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It seems like some people here are misguided. You can believe in anything you want whether idol worship or whatever but one thing I would like to clear up is that Sikhism is against .........................

....................................., get Naam and do Simran. Follow the Rehat Maryada Panj Pyare tell you and let Guru Ji do the rest.

That's all I wanted to say. Do whatever you want and believe in whatever you want but does not mean what you do or believe in is what Sikhi says.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

gr8 post ^_^ .So there is nuthin like dhanna jatt brought stone from some pujari... right?

Then why do we get the stories like dhanna worshiped stone from sikh sites.And I have heard this thing from many many kathawachaks when i was in India.This is the first time I m listening that these stories are false.

But I beleive u because ...gurbani says so.

I think we shud contact those websites and correct them becuase it will creat confusions....what do ya think?

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Guest mehtab

Balwinder Singh Posted on Apr 16 2004, 01:49 PM

So there is nuthin like dhanna jatt brought stone from some pujari... right?

Then why do we get the stories like dhanna worshiped stone from sikh sites.And I have heard this thing from many many kathawachaks when i was in India.This is the first time I m listening that these stories are false.

i dont really know if anyone implied that the stories are false, coz Bhai Gurdas Jee himself talks bout the same story of dhanna bhagat.
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Balwinder Singh Posted on Apr 16 2004, 01:49 PM
So there is nuthin like dhanna jatt brought stone from some pujari... right?

Then why do we get the stories like dhanna worshiped stone from sikh sites.And I have heard this thing from many many kathawachaks when i was in India.This is the first time I m listening that these stories are false.

i dont really know if anyone implied that the stories are false, coz Bhai Gurdas Jee himself talks bout the same story of dhanna bhagat.

Rochak veer ji...I got this feeling from pakhandebunga ji's post .He wrote something like people make their own stories or something.Thats why I asked him if all sikh sites are wrong.I am sorry if pakhandebunga ji implied something else there.

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I did not write the post to argue. I wrote what I know. I do not believe Bhagat Dhanna Ji worshipped any stones because Sikhi is totally against it.

"sources ? and besides, Guruji holds women in great respect, and u making it sound like some sort of punishment to be born as woman"

No I did not. this is how to took it. Where did i say Guru Ji did not hold any respect for women? you want the shabad, here it is.

Gond:

One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox,

is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. ||1||

I take only the Name of the One Lord.

I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. ||1||Pause||

That man who chants ""Shiva, Shiva"", and meditates on him,

is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. ||2||

One who worships the Great Goddess Maya

will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3||

There you have it. Being reincarnated as a woman does not mean a punishment but Guru Ji says it does not do any good because you are taking birth again so the best thing is to worship Waheguru.

"yes it was bhagat naamdev, himself a hindu, who said so. But do u know the deeper meaning behind this tuk? "

I know the meaning and no Naamdev was not a Hindu. being born in a hindu family does not make you a hindu. he never did anything that hindus do i.e. idol worship etc.

"The reason muslim has been called one-eyed is coz they dont worship idols."

very funny so all Gurus and Sikhs are one eyed since they do not worship idols. The reason Muslims are called one eyed is because th

ey think Allah is only in Masjid and lives in the west a place called Kabba and they do not see the God everywhere.

"Meaning that those hindus who follow religion blindly without any love are blind"

No, I disagree. Idol worship is blindness. God is One and only One not like some 330 millions gods and goddess in hinduism. As Jaap Sahib says, "Anaik Hein Fir Aik Hein." But again He/She is ONE. Idol worship is not accepted in Sikhism. Guru Ji says worship God with love. I say it again Worship GOD not idols. Love comes from Naam Simran not by idol worship. A person can practice football everyday for five hours with much concentration and focus but without a coach he would never know if he is practicing right. Just like this, without having a true Guru Guru Granth Sahib Ji we will never know how to love God and how to worship Him. Gurbani teaches us love and how to worship God. What can idols teach you since they do not even speak. they get dirty then how do you expect those idols to clean the filth of your mind and teach you about love? not everything is about love. I say I love God but if I do not wake up in Amrit Vela, do not do Simran and do not do my Nitnem will I ever attain my goal? I don't think so. I have to wake up and do amrit vela and read Bani and how do I know that because my True Guru teaches me that and after I do all these things then I will know what true love of God is. it does not come in your heart just like that. Then how do you expect me to believe that Hindus doing idol worship with love will get there? Who is teaching them? if you say vedas, purans, simirtis, upnishds then My Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejecting all those books says "Simrat Shastar Baid Sabhay Bahu Bhaid Kahe, Hum Ek Na Janeyo". All Gurus praised only one God.

Bhai Gurdas Ji says "Millions of Vedas and Puranas are insignificant before the praises of the Lord. "

Some Bhagats say this.

