Guru Ji's Family Tree

[Bundha]

Vampire,

one has to sure shake ones head at your thinking.

<<<<The laava by Guru Ramdas Ji was not a wedding shabad between man and woman, but describes ones union . with God the almighty. You can twist it all you want to suit your preconceived views but it does not make it the truth. >>>

The Lava describes the union between man and God, agreed, but they were meant to be used as the basis for Anand Karaj. In the union between a man and a woman, Guru Ram das Ji were not going to write about this, instead they took it up a level and described the stages to reach God, this is fairly straight forward, puzzled you cannot see this.

As for your dates of the Bhagats, depending on which source you read they are widely varying so you cannot pin then down as you are doing.

[waaheguroo]

DHAN DHAN SAHIB SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE MAHARAAJ! (all 1430 angs)

Main point is get the Brahm Gian from it.

8) Balarama, the elder brother of Sri Krishna, is the eighth incarnation. His adventures include the slaying of the ape Dvivida and the demon Dhenuka, shaking the ramparts of Hastinapura (the capital city of the Pandavas) and dragging the river Yamuna out of its course.

9) Sri Krishna, the ninth incarnation of Lord Vishnu, is the most popular. He was the charioteer of Arjuna in the battle of Kurukshetra in Mahabharata. To the Hindus, Sri Krishna is the supreme statesman, warrior, hero, philosopher and teacher. He is the great expounder of the 'song celestial', the Bhagavad Gita.

10) The tenth Avatara is Kalki. It is believed that he will descend upon the earth at the end of the present age (Kali Yuga). Riding on the back of a white horse, with a drawn sword, he will destroy the enemies of Dharma and re-establish it in all its glory.

Answers:

8) Hindu myths and legends (you can beleive them if you want).

9) Lakshman was caught sleeping with Sita. Krishna did the same with several milkmaids.

10) So why create the Khalsa?

[Bijla Singh]

To the alex who says that the bhagats held Guru Nanak to be their Guru.

Please pay attention to the dates of birth on this link.

http://www.punjabilok.com/faith/sikh/histo...ranth_sahib.htm

Farid Ji was born in the 12th century so how could he be a 'sikh' of Guru Nanak Ji? c300 years prior to Guru Nanak Ji

Namdev born in the 13th century - 200 years prior to Guru Nanak Ji

Trilochan a contemporary of Namdev - 13th century

To the other alex who says that Kabir Ji was not a follower of Ramanand.

Read the same link under Kabir Ji.

So your source of information is online links? It shows how much you really have studied this topic. If Bhagat Fareed Ji was born 300 years prior to Guru Sahib then tell me which script did he use to write his bani? Why is language in his bani so similar to Guru Sahib's bani? After 300 years Punjbai has changed so much then why did it not change from Fareed Ji's time to Guru Sahib's time? If Fareed Ji was a muslim then why is he using words like "Gur", "Prabh" and "Saadh" which are never used by Muslims and they don't believe in having a Guru? Kabir's bani is very similar to Guru Sahib's bani in language and viyakaran. So who taught Bhagat Ji's Gurmukhi and Gurbani viyakaran? His uses of many Punjabi words which are not found in other languages is the clear proof that he was a disciple of Guru Sahib. You need to study this topic first.

The laava by Guru Ramdas Ji was not a wedding shabad between man and woman, but describes ones union with God the almighty. You can twist it all you want to suit your preconceived views but it does not make it the truth.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Laava#First_Laav

Anand Karaj is established on the ideals of soul merging with God. It is a spiritual path of two bodies merging into one and seeking salvation together. Historical texts prove that Guru Sahib took laavan around Gurbani. I will debate you on this anywhere anytime.

[apne]

One has to shake one's head in disbelief at the distortion of Sikhi being undertaken by members of Sikhsangat.

To the alex who says that the bhagats held Guru Nanak to be their Guru.

Please pay attention to the dates of birth on this link.

http://www.punjabilok.com/faith/sikh/histo...ranth_sahib.htm

Farid Ji was born in the 12th century so how could he be a 'sikh' of Guru Nanak Ji? c300 years prior to Guru Nanak Ji

Namdev born in the 13th century - 200 years prior to Guru Nanak Ji

Trilochan a contemporary of Namdev - 13th century

To the other alex who says that Kabir Ji was not a follower of Ramanand.

