ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ

[curious_man]

i again iterate.. yes.. interpretation and meanings change..

taksal meanings.. different than viakran.. different than nanaksar.. different than rara sahib.. different than nirmalaya interpretation (like Sant singh maskeen ji)

so.. as Maskeen ji told.. ppl jump in the ocean from different places.. and get different valuables in the ocean .. and even go into different depths..

gurbani is hugeeeeeeee.....

but yeah.. still we gotta make sure who is correct (else someone wud say tht he got fire from ocean.. which is stupidity).. so the surity is that all the arths.. though they may be different in the tone.. the moral\conclusion MUST BE ONE!

..........................

as bijla singh ji told in his above post's last line "u can beleive whtever u want"

i want to say that, if viakran tells that quran is wrong.. then was Baba Farid wrong too? NO WAY!!!

WJKK WJKF

[swordsedge]

to those who think Sikhi can be simplified into one set of Aarths and one Maryada are mistaken. if one refers to Bhagat Kabir, one must also understand the myriad religious beliefs of each and all the Bhagats which are at odds to "modern day Sikhi".

should sikhs go around to hindus and muslims calling vedas and quran false? i doubt it. there are those who believe that taking from Guru ji the message of pluralism, connection and oneness "contradicts" the message of a distinct Panth - this is short-sighted. yes our Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji and yes we do not follow the scripture of other faiths. our Panth is Unique and Distinct..

but maybe not in the way we currently perceive it..

Gurbani is the Ocean of Amrit - it is naturally separate from the land and mud without seeking to be, it cannot be drunk through the narrow straw of the elephant mind, fighting the tides wont help as they are too strong so it must be embraced wherever the sea takes you. . Guru ji reveals to us a new truth each day - what we know we cling to, to prevent ourselves from being completely immersed but only the Divine has the complete answer to the riddle.

[Bijla Singh]

but yes there are contradictions in bani and those all are true and depends on different levels of awastha.

No, Gurbani never contradicts itself because it came from Sachkhand and is Dhur Ki Bani. Its message is the same. If there appears to be a contradiction then that is our misunderstanding and lack of knowledge but Gurbani is infallible. There can be different meanings of Gurbani but not contradictory. If you insist then present me with some Shabads that give contradictory meanings based on avastha.

to those who think Sikhi can be simplified into one set of Aarths and one Maryada are mistaken. if one refers to Bhagat Kabir, one must also understand the myriad religious beliefs of each and all the Bhagats which are at odds to "modern day Sikhi".

Gurmat shows one true path and rejects other religions and their blind rituals. Gurbani's underlying message is the same and not different from Bhagat to Bhagat. Do not insult Gurbani by asserting it has inconsistencies. It is the pure truth and truth never changes. Guru Sahib would've instructed us to follow Vedas and Quran had he accepted them as valid source of Naam and salvation. He rejected both. Vaars reject both religions and Dasam Bani shreds them into infinite pieces. Gurmat is the path of following Satguru not options and picking whatever you want.

In any case, back to the topic. If anyone insists why interpretation by Giani Thakur Singh Ji is correct and in line with Gurbani then explain why Bhagat Ji rejected Vedas and Katebas in other Shabads?

[curious_man]

bijla singh ji.. i dont write sophisticated english like others.. which is good for a in debate.. but though my post may look naive to u.. i would like you to comment on my above post too.. cuz i want to know whre am i standing too!

thx

[PAL 07]

BIJLA SINGH IS MISLEADING THOSE THAT VISIT THIS SITE, HIS INTERPRETATION OF THIS PANGATEE IS CLEARLY MANMAT (THOUGH THE REST OF HIS POST IS OK)......HIS INTERPRETATION OF BEDKATEBH SHABAD IS CLEARLY AGAINST SAMPARDAY ARTH AND SAMPARDAY TEEKEH......I HUMBLY REQUEST BIJLA SINGH TO CONTACT ME VIA E-MAIL . I SHALL CONTACT SANT HARI SINGH RANDAVEVALE AND ORGANISE FOR US TO GO TO ANY ONE OF THE PANJ SIROMANI TAKHKTS IN INDIA AND WE SHALL DISCUSS LIKE SCHOLARS OVER THIS ISSUE BECAUSE THIS DISCUSSION HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE ON THIS WEBSITE.......HOW CAN SOMEBODY SITTING BEHIND A COMPUTER THINK HES MORE KNOWLEDGED THAN SANT GURBACHAN SINGH/SANT AMIR SINGH/PANDIT BHAAN SINGH KOKREY VALEY ETC ETC THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO STUDIED VIDIYA FOR OVER 50 YEARS? YOU SHOULD NOT POST FALSE INFORMATION AND CONFUSE THE SANGAT, YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OPINION BUT ON A PUBLIC WEBSITE YOU SHOULD ONLY EXPRESS MAIN STREAM ORTHODOX GURMAT. IF YOU FEEL THIS IS A CONTENTIOUS ISSUE THEN YOU SHOULD SIT WITH SCHOLARS AND DISCUSS THIS ISSUE NOT EXPECT OTHERS TO ARGUE WITH YOU ON A MESSAGE BOARD.

[BABBAR KHALISTANI]

Bijla Singh Ji rocks as usual !!!!!! If i am right i think Bijla Singh has discussed this issue previously as well and was rooted in my memory, but a detailed explanation here's gonna refresh minds like mine and inform many others. Thanks Bijla Singh Ji.

