A confusion

[naam_jap]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

The Lord of the Universe met him personally; Dhanna was so very blessed. ||4||2||

milay partakh gusaa-ee-aa Dhannaa vadbhaagaa. ||4||2||

page 488

The pandit who does idol worship knows that there is no God in the idol, If he thought there was then he would wait for God to appear from the idol and accept his food.

Idol worship is a superstition for the pandit, if he puts his feet against the idol, he fears something bad will happen. Its out of superstition that the pandit worships it

Bottom Line is Idol worship wont bring you any fruit and dhanna Jatt is not a case of idol worship but a story of immense love

[Guest mehtab]

naam_jap Posted on Apr 27 2004, 08:28 PM

Bottom Line is Idol worship wont bring you any fruit and dhanna Jatt is not a case of idol worship but a story of immense love

thats it :umm: chapter close :D

[hajara]

My Guru Gobind Singh Ji rejecting all those books says "Simrat Shastar Baid Sabhay Bahu Bhaid Kahe, Hum Ek Na Janeyo". All Gurus praised only one God.

Bhai Gurdas Ji says "Millions of Vedas and Puranas are insignificant before the praises of the Lord. "

Some Bhagats say this.

"The four Vedas, the Simritees and the Puraanas, Vishnu the Lord of Lakshmi and Lakshmi herself - none of them know the Lord. ||3||" Bhagat Kabeer Ji

"What is the use of reading the Vedas and the Puraanas? It is like loading a donkey with sandalwood." Bhagat Kabeer Ji

"There are countless Vedas, Puraanas and Shaastras; I do not sing their songs and hymns." Bhagat Naam Dev Ji

I do not know what the vedas are or what they talk about except for what bani says about them. Now while it is true they stand disregarded as nothing in parts of Guru Granth sahib ji and Dasam Granth Ji while in other parts of dasam granth it tells you by reading the chandi (durga), ram avtar episode sincerely one becomes liberated and some shabads inside Guru Granth Sahib say the following -

1)This Shabad is by Bhatt Sal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1406

thoo sathigur chahu jugee aap aapae paramaesar ||

You are the True Guru, throughout the four ages; You Yourself are the Transcendent Lord.

sur nar saadhhik

sidhh sikh saeva(n)th dhhureh dhhur ||

The angelic beings, seekers, Siddhas and Sikhs have served You, since the very beginning of time.

aadh jugaadh anaadh kalaa dhhaaree thrihu loah ||

You are the Primal Lord God, from the very beginning, and throughout the ages; Your Power supports the three worlds.

agam nigam oudhharan jaraa ja(n)mihi aaroah ||

You are Inaccessible; You are the Saving Grace of the Vedas. You have conquered old age and death.

gur amaradhaas thhir thhapiao paragaamee thaaran tharan ||

Guru Amar Daas has permanently established You; You are the Emancipator, to carry all across to the other side.

agh a(n)thak badhai n saly kav gur raamadhaas thaeree saran ||2||60||

So speaks SALL the poet: O Guru Raam Daas, You are the Destroyer of sins; I seek Your Sanctuary

2)byd kqyb isimRiq siB swsq ien@ piVAw mukiq n hoeI]eyku AKru jo gurmuiK jwpY iqs kI inrml soeI:One may read all the books of the Vedas and Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.), the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation. One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation (sggs 747).

3)byd biKAwn krq swDU jn BwghIn smJq nhI Klu]pRym Bgiq rwcy jn nwnk hir ismrin dhn Bey ml: The Holy Saints preach the teachings of the Vedas, but the unfortunate fools do not understand them. Servant Nanak is absorbed in Prema-Bhagti (loving devotional worship); meditating on God, one’s inner pollution is burnt away (sggs 717).

4)isMimRiq swsq byd bIcwry]jpIAY nwmu ijqu pwir auqwryThe Simritees, Shaastras and Vedas reflect that with the Naam Japa you will be saved and carried across (sggs 804).

5)swDo rwm srin ibsrwmw]byd purwn pVy ko ieh gun ismry hir ko nwmw: O Saadhus, rest and peace are in the Sanctuary of the Lord. This is the blessing of studying the Vedas and the Puraanas, t

hat you may meditate on God's Name (sggs 220).