Read the same link under Kabir Ji.

The laava by Guru Ramdas Ji was not a wedding shabad between man and woman, but describes ones union with God the almighty. You can twist it all you want to suit your preconceived views but it does not make it the truth.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Laava#First_Laav

Good Day

You could do better than quoting a site that is more than reliable. Kabirji is generally held to be born before Guru Nanak. The Sikh writers who wrote about compilation of Guru Granth Sahib, wrote how Bhagat Kabir lead all the Bhagats in the court of Guru Arjan and requested him to include their hymns. These writers were well aware that Kabir was long dead before compilation of Adi Granth and they presented it as an ethereal meeting between Bhagats and Guru Arjan.

Bhagat Kabir has never mentioned of Ramanand as his guru, anywhere. This is a false tradition. Read Kabir ji's hymns and you will see how he rejects the beliefs and faiths of people such as Ramanand.

Guru Nanak was guru of Kabir through Bani, Guru of Kabir was Bani Satguru and Guru Nanak is Satguru yugo yug atal, Guru Nanak is bani, Bani is Guru Nanak. Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani. Dhan Dhan Sri Sri Guru Nanak ji maharaj. Read arta of Guru Nanak, written by Baba Sri Chand ji maharaj. Baba Sri Chand ji explains that Guru Nanak controls the universe, all the stars , sun , moon are doing arta of Guru Nanak who is Bani, Satguru and God.

On a side note: There is no conclusive and historical proof that a person named Kabir ever existed historically. Bhagat ji is a tradition, like Ram Chander and Krishna. Some historians question his existence.

[Matheen]

On a side note: There is no conclusive and historical proof that a person named Kabir ever existed historically. Bhagat ji is a tradition, like Ram Chander and Krishna. Some historians question his existence.

Then those historians are blind. Gurbani makes it clear that Bhagat Kabir Ji existed. Who do Kabirpanthis follow and who wrote Kabir Ji's Bani?

First time I've heard this.......

[apne]

On a side note: There is no conclusive and historical proof that a person named Kabir ever existed historically. Bhagat ji is a tradition, like Ram Chander and Krishna. Some historians question his existence.

Then those historians are blind. Gurbani makes it clear that Bhagat Kabir Ji existed. Who do Kabirpanthis follow and who wrote Kabir Ji's Bani?

First time I've heard this.......

Yes, but there is no conclusive DOB of Bhagat ji.

[Matheen]

Yes, but there is no conclusive DOB of Bhagat ji.

The same can be said for many people today - my Grandparents weren't sure of their dates of birth either. It doesn't mean anything.

[apne]

Yes, but there is no conclusive DOB of Bhagat ji.

The same can be said for many people today - my Grandparents weren't sure of their dates of birth either. It doesn't mean anything.

I remember when i was a small kid and i would ask my great grandfather a question. He would say like " it was during the year there were floods, or it was in the year when your chacha got married, or it was the year when our buffallo gave birth to a calf, or it was the year when there was great harvest, or it was the year when this happenned or that" This is how India worked for ages. :WW:

And i was not questioning bhagat kabir ji's existence. I was answering 'The Vampire' that his methodology is of no use. <_<

[N30S1NGH]

One has to shake one's head in disbelief at the distortion of Sikhi being undertaken by members of Sikhsangat.

To the alex who says that the bhagats held Guru Nanak to be their Guru.

Please pay attention to the dates of birth on this link.

http://www.punjabilok.com/faith/sikh/histo...ranth_sahib.htm

Farid Ji was born in the 12th century so how could he be a 'sikh' of Guru Nanak Ji? c300 years prior to Guru Nanak Ji

Namdev born in the 13th century - 200 years prior to Guru Nanak Ji

Trilochan a contemporary of Namdev - 13th century

To the other alex who says that Kabir Ji was not a follower of Ramanand.

Read the same link under Kabir Ji.

