Who Is Allowed?

[Seeking_Sikhi]

Now I'm unable to draw any conclusions...so really is it dependent on whoever is in the sangath to go and withdraw a non-kesdhari from the stage?

Shouldnt there be some convention? If there was, it would stop the mini fights over the subject which are happening in front of me.

I know the guys n gals are good at keertan but I'm not sure if they are into sikhi deeply enough to feel the calling to turn amrtidhari....as this is the case, in your view, they should not be allowed to sit on the stage and sing the keertan that fills their hearts and minds... ...at the same time they are turned away from the gursikhs who refuse to let them perform and refuse to teach them because they are not kesdhari... being kesdhari and amrtidhari are also totally different things too...so in this sense your opinion is more inclined to the look of the person not the meaning of the words which were written by a higher power....

would you take prashaad if it was given to you by a non-amritdhari non-kesdhari?

you've got me wrong ..i'm not in it for any kinda fights or arguments .. i just felt that it is an open forum and voiced my opinion. adding a little bit more to what i've said earlier .. i would never pull anyone down the stage/disrespect who is performing kirtan be it anyone, from any race provided he/she is reciting the correct bani.

I agree that being Keshadhari and Amritdhari are 2 different things.. but when you become a keshadhari sikh and wear your turban you're a step closer to being Amritdhari and more so you vow to be different in the crowd and maintain the identity of a Sikhl

I would not encourage Non-Keshadhari to performing kirtran on stage. I would also not discourage them to learn kirtan and woud not shove them away .. instead i would just tell them that they need to rise to a more higher level to perform on stage .. take up his roop ...after all the stage is the darbar of the Guru.

Although you haven't really answered my earlier question but still lemme ask you another one..if anyone learns kirtan very well .. is it that he/she gets a license to give up the identity of being a sikh..??

Do not discourage anyone from learning kirtan but only encourage them to rise to a higher level..

[Traveller]

Now I'm unable to draw any conclusions...so really is it dependent on whoever is in the sangath to go and withdraw a non-kesdhari from the stage?

Shouldnt there be some convention? If there was, it would stop the mini fights over the subject which are happening in front of me.

I know the guys n gals are good at keertan but I'm not sure if they are into sikhi deeply enough to feel the calling to turn amrtidhari....as this is the case, in your view, they should not be allowed to sit on the stage and sing the keertan that fills their hearts and minds... ...at the same time they are turned away from the gursikhs who refuse to let them perform and refuse to teach them because they are not kesdhari... being kesdhari and amrtidhari are also totally different things too...so in this sense your opinion is more inclined to the look of the person not the meaning of the words which were written by a higher power....

would you take prashaad if it was given to you by a non-amritdhari non-kesdhari?

you've got me wrong ..i'm not in it for any kinda fights or arguments .. i just felt that it is an open forum and voiced my opinion. adding a little bit more to what i've said earlier .. i would never pull anyone down the stage/disrespect who is performing kirtan be it anyone, from any race provided he/she is reciting the correct bani.

I agree that being Keshadhari and Amritdhari are 2 different things.. but when you become a keshadhari sikh and wear your turban you're a step closer to being Amritdhari and more so you vow to be different in the crowd and maintain the identity of a Sikhl

I would not encourage Non-Keshadhari to performing kirtran on stage. I would also not discourage them to learn kirtan and woud not shove them away .. instead i would just tell them that they need to rise to a more higher level to perform on stage .. take up his roop ...after all the stage is the darbar of the Guru.

Although you haven't really answered my earlier question but still lemme ask you another one..if anyone learns kirtan very well .. is it that he/she gets a license to give up the identity of being a sikh..??

Do not discourage anyone from learning kirtan but only encourage them to rise to a higher level..

Sorry I didnt answer the question because 1) you said it was general and 2)I didnt say I myself am a sikh or involved in this, but as you wish for an answer I will try to do so as best I can in context.

If someone has love and respect in their Guru then that is all they may have...but if they have faith and wish to follow then they should be encouraged to do so to the best of their ability, but not forced as I doubt that is God's will... you said something about giving up the turban, which implied they had one in the first place...the people I know never had one and have no reason to get furthur into sikhi other than their own development of their faith...so if they do choose to tie a turban then obviously thats a visual step forward...personally I think that maybe someone with kirtan in their heart could be further along the path than someone who wears a turban but can do bad things too... A turban is obviously nothing special to a native punjabi or someone who wants to show off their caste... so its like you're choosing between some1 who wears a turban due to punjabi culture, or some1 who wears a ramaal because of cut hair from western culture... humm...

why isnt thre anythin more official than this or is it really people just making up their own rules with a bit of "im better than thou" attitude thrown in.... do people listen to words or look at the people... What is the right ideal in the ways of Sikhi, can any1 with kirtan in their heart or mind take the stage and share the beauty vocally....or should non-amritdharis be turned away from learning or not-encouraged(discouraged?) from taking the stage..

Surely then some1 is ambiguated from the religion or worse still, aiming to be on stage rather than be closer to guru ji because they may keep kes purely to perform... not to reach Guru Ji....

People look to panj pyaare as examples of the khalsa....do you look to someone doing keertan or reading from the gurbani in the same light? why...?

I guess when kids get older things like this must subtly change their mind about the acceptance of the religion...

but then if its a rule, its a rule...just need to find some authority on this!