6)piV piV poQI isMimRiq pwTw]byd purwx pVY suix Qwtw]ibnu rs rwqy mnu bhu nwtw: You may read, recite and study the scriptures, the Simritees, Vedas and Puraanas; but without being imbued with the Divine Essence, the mind wanders endlessly (sggs 226).

7)Do not say that the Vedas and the Kateb (Bible, Quraan, etc.) are false. Those who do not reflect and contemplate them are false (sggs 1350).

8)EAMkwir byd inrmey: Onkaari Beda nirmaye: God created the Vedas (sggs 930).

9)suixAY swsq isimRiq vyd]nwnk Bgqw sdw ivgwsu: Listening—the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas. O Nanak, the devotees are forever in bliss (sggs 2)

in another post you also claimed nothing in hinduism was accepted. In Gurbani sense although a lot of hinduism practices are rejected along with theories of avtars but also Gurbani does say the following

This Shabad is by Bhatt Kal in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1390

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuva(n)s kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

dhuaapur kirasan muraar ka(n)s kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

kalijug pramaan naanak gur a(n)gadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command

jey menu rss agent bolna jee pharkai kh

aidoh, but no one can call these shabads rss can they? or the Gurus who selected them to be inside bani?Gurbani speaks from many angles on the same topic while we all agree idol worship is wrong full stop.

Not everything in hinduism ccould have been rejected for the last shabad to be there as well as narad muni ( a hindu god) and Guru Arjun dev jis conversation in spiritual trance on rag mala in which narad muni requested Guru ji to have rag mala with bani according to the audio tape "gurmat parchar ninth canto" by sant jarnail singh bhhindrawaley. ( if the tape is wrong i welcome any singh from any jatha or taksal to correct me, this can be confirmed by all older singhs who have the tape).Now all the dasam granth posters who mann dasam granth what about the end of each chapter on ram, krishan and durga? At the end of each in dasam its saying if you read the katha on ram/ krishan/durga sincerely you will be liberated? This means you agree that while a gursikh has to do simran, bani, bhandagi day in day out, life after life to be liberated the shortcut route just read the katha on ram etc once sincerely to get liberated. thats what dasam bani says do you also mann that? if i had bhai jodh singhs translation of dasam bani on both vols on me i would give you the page number right now. If you got a copy go to the end of each of those chapters.

Going by both the Guru Granth Sahib ji and dasam Granths then topics mentioned cant always be static.

[Singhnee]

sangat jio, instead of just looking at one pankti ( line) of a shabad, look at the whole shabad because one can not tell what the meaning of that line is, as every line in a shabad relates to the main idea or rahao (pause) lines. so by posting one line from here and there can't prove anything. also, sorry if i offended any one of you by posting that shabad.

QUOTE 

Page 830

Listening to Naarad's teachings, the child Dhroo was absorbed in deep meditation. ||1||

How can one who instructed a whole Hindu Nation into blindness teach a child Dhroo into meditation?

Again, please look at the moral or main idea of that shabad. also, narad does not have the same meaning in both shabads.

i m sorry if i offended anyone i do not want to start anything here. lets just close this chapter like rochak said. unlike some of us i do not have time or knowledge to write long posts to prove my point. all of us have different point of views, coming from different backgrounds. i respect every one of you. i can see that we will not gain anything from this discussion, as it will eventually turn into a hindu sikh competition, which i know no one wants to get into or not :umm: anyways, may waheguru bless us all with naam and piyar that got

Bhagat Dhanna Ji dharshan of Waheguru.

[Bijla Singh]

hajara singh, i did not mean to attack your family. I just wrote what Gurbani says. Also, a person who does not do naam simran at all is an animal too because Guru Ji says if you work hard to take care of your family and children then animals do it too so how does that make you different from animals? Guru Ji says only doing Naam Simran makes you a human being because in Punjabi a human is called "Banda" and Banda is someone who does bandgee "Kar Banday toon Bandgee". Regarding the shabads you provided well, I did not have the time to read them all but I have read most of the shabads regarding hindusim and islam. Gurbani does not conflict with each other like calling hindus "blind" in one shabad and priase their vedas in another. In Gurbani the word "vedas" do not mean hindu scriptures. for example in Anand Sahib it says "Vedan Mein Naam Uttam So Suneh Nahin.." the word "vedan" does not refer to hindu vedas. "Ram" is not hindu god Raam Chand. Guru Ji says "Ram gaeyoo rawan gaeyoo" so Ram=Rawan in Gurbani. Ram Chand is not given any higher status in Gurbani. Ram is a name of God. Rishi Vaalmick who wrote Ramayan 10,000 years (i think) before it took place and he received the name "Ram" from a group of holy saints whom he was trying to rob. So the name "Ram" existed way before Raam Chand took birth. same applies to krishan but Guru Ji calls God "Krishan" and calls himself Gopi. Just a metaphore. regarding chandi, durga and bhawanee these are not hindus goddess but Guru Ji gave these words to "Kirpan". "Tuhee Nishanee Jeet Kee". Dasam bani does not praise any hindu gods or goddess. As I stated Guru Ji narrated these stories but when it came to whether Guru Ji believed in those or not Guru Ji

