The Fall Of Elam

[HSD*^]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8055015.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/default.stm

Well well. It looks like the end of the road. the bbc have a few good discussions on it, but i'm going to create this thread to discuss what is on everyone's mind. what went wrong?

the reason i ask is that there are many parrallels with the tamil freedom struggle and the khalistani movement. but the tamils went that one step further - true sovereignty. they controlled a third of the island, built a navy, maintained an air force, along with many other trappings of a nation state. 'so what?' you may ask. my point is this: if we create khalistan and just make it up as we go along, our enemies will just buy bigger guns and then obliterate us. and that is if we create it. looking at the state of the panth and the attitude of many in east punjab i cant see how we could maintain a large armed forces(500000-1000000men and women). now some will say waheguru promised it to us or that the americans never bothered forming a govt until well after they kicked the british out.

yet in our lives we face many tests that waheguru puts us through. so why would waheguru just give khalistan to us? surely building a country will be the biggest and hardest test for the khalsa, and will definitely not be achieved by apathy and lethargy. it will require action, preparation and unity. and keeping any state we build out of the clutches of our enemies (internal and external) will be another test for the khalsa that we all supposedly say we are part of.

as for american history, all i can say is that the americans wanted one main thing: less tax (some things never change lol). this is what they all fought for. also they had men like washington who were great visionaries and created institutions that would rival all of those in europe. what reason do khalistanis fight for? the uniting principles? to kick hindustan out of east punjab.........a little vague isnt it? of course some of you will propogate some points that could also be considered reasons but they wont apply to every east punjabi. maybe we should start thinking about this. or not in some of your cases. also where are our great leaders. it took 150 years for bhindranwale to come after the death of hari singh nalwa(the true hero of the khalsa raj). but now we have no one. of course there are those quasi-scholars/gurudwara committee lot/wannabe jatha commanders who will all say they should lead. but most of them are lucky to have a peanut between their brains. none understand how the real world works or the preparation that is needed to create a country. the ones who do know the world want to keep us in the dark so they can sell us down the river when the price is right. why dont we resolve this? stop pushing your kids to do dentistry/accounting/pharmacy just because that will mean they can buy you a mercedes when you retire. let the children do what they are good at. let them be the best. let them study at the best institutions that they can but make sure they remember that their duty is to the khalsa. khalistan cant afford to be led by some slumdog idiots. i pointed out in another thread that before partition our leaders where uneducated compared to the hindu and muslim leaders - and look where we ended up because of that.

another point is that the americans had massive amounts of help from the french and to a lesser extent the spanish and dutch. after the americans won the other 3 european countries left them alone. who is allied to us, and who would let us live in true independence? and dont say pakistan, they hate our guts and would want to rule us as much as the hindustanis do.

so dont expect waheguru to do anything if you sit on your <banned word filter activated>. dont listen to those who say dont worry about how khalistan will work, we'll sort that out later. if you do, expect to see yourself lying dead on the open ground like those tamils. and i'm not just on about in east punjab. sikhs are not safe in any non-sikh country forever. we wont be safe in a sikh country either if we do not outwit our internal and external enemies.

[dalsingh101]

What you're saying is so true but how many people who support the notion of Khalistan can actually grasp that?

Its been decades and I would say the panth is getting more dense over time.

[Harjeet.Singh]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/royal-torture-...vestigated.html

[proactive]

The problem with the Tamils was that even having all the trappings of sovereignity, Prabakaran never bothered to create any democratic institutions. If he had chosen to hold elections and allowed an opposition to stand then he might have got more support for the Tamil cause. If he had chosen to disband the LTTE (even just through statements) and converted it into an regular army he would have got some de-facto recognition for his state. The LTTE has been well known as a ruthless organisation and most in the west view it as a terrorist organisation. I think the US and Canada have banned it. This was all the more reason for him to disband LTTE and set up a regular army.

Also even though there had been 2-3 years of ceasefire, the Tamils still launched suicide attacks and this was mainly what lost them the support of the outside world.

In the end Eelam failed as a state because they person who lead it chose to remain a military leader and not as other successful movements have done which is to become democratic.