"The four Vedas, the Simritees and the Puraanas, Vishnu the Lord of Lakshmi and Lakshmi herself - none of t

hem know the Lord. ||3||" Bhagat Kabeer Ji

"What is the use of reading the Vedas and the Puraanas? It is like loading a donkey with sandalwood." Bhagat Kabeer Ji

"There are countless Vedas, Puraanas and Shaastras; I do not sing their songs and hymns." Bhagat Naam Dev Ji

And also proves they were not hindus since they never accepted hindus scriptures and never followed hinduism.

So idol worship with or without love is nothing but foolishness on part of those who do it. Some vedas talk about God little bit but nothing from Hindu philisophy is accepted. I do not say this Bhai Gurdas Ji does by syaing "Mareyaa Sikka Jagat Vich Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaiyaa" So Guru Ji started a new religion a true way of life.

At last I am not trying to point my finger at anyone saying who is right or wrong and nor do I say any web site is wrong. Bhagat Dhanna Ji worshipped only one God and had darshan by doing Simran. Is there any other way in Sikhi? If yes then what is it? and Why didn't Panj Pyare tell me about the other ways? The question is not whether Bhagat Ji brought the stone home the question is how he got darshan and the answer is simple Naam Simran. It is The Only Way. What I know is Bhagat Ji did not do any idol worship. Some Hindu Brahmins wrote it to prove that idol worship is not a pakhand. Many of you have probably heard that Bhagat Fareed Ji spent 36 years of his life in jungles and did Bhagtee. Well if you did not know then I tell you it is a fake one. So my point is people do make up stories and it is stories like these that brain wash people and lead people to believe that Sikhism is just a sect of Hinduism.

Those who do Nitnem of Panj banis in the morning must know this because tenth Nanak's Bani Tavparsaad Swaiyaas say "Kou Butaan Ko Poojat Hai Pass, Kou Mirtan Ko Poojan Dhaiyo, Koor Kireya Urjheo Sab Hi Jagg Siri Bhagwaan Ko Bhaid Na Paiyo"

Literally meaning those who worship idols are animals. "Pass" means animals. Clearly this

shabad means that those who worship idols, dead bodies have not learned the truth and they are nothing but animals. They are busy in "Koor Kireya" and they have not understood the reality or the True Waheguru.

Sikhism is a separate religion and will always be. No idol worship, no fasts or dieties, no blindness and no polytheism. Just one Waheguru all prevading, love, humanity, unity, Naam Simran etc.. This is what Sikhi is all about.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Some quotes from Gurbani.

“You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God. Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways.” (Page 332)

"Why worship gods and goddesses, O Siblings of Destiny? What can we ask of them? What can they give us? The stone gods are washed with water, O Siblings of Destiny, but they just sink in the water." (Page 637)

"They who say the stone is a god; in vain is their service. He who falls at the feet of the stone; vain goes his labor. My Lord ever speaks. The Lord gives gifts to all the living beings. The Lord is within, but the blind one knows not. Deluded by doubt, he is caught in a noose. The stone speaks not, nor gives anything. In vain are the ceremonies of the idolater, and fruitless his service." (Page 1160)

"The blind ignorant ones stray in doubt and so deluded, deluded they pluck flowers for worship. They worship the lifeless stones and adore tombs. Their service all goes in vain." (Page 1264)

Do not listen to me. Listen to Gurbani and Gurbani says those who worship idols are blind ignorants and fools. Nothing more authentic than Gurbani. So you can either believe in that story or Gurbani. The choice is yours.

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Guest mehtab

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

i agree with most of what u said...and for ur information i m not propagating or encouraging idol worship here as i myself dont do it or support it or encourage it...what i dont do is label others as wrong...if its in their fate, they will be blessed by Guruji to come to Sikhi...i m not a fanatic who is going to tell others that their religions are wrong...yes the bhagats who rejected idol worship cannot be called hindus...in case u didn't know, there have been thousands of bhagats in india, most were hindus who achieved mukti and yet their verses are not in SGGS...so does that imply that they were not true bhagats?

Do not listen to me. Listen to Gurbani and Gurbani says those who worship idols are blind ignorants and fools. Nothing more authentic than Gurbani. So you can either believe in that story or Gurbani. The choice is yours.
who is saying anything against Gurbani? Guru Tegh Bahadur gave His life for these same idol-worshipping people, and so i will not call them or anyone else as wrong...as i said, if its in their fate, and if they are fortunate, Guruji will bring them to Sikhi Himself...u or me pointing a finger at them and mocking their beliefs or calling them wrong will only make them hate Sikhs.
I did not write the post to argue. I wrote what I know. I do not believe Bhagat Dhanna Ji worshipped any stones because Sikhi is totally against it.

check this out

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=5771&Format=2

baamhan poojai dhaevathae dhha(n)naa goo charaavan aavai||

dhha(n)nai ddit(h)aa chalith eaeh pushhai baamhan aakh sunaavai||

t(h)aakur dhee saevaa karae jo eishhae soee fal paavai||

dhha(n)naa karadhaa jodharree mai(n) bh dhaeh eik jo thudhh bhaavai||

paathhar eik lapaett kar dhae dhha(n)nae no(n) gail shhuddaavai||

t(h)aakur no(n) nhaavaalakae shhaahi rottee lai bhog charrhaavai||

hathh jorr mi(n)nath karae pairee(n) pai pai bahuth manaavai||

hou(n) bee moo(n)h n jut(h)aalasaa(n) thoo(n) rut(h)aa mai(n) kihu n sukhaavai||

gosee(n) parathaakh hoe rottee khaae shhaahi muhi laavai||

bholaa bhaao govi(n)dh milaavai ||aa||

A brahman would worship gods (in the form of stone idols) where Dhanna used to graze his cow.