rejected their existance in His Gurbani and rejected believing in vedas and stuff. Guru Ji cannot praise hindu goddess at one place and praise them at another place. Gurbani does not conflict with each other. I again recommend reading book by Piara Singh Padam to really understand the Damsan Bani. I do not need to ask for your purpose because by reading your posts one can easily understand why you used Gurbani and in what ways. I already gave enough quotes from Gurbani proving my point and I stand on those. But I did not mean to attack you or your family members in any way. I wrote what Gurbani says. I would say you go to some religious school like Taksaal and study Gurbani in deapth. The translation we have in english is too literal. Hopefully I would go to taksal one day and study Gurbani myself. We all need to. i don't think dragging this further would do any good. As rochak said close this chapter. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[hajara]

pbunga ( hope u dont mind me calling u that i dont wanna call u pakhandi because i can see youve got josh for the sikh quamyou mean well your only trying to speak from a bani di tohr takh)

mah teri samajdah and your right.

but its a fact right not all of us r from amritdhari families hunah? now theres a qoute in dasam granth which also says along the lines of monai being kuttai kaffr shaitan. Now would we apply that to our own fathers who left punjab came here worked hard stressed to the point where they got diseases that ruined their lives all for us in return to say their kuttai kaffr shaitan? those mothers who carried us in their wombs for 9 months bought us into the world. Im not saying question bani, what i mean is uhsii literally khai sagdey but we cant go and apply that if we did its then countered back by another bani qoute saying see guru sabh vich in guru granth sahib too. Again im aware different contexts but pherbi two diff points.

singh just because people work hard doesnt mean they dont think of god hunah? maybe not advertising what they do or think.hence we cant go round sayin so so are animals if we are not certain what they do. my mates dad does panj banis everyday at 4am he might not have naam from panj pyarey but he meditates on vaheguru and does seva after work in the gurdwara, but to look at youd think hes just an animal.because we cant tell whos doing what we cant say these things. I know some of you think well if he aint taken amrit whats the point? its easy to criticise at least thats better than sitting in a pub drinking shraba kebaba.

your a singh in this life to get here right now you must have done bhandagi somewhere so you was

an animal in all those other lives? but to recieve the jeevan of a singh not everyone gets that. That bhandagi in those previous lives dont make u an animal. people get put down enuff in life singh help them up and give them confidence im sure thats what our Gurus did.

singh thats entirely your own understanding of bani i did my job and thats providing the shabads whatever you make of it twadi marji. This is very strange now in the one hand when you gave the qoutes earlier on vedas being condemned they are relating to the vedas and when bani is saying dont call the vedas false false are those who do not contemplate them now veda doesnt mean veds. Singh i aint no fan of veds im only saying what im seeing from bani i dont even know how many veds or what not there is. Im also aware raam means vaheguru in bani and in other places it means the messenger, for example the bhatt swayeh seem to be saying ram as in ram chander. what does quran mean? does it not mean quran now?

singh theres two bani qoutes that blatently say Guru was there in all 4 yugas, ask yourself a question who were the gurus in the previous 3 yugs? is that also a metaphor? what if you came across a bhai gurdas ji qoute which says these things are not myths they actually happened/?