[Harmindersingh]

Dear Brother HSD,

You have raised some good points. But can you please clarify what exactly you meant when you said "slumdog idiots" . Idiots are not limited to Punjab or slums.

Regards

[HSD*^]

What you're saying is so true but how many people who support the notion of Khalistan can actually grasp that?

Its been decades and I would say the panth is getting more dense over time.

well if they dont they will end up like those dead bodies in the pictures on the sky news site. its their choice. i'll help, but no one person can carry a whole movement in an intelligent direction. i know that sounds c0cky, but sometimes it seems our leaders like to pull the wool over our own eyes and then complain when we get screwed over. in the end if there is another Ghallooghaaraa, well i know i got a pretty good chance of surviving. if it means the weak die and the strong carry the panth on, then i hope it happens. i know that sounds harsh but thats my opinion so if anyone reads this and doesnt like it then tough.

[HSD*^]

Dear Brother HSD,

You have raised some good points. But can you please clarify what exactly you meant when you said "slumdog idiots" . Idiots are not limited to Punjab or slums.

Regards

slumdog <banned word filter activated> = a leader in the old country or in the diaspora who is corrupt and stupid yet very cunning. they dont care for the sikh nation but will use patriotism and sikhi to hold others in their power. they may not be educated at the best institutions but they know how to play the populace, and have popular support because they know all the tricks. read about leaders like cromwell, washington, bismark, mandela and then look at our lot. its time to wise up and create good strong leaders of the panth rather than waiting for them to fall out of the sky. europeans/white americans are not naturally cleverer than us. but they know how to train their youth to maintain a society/nation/country. fgs look at the fact that england has not been invaded fully for almost a thousand years now. a thousand years! we cant even protect amritsar from hindustani armour and troops. and that has to change.

also i did not mean id1ots are only found in slums or punjab. if it came across as arrogant or racist then it was not intended.

[HSD*^]

The problem with the Tamils was that even having all the trappings of sovereignity, Prabakaran never bothered to create any democratic institutions. If he had chosen to hold elections and allowed an opposition to stand then he might have got more support for the Tamil cause. If he had chosen to disband the LTTE (even just through statements) and converted it into an regular army he would have got some de-facto recognition for his state. The LTTE has been well known as a ruthless organisation and most in the west view it as a terrorist organisation. I think the US and Canada have banned it. This was all the more reason for him to disband LTTE and set up a regular army.

Also even though there had been 2-3 years of ceasefire, the Tamils still launched suicide attacks and this was mainly what lost them the support of the outside world.

In the end Eelam failed as a state because they person who lead it chose to remain a military leader and not as other successful movements have done which is to become democratic.

you mention some good points but i dont think you saw something i noticed. the sinhalese are basically sticking 2 fingers up to the west and especially britain. why are they so ballsy? they must have got the nod from somewhere to go all out and not worry about the west's reaction to the atrocities. and its election time in hindustan....... sonia gandhi? or maybe i'm thinking too much.

[TruSoul]

Tamils infrastructure is/was a lot more organised. Plus Sri Lanka as a militarily power is weaker then India's.

I think you can learn a lot from the likes of Israel, small in population but has a very skilled armed forces and general population. Due to their national services, every males adult at 18 has to serve at least two years in the military forces.

Totally agree about lack of a good leader.

send your kids to http://www.welbeck.mod.uk/. Would be a start, they can still be educated but have an armed forces background. You be surprised how many Sikh kids attend.

[proactive]

Theres no doubt the West actually gave the go ahead to the Sri Lankans to take out the LTTE. They similarly looked the other way when the Serbs of Krajina in Croatia were expelled and their state extinguished in 1995 by the Croats. Their decision was made easier because the LTTE simply could not move beyond their militant (or terrorist) ideology. The recently Muslim apologist argument which has been incessently promoted recently that the Muslims weren't the first to devise the suicide bomber strategy didn't help the Tamil cause in the West either.

I still think that had the LTTE conducted elections and if some anti-LTTE members had also been elected then it would have been much more difficult for the Sri Lankans to get the go ahead and attack the Tamil areas. Liberated areas only have a significance if the people in power are also able to create a civil society that functions. If the Tamils had done that then their case would have been more like that of Kosovo than of Krajina.