On seeing his worship, Dhanna asked the brahman what he was doing.

“Service to the Thakur (God) gives the desired fruit,” replied the brahman.

Dhanna requested, “O brahman, if you agree kindly give one to me.”

The brahman rolled a stone, gave it to Dhanna and thus got rid of him.

Dhanna bathed the Thakur and offered him bread and buttermilk.

With folded hands and falling at the feet of the stone he begged for his service to be accepted.

Dhanna said, “I will also not eat because how can I be happy if you are annoyed.”

(Seeing his true and loving devotion) God was forced to appear and eat his bread

and buttermilk.

In fact, innocence like that of Dhanna makes the sight of the Lord available.

See now i m referring to Bhai Gurdas Jee's vaaraan, and Guruji Himself has said that those are the keys to understanding Gurbani. Don't misunderstand and say that i m again voting for idol worship coz i m not.

Notice the end of the tuk

(Seeing his true and loving devotion) God was forced to appear and eat his bread and buttermilk.

In fact, innocence like that of Dhanna makes the sight of the Lord available

True and loving devotion and innocence was what made God appear. Yes idol worship is fruitless i agree. If someone just hates hindus and wants to speak against them, their religion, their practices, then they better check the definition of a Sikh. i cannot and will not mock or label anyone's religion. i love my Sikhi and do not follow anything from any other religion. My Guru taught me to be tolerant and respectful of other religions. Sikhi as u rightly said is different from all other religions. The sakhi of dhanna bhagat is what i just quoted as said by Bhai Gurdas Jee. The hindu organizations who want to call Sikhi as a sect of hinduism are already failing in all their attempts, and so i wonder how can they use this sakhi to prove anything.

And just in case u didn't know, the prayer Dhanna bhagat did before God has been included in SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...D=2642&Format=2

dhha(n)naa ||

gopaal thaeraa aarathaa ||

jo jan thumaree bhagath kara(n)thae thin kae kaaj savaarathaa ||1|| rehaao ||

dhaal seedhhaa maago gheeo ||

hamaraa khusee karai nith jeeo ||

panheeaa shhaadhan neekaa || anaaj mago sath see kaa ||1||

goo bhais mago laa

vaeree ||

eik thaajan thuree cha(n)gaeree ||

ghar kee geehan cha(n)gee ||

jan dhha(n)naa laevai ma(n)gee ||2||4||

Dhannaa:

O Lord of the world, this is Your lamp-lit worship service.

You are the Arranger of the affairs of those humble beings who perform Your devotional worship service. ||1||Pause||

Lentils, flour and ghee - these things, I beg of You.

My mind shall ever be pleased.

Shoes, fine clothes, and grain of seven kinds - I beg of You. ||1||

A milk cow, and a water buffalo, I beg of You,

and a fine Turkestani horse.

A good wife to care for my home

- Your humble servant Dhanna begs for these things, Lord. ||2||4||

You are a Sikh, i salute u. You follow nothing but Sikhi, i bow before u. But if u consider urself superior to others, mock and badmouth their beliefs no matter how wrong they may be in ur opinion, then i m sorry i dont agree with u.

Lets try being proper Sikhs, Sikhs of Guru Tegh Bahadur, who was so accepting that He sacrificed His life for religious freedom (i dont wanna say for hinduism coz again u might come up in arms).

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Regarding Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Vaar, there is something more you do not know and when I have time I will upload the Katha which will explain the truth about the story. Gurbani says Bhagat Ji did Bhagtee and had darshan. The prayer is what Bhagat Ji said after he had darshan. Bhai Gurdas Ji will not write something that directly conflicts with Gurbani. I wrote what I believe in already so no point to argue.

I never spoke against hinduism. I wrote what Gurbani says unless you can show me where I wrote something against hinduism and making fun of their religion. Yes they can do whatever they want and I am not judging anyone but a wrong thing is wrong. idol worship is wrong and Gurbani says so. therefore I call it wrong. I am not telling anyone not to do it but I do call it wrong. Ninth Guru Nanak gave sacrifice to show that forcing religion and killing innocent people on the name of God is wrong whether it was hindus or muslims. he did not like Hinduism more than Islam. He loved all equally. if muslims were in the same situation he would have done the same thing. So sacrifice was not for hinduism but for freedom as you stated.

I do not hate hindus but I am against indian government and those who are anti-sikhi. Majority of the hindus already hate Sikhs because Gurbani condemns hindu beliefs. I do respect other religions but certainly not willing to accept their beliefs. that's all.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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