The laava by Guru Ramdas Ji was not a wedding shabad between man and woman, but describes ones union with God the almighty. You can twist it all you want to suit your preconceived views but it does not make it the truth.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Laava#First_Laav

Good Day

You could do better than quoting a site that is more than reliable. Kabirji is generally held to be born before Guru Nanak. The Sikh writers who wrote about compilation of Guru Granth Sahib, wrote how Bhagat Kabir lead all the Bhagats in the court of Guru Arjan and requested him to include their hymns. These writers were well aware that Kabir was long dead before compilation of Adi Granth and they presented it as an ethereal meeting between Bhagats and Guru Arjan.

Bhagat Kabir has never mentioned of Ramanand as his guru, anywhere. This is a false tradition. Read Kabir ji's hymns and you will see how he rejects the beliefs and faiths of people such as Ramanand.

Guru Nanak was guru of Kabir through Bani, Guru of Kabir was Bani Satguru and Guru Nanak is Satguru yugo yug atal, Guru Nanak is bani, Bani is Guru Nanak. Bani Guru Guru Hai Bani. Dhan Dhan Sri Sri Guru Nanak ji maharaj. Read arta of Guru Nanak, written by Baba Sri Chand ji maharaj. Baba Sri Chand ji explains that Guru Nanak controls the universe, all the stars , sun , moon are doing arta of Guru Nanak who is Bani, Satguru and God.

On a side note: There is no conclusive and historical proof that a person named Kabir ever existed historically. Bhagat ji is a tradition, like Ram Chander and Krishna. Some historians question his existence.

Again no references provided.. i wonder if you guys even read gurbani or just read conspiracy theories written by new age scholars:

This is a part taken from discussion i had with bijla singh which he recommended others to read upon:

anyway:

As i stand by fully atal, gurbani has three different context of satguru (according to research i managed to do so far).

a) Akaal Purkh in bhagata bani.

b) Satguru Nanak dev ji by bhats as well as sri guru arjan dev ji- aad gureh nameh, jagud guru nameh, satguru nameh, sri gurdev eh nameh(sri guru ram das ji).

c) Bhagat di bani/Bhai Gurdas Ji varan reffering satguru to avtars, bhagat ramanand by his shish(disciple-bhagat kabir). just like gurbani uses sant to Paratma(Vahiguroo), Guru Maharaj(Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Guru Ram Das Ji- Bhag Hoya Gur Sant Millaya), Sant who have got bhramgyan.

I think bijla singh have disagreement with me on c). I think we both agree on a and b).

Here is first gurbani quote by bhai gurdas ji regarding context of guru/satguru:

Here bhai gurdas ji talking about bhagit kabir ji encounter with his guru ramanand ji. The line in bold, bhai gurdas talks about that the wondrous sargun form of guru- referring to bhagat ramand ji, even turns even animals and ghost into angels. Look at the theme of this shabad, its starts with bhagat kabir encounter with his guru- ramamand, just read just line before the bold one, its talk about in metaphoric language, when iron touches stone becomes gold just like guru- reffering to bhagat ramamand ji samaratha turns even animals and ghost into angels, kabir is after all human, and line after- Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord. the disiple- bhagat kabir and guru being his vidya gurdev. 2nd last line distincation is directly made - meeting wonderous guru and merges into wonderour lord. And last line- after merging- Bhai Gurdas ji says- Ram and Kabir became indentical

hoe birakath banaarasee rehi(n)dhaa raamaana(n)dh gusaaee||

Being detached from the world, Brahmin Ramanand lived in Varanasi (Kasi).

a(n)mrith vaelae out(h)akae jaa(n)dhaa ga(n)gaa nhaavan thaaee||

He would rise early in the morning and go to the Ganges to bathe.

ago(n) hee dhae jaaeikae la(n)maa piaa kabeer thithhaaee||

Once even before Ramanand, Kabir went there and lay in the way.

pairee(n) ttu(n)b out(h)aaliaa bolahu raam sikh samajhaaee||

Touching with his feet Ramanand awakened Kabir and told him to speak ‘Ram’, the true spiritual teaching.

jiou(n) lohaa paaras shhuhae cha(n)dhan vaas ni(n)m mehikaaee||

As the iron touched by philosopher’s stone becomes gold and the margosa tree (Azadirachta indica) is made fragrant by sandal.

pasoo paraethahu(n) dhaev kar poorae sathigur dhee vaddiaaee||

The wondrous Guru turns even animals and ghosts into angels.

acharaj no acharaj milai visamaadhae visamaadh milaaee||

Meeting the wonderous Guru the disciple wonderfully merges into the great wonderous Lord.

jharanaa jharadhaa nijharahu(n) guramukh baanee agharr gharraaee||

Then from the Self springs a fountain and the words of the gurmukhs shape a beautiful form

raam kabeerai bhaedh n bhaaee ||aa||

Now Ram and Kabir became identical.