Perhaps youv misinterpretaed what i meant singh ji. The chapters on ram krishan in dasam bani according to bhai jodh singh jis translations approoved by sgpc state in places that Ram avtar was God and so was krishan. The version also states that by reading sincerely ram katha krishan katha or chandi katha one is liberated. Thats what it says at the end of each chapter. Im not promoting that as my view thats w3hat it states my point is plain jeh dasam granth thi ghula karni then approove the whole thing not the bits that suit us, this is where we get cold feet.

bruv what can i say when you say this that dont conflict? singh give me time il produce you the extact qoute where it says ram created the caste system, ram avtar was god in dasam gr

anth and yet incarnations are rejected in guru granth sahib ji as well as caste. Now if you still feel bani is static thats your wish who am i to change that? but im saying for the rest of the sangat bani aint static on every point and ive already showed that.

yes the same way you accuse me of using bani for purposes one can also accuse you but whats the point? sanu ki miljana? i wanna be your bro but at the same time what you was earlier claiming is thrown off balance by other bani verses what can i do but come back and say well it also says something else on the same topic? menu ji pharkey khaidoh i dont mind but if im reading different views of bani on the same topic do i stay silent?

paaji i know where your coming from your a quami mundah thats all good but you gotto understand 1 third of the sikh race is intertwined with hindus in the same jaats they aint gonna think of their families as animals hunah? thats 8 million punjabi sikhs their not gonna cut off from their khoon with these qoutes like yoyu wudnt call your old man a or kaffr just because hes got cut hair. Thats why i say bigger picture hor sikh bnavoh parchar karoh problem sorted.

singh the bani qoutes i gave i also stand on those but i cant help it when one point is this another that.

singh i would love to learn from taksal their seva as well as akj and all groups is immense and if im not mistaken doesnt taksal say theres 10 arth to each shabad?

your final point i coudnt agree more. chapter closed.

[Bijla Singh]

no no no. Guru Ji says one who has forgotton God is an animal. in other words those who turned their backs on Guru Ji. I myself don't do simran everyday but manage to do nitnem as much as i can. if any of my family members ever worshipped stones then sure they were blind and not any better than animals. humans have the knowledge to see the truth and realize God. Those who walk on the path are not animals whether it be amritdharis or monay. the reason idol worshippers are called blind is because they do not see the truth and don't do any naam simran.

I know Dasam Bani talks about 24 avtaars and chandi di vaar but the stories are narrated and if you ask why then I say the purpose for writing these stories was to inspire people to fight the moughal opression. all these stories are written in a unique way. chandi di vaar is full "josh" and talks about vaars, bloodshed and brave warriors. this was only so that people can read it and get the courage to fight for freedom. and the part about liberating yourself by reading paath of durga, that is not praising durga. that is praising Kirpan because Kirpan is durga and by reading paath one will be liberated mean get freedom. the deeper meaning is something else. Again, Piara SIngh Padam goes into lot more details.

Ram, Krishan all existed but they are not given any higher status. How do you expect Guru Ji to say that by worshipping krishna or raam you will be liberated. I mean this is the guy (krishna) who had 16,108 wives and some hundred thousand sons and daughters and raam cried in the battlefield. Guru Ji being the true warrior would never praise someone who cries and gives up in the battlefield. Go to www.dalistan.org

and you will find all the sources. My point simple being, Guru Ji never praised any hindu god. The message is different and the purpose is different. Many people failed to realize this and obviously the authority of Dasam Granth is being questioned. Guru Granth Sahib Ji gives you "hosh" and Dasam Bani gives you "Josh". For freedom you need both.

Going to taksal I did not mean Damdami Taksal. You can go to any taksal and study or any other religious school. its up to you but I myself will study in Damdami Taksal. Gurbani has infinite meanings. Taksal can give 10 or 20 different meanings but that's not all. Sant Gurbachan SIngh Ji used to say Gurbani is like a sky in which we birds (humans) can fly and enjoy but will never find its limits. Also, Bhai Veer Singh Ji got sick when he started writing the meanings because he could not decide which meaning to write. Everytime he meditated he found higher and higher meanings. (See Se Kineheya). The meanings represent your spiritual level. I guess that's all.

Last words, "Sukh Nahi Ray Har Bhagat Bina".Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[hajara]

teek ah paaji i agree with you.

[sukh_v]

just a suggestion... please don't take offence to this...

if we can all agree that in Sikhi, idol worship isn't allowed, can we drop this topic already? please? because i really don't see any of this stopping since everyone has strong opinions and no one is convincing anyone else that what they think is right. i think enough has been said on the topic of hinduism vs. Sikhism.

bhul chuk maaf...