One More Thing: Won't it be better if we all including me analyse how much knowledgeable we actually are and then pass judgements on Gurbani. Coz i have noticed some people have little knowledge of gurbani and pass their judgements on sacred gurbani as experts or scholars. I think we should learn to learn more and more or shall i say we should learn to be sikhs rather than just voice opinions just for the sake of it without substantial amount of knowledge.

Some of the comments like bani is contradictory (waheguru) etc were just outrageous, offensive and shocking. I feel ppl who have uttered such opinions should do ardas and seek forgiveness from waheguru.

[sunny_love_kirtan]

.

but yes there are contradictions in bani and those all are true and depends on different levels of awastha.

Some of the comments like bani is contradictory (waheguru) etc were just outrageous, offensive and shocking. I feel ppl who have uttered such opinions should do ardas and seek forgiveness from waheguru.

this i not my personal view or my personal khoj, i hav listened some katahs by maskeen ji and also by baba hardev singh ji lolu wale.

they explined and dnt take this as negative point, as i told everything is true though it contradicts its true and for different awastha people.

i can show u an example but this is not the from the katha veechar by maskeen ji or hardev singh ji, i m juz trying to show u what i mean

siqgur no sBu ko vyKdw jyqw jgqu sMswru ]

ifTY mukiq n hoveI ijcru sbid n kry vIcwru ]

All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru.

One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad.

jIA jMq pRiB sgl auDwry drsnu dyKxhwry ]

jeea janth prabh sagal oudhaarae dharasan dhaekhanehaarae |

God saves all beings and creatures, giving them the Blessed Vision of His Darshan.

gur pUry kI Acrj vifAweI nwnk sd bilhwry ]2]9]37]

gur poorae kee acharaj vaddiaaee naanak sadh balihaarae |2|9|37|

Wondrous is the glorious greatness of the Perfect Guru; Nanak is forever a sacrifice to Him. ||2||9||37||

actually contradiction is an incorrect word used by me, but as i already said that gurbani is true true true even if there are some panktia which seems they are opposite to a stupid person like me.

above mentioned tuks explained what i meant. even creatures are saved by the blessed vissions then why cannot we? this is true that we can be but what is needed here alot of pyaar for darshan alot of shardha and vishwas that the blessed vision can save us and take us across. but it doesnt mean that we dnt have to do naam jap or baani veechaar

so those who do shabad veechar are also mukat by kirpa.

gur pUry kI Acrj vifAweI nwnk sd bilhwry ]2]9]37]

gur poorae kee acharaj vaddiaaee naanak sadh balihaarae |2|9|37|

Wondrous is the glorious greatness of the Perfect Guru; Nanak is forever a sacrifice to Him. ||2||9||37||

this is the acharaj wadeyayi, we cannot estimate what can happen or what cannot

waheguru beant hai and they baani is beant

it cannot be explained to a limited height of details.

everything is true

that what i meant.

if i made anymistake then i ask forgivness from sache patshah.

i never meant to say anything disrespectful abt gurbani.

[xHarinder_singh]

Taksal does meanings of this shabad differently and I have already listened to what they have to say. There were some grammar rules known to Sikh scholars prior to Prof. Sahib Singh but many believed that Gurbani was not written according to viyakaran. Even today many taksalis reject viyakaran. Explaining one word and its grammar is much different than doing aarths entirely according to viyakaran. Taksal is a source of knowledge and there is no doubt about that but if aarths contradict Gurbani then we cannot accept them. Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji and Giani Thakur Singh both do the same meanings but I have noticed one difference. Sant Ji interprets word ਕਹਹੁ differently than Giani Ji. If we accept their interpretation then we must also accept that Gurbani contradicts itself. Gurbani rejects Vedas outright as well as Quran. Guru Sahib rejected both faiths and Bhagat Ji did not follow Hinduism or Islam. Taksal is not the only source and is bound to make (unintentional) mistakes. I humbly disagree with their interpretation of the first pankti. Bhai Randhir Singh's interpretation is much better though not 100% correct. When I meet Giani Ji and other katha vaachaks I would surely ask them questions for veechar.

Why the Vedas shouldn't be called false when these very books were responsible for enslaving the entire Indian population for centuries? They have no Naam and are full of blind rituals. Why the Quran shouldn't be called false for preaching hajj, fasting, circumcision, inequality and intolerance which are rejected in Gurbani? Kabir Ji rejects Islamic practice of halal is the very next pankti then how can he say that Quran shouldn't be called false? He has rejected both in many Shabads which I have quoted in my first post. Could Bhagat Ji contradict himself and could Guru Sahib include contradictory message in Gurbani? I do not think so. You can believe whatever you want. Guru Rakha

Very nice post. Veer Bijla Singh Jee is right that Gurbani is written according to Grammar but when Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Bindhrawale has done my arths of the pankitis and many of these many meanings are CORRECT.

Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale had a big kamayee.

Gurbani is not limited to viakaran is an understanding.

Gurbani is WAY ABOVE viakaran. But the viakaran meanings are never contradicted.

[Into the Light]

Gurbani is beyond any limits hence being limitless...

Viyakaran can and should be used to interpret Gurbani but as soon as one says Gurbani can only be interpreted using viyakaran then one has limited Gurbani to that measure...but Gurbani cannot be limited hence why Gurbani is beyond everything from our matt to even viyakaran

[Papi]

^ I agree. Gurbani is not bound by viakaran.