2nd gurbani quote regarding context of satguru/guru.

taken from faridkoti teeka:

This one, kabir ji being in mukht state: saying if jaigaso/i(student) finds an satguru(stating lashkhan of true satguru) who is - a)bhram surarti - satguru who has his surati with bhram b) bhram nesta- satguru who have full faith that without bhram(vahiguroo) there is nothing, there will be nothing. If jaiagaso/i finds that kind of satguru and satguru becomes happy with that jaigaso and gave that jaigaso final atam updesh then this jaiagaso find its very easy to get gyan mukhti and through this jaigaso goes to sehaj saroop and spent his time in ever lasting bliss.

In this quote, bhagat kabir talks about lachan of satguru and its milap benefits according to shaastar. In this context,ge is referring to anyone prani who have quality that was stated- bhram nesta/bhram surarti as satguru.

3rd gurbani quote regarding context of satguru taken from faridkoti teeka:

Again in this quote, satguru is not reffered to nirgun paratma but reffered to sargun saroop of vahiguroo, since he had guru ramamand which gave him bairaag, to enforce importance of guru- he is saying without satguru updesh, bairaag is not possible. With porbale karam(good karams from previous), you get to meet satguru- possibly explaining the state- that he did. At the last, kabir is giving updesh to bairaagi to beg to vahiguroo - with grace of satguru and with help of satguru, may i across worldy ocean. I shall follow discourse of satguru.

4th gurbani quote regarding satguru context from faridkoti teeka

Again this quote, gurparsad is referred to sargun saroop of vahiguroo, by his parsad(kirpa). Jaiagaso have through guru kirpa(sargun saroop), he has (desire to meet god/asa), and he is niras(from duniya, padaratha). For him, he is seeing real truth.

Jaigaso who has tasted raam naam, that person helps other to cross ocean.

In conclusion, i have provided you four quotes of satguru- first refers to bhagat ramanand, second refers anyone who has the qualities above, third refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo- satguru, fourth also refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo.

Since you stated earlier sri guru nanak dev ji before they took physical birth in 1469, were nirankari jot which i dont have problem with that, what i highly disagree is that you made satguru nanak dev ji as to one true prophet all ages as i discussed but anyway, if you satguru nanak dev ji was nirankari jot before they took birth in 1469 then, i rest my case because above 4 quotes (1 by bhai gurdas ji, 3 by bhagat kabir) regarding satguru directly refers to sargun saroop of vahiguroo so with its help, one can merge into nirgun paratma.

This is not just my home baked theory.. this three context of satguru in sri guru granth sahib and fourth context of satguru refer to khalsa(bhramgyani) used in sri sarbloh granth is widely accepted by puratan samparda's- taksal, nirmale, sevapanthis. Here is the discussion i had with sant jagjit singh ji on this topic not once but three times in a row:

Listen to all three parts clearly:

part 1:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audi...0singh%20ji.mp3

part 2:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audi...%20part%202.mp3

part 3:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audi...%20part%203.mp3

Sikhs who are upasak of prof sahib singh and upasak of vikayaran should suck up "fact" that there is more than one interpertation of gurbani and stop pushing their ultra tat khalsa extermist views on others and act hostile when they hear different interpertation backed by not just one samparda but four samparda's on topic like these. I am glad samparda's teeka from time to time have challenge mindset of people who think there is only one interpertation of gurbani pads.

[Matheen]

Namastang Ji, that's all good but one thing that all the sampardas are also united on is the fact that outside of Gursikhi, there is no path to mukti.

You need to think about why this is.