[Traveller]

Although you haven't really answered my earlier question but still lemme ask you another one..if anyone learns kirtan very well .. is it that he/she gets a license to give up the identity of being a sikh..??

Do not discourage anyone from learning kirtan but only encourage them to rise to a higher level..

Forgot to answer.... the majority of people in this world havent given up sikhi...they havent found it so I'm not sure what you mean by giving up the identity of being a sikh.... anyway... if anyone learns kirtan very well thats great...whether they be of any religion....but im on about people who feel kirtan and through their voice or music can make the sangath warm to it and meditate on it...

if kirtan helps people get closer to guru ji, and allows non sikhs to feel like they can get closer to guru ji too then surely it should be encouraged for anyone and everyone to learn to perform kirtan... or do you feel that is detrimental to sikhi and guru ji's teachings?

[Aparadhee]

the example of monay doing panj pyare seva is a good one.

panj pyare must have immense kamayee to do this seva, at the same time kamayee of kirtani is also important as it has huge effect on listener.

again if a person is doing paaht from guru sahib in sangat and tukh appears relating to naam or receiving naam then what is the reader to make of such a tukh, they have not received naam from satguru. how can they then lead the sangat?

this is not a question of whether they can do paaht or kirtan as anyone is free to do this, but maryada of a darbar is very different. if they have pyaar for sikhi they will be content to continue doing kirtan at home and respect maryada of darbar sahib.

the question arises should we now let non amritdharis be in gurdwara committees and should we let them do kirtan/maharaj di seva at harimandar sahib?

other sevas include making degh, can a non amritdhari make degh?

why stop at kirtan, even now monay are asking to be part of gurdwara committees yet a gurdwaras duty is to promote the amrit of dashmesh pita yet the committee members havent even kept kesh, is this not contradictory?

again i have full faith bh mardana ji took charan amrit of guru nanak dev ji and became gursikh

gurfateh

[fresh singh]

the example of monay doing panj pyare seva is a good one.

panj pyare must have immense kamayee to do this seva, at the same time kamayee of kirtani is also important as it has huge effect on listener.

again if a person is doing paaht from guru sahib in sangat and tukh appears relating to naam or receiving naam then what is the reader to make of such a tukh, they have not received naam from satguru. how can they then lead the sangat?

this is not a question of whether they can do paaht or kirtan as anyone is free to do this, but maryada of a darbar is very different. if they have pyaar for sikhi they will be content to continue doing kirtan at home and respect maryada of darbar sahib.

the question arises should we now let non amritdharis be in gurdwara committees and should we let them do kirtan/maharaj di seva at harimandar sahib?

other sevas include making degh, can a non amritdhari make degh?

why stop at kirtan, even now monay are asking to be part of gurdwara committees yet a gurdwaras duty is to promote the amrit of dashmesh pita yet the committee members havent even kept kesh, is this not contradictory?

again i have full faith bh mardana ji took charan amrit of guru nanak dev ji and became gursikh

gurfateh

Sikh Reht Maryada

THE CODE OF SIKH CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS

CHAPTER V

Kirtan (Devotional Hymns Singing by a Group or an Indvidual)

Article VI

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a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation.

b) Kirtan means singing the scriptural compositions in traditional musical measures.

c) In the congragation, Kirtan only of Gurbani (Guru Granth's or Guru Gobind Singh's hymns) and, for its elaboration, of the compositions of Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal, may be performed.

[Traveller]

I thought the above would settle it, but when looking at the maryada it refers to amritdhari (baptized) sikhs and sikhs which implies a difference between a sikh and a baptized sikh...so this means non-amrtidharis are allowed?

[Traveller]

Could someone link me to a conclusive topic or definition of a sikh or is it something that is under constant debate? I'm just confused as to why the maryada says a sikh believes in baptism...not a sikh is one who is baptised... big difference there! I'm also confused as to why there are references to sikhs and baptised sikhs...this indicates that sikhs can also be non-baptised (non-amitdhari)

[Aparadhee]

gur satgur ka jo sikh akhaae so bhal ke ut har naam dhiaave....

[big5abi]

In the Gurus time ALL were allowed to sit together and perform kirtan. Bala was hindu and Mardana was muslim and both were allowed to sing and perform kirtan. Does that mean they should be removed from the stage? Guru Gobind Singh ji's majestic court was decorated with non-amritdharis muslims hindus, udasis and Nanakpanthis. Why were they allowed to perform in his court if non-amritdharis were not allowed. Why were they allowed to address the sangat and read poems and sing, if Guru ji had banned non-amritdharis. This is an inovation of the tat-khalsa singh sabha circa 1880's. The SGPC has now codafied this, even though it has no precedent in sikh history. It ties in well with their philosophy that amritdharis are superior to the rest, how could this be accurate when in the preceding nine gurus times no such distinction existed. There's no evidence that Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj Ji made such a distinction either. Though there are uncorraborated claims by certain sects with a vested interest in this issue to the contrary. The only example i've ever heard to supprt this false theory is that in the 1960's, on a trip to Patna Sahib Sant Kartar Singh was dismayed when he saw a muslim performing dhadi and complained to the jathedar that the muslims should become amritdhari or leave the premesis. But this is hardly evidence of anything other than the fact that false ideas can be easily exported from Punjab to Bihar.

[Vahejeo]

THE CODE OF SIKH CONDUCT AND CONVENTIONS

Kirtan (Devotional Hymns Singing by a Group or an Indvidual)

Article VI

a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation.

from:

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_three_chap_five.html