The Laws Of Karma

[harjit nanua 2]

ਕਰਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਤਸੰਿਗ ਿਮਲਾਏ ॥

karam hovai satsang milaa-ay.

Through the karma of good actions, one joins the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.

ਸਹਜੇ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਪਿਰਓ ਕਰਮਾ ॥

sehjay jaa ka-o pari-o karmaa.

With intuitive ease, they meet the Lord, according to their karma.

ਧੁਿਰ ਕਰਮੁ ਿਜਨਾ ਕਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਿਤਨੀ ਖਸਮੁ ਿਧਆਇਆ ॥

Dhur karam jinaa ka-o tuDh paa-i-aa taa tinee khasam Dhi-aa-i-aa.

Only those whose karma You have pre-ordained from the very beginning, O Lord,

meditate on You.

ਦਾਸ ਰੇਣੁ ਸੋਈ ਹੋਆ ਿਜਸੁ ਮਸਤਿਕ ਕਰਮਾ ॥

daas rayn so-ee ho-aa jis mastak karmaa.

He alone becomes the dust of the Lord's slaves, who has such good karma upon his

forehead.

ਪਇਐ ਿਕਰਿਤ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਿਜਵ ਰਾਖਿਹ ਿਤਵੈ ਰਹੰਿਨ? ॥੧॥

pa-i-ai kirat kamaavday jiv raakhahi tivai rahaNniH. ||1||

They act according to the karma of the actions they committed before; as the Lord

keeps them, so do they live. ||1||

ਨਾਨਕ ਿਕਰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਿਮਟਾਇਓ ॥੨॥

naanak kirat na jaa-ay mitaa-i-o. ||2||

O Nanak, the the karma of past actions cannot be erased. ||2||

-all Tuks from various angs of SGGS

wjkk wjkf,

Dear Siblings,

PLease do assist me in understanding Karma.

What we are today is because of Karma. Say, if i am a Prime Minister or a wood cutter or a soldier is because of our karma. But how far does karma go in dictating our lives? Does every moment of what we do is because of karma?

And, when we do bad things, like scold someone or talk in ego..is it due to karma? Because of we do bad things, then our karma gets even worse, right?

We are in satsang, because of our karma, right? So, if a person who's karma has no satsang, and no mediation on God, is bound to go thru the cycle of rebirth, right? So, based on his karma, he is bound for that? Can anything be done to change this?

The last tuk says that the karma of past actions cannot be erased. Say if i was to meet an accident tomorrow (example) and this is due to my past karmas, how can i change it? If i pray and pray, will this karma change? Guru Nanak says it will not.

Please do explain and enlighten me.

Thank you....

regards

[Akaal Purakh Di Fauj 233]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Hopefully this post by Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji will help give you a better understanding of Karma: http://www.vidhia.com/Bhai_Kulbir_Singh_Ji...0Singh%20Ji.pdf

During the times of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj the king of Mandi asked Maharaj a similar question to yours: "Say if i was to meet an accident tomorrow (example) and this is due to my past karmas, how can i change it? If i pray and pray, will this karma change? Guru Nanak says it will not." I will try and write this amazing sakhi for you later on this evening: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=44604&hl=

But in short place your head at the feet of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and that king of kings shall reduce the effects of your pralabadh karma (those that can’t been changed).

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[valli singh 0]

There are three kinds of karma:

1) Stored Karmas-These are the accumulated karmas, good and bad from

multitudes of past lives that constitute our 'debt' with Kal or Dharam Raj

which must be cleared for us to attain liberation.

2) Fate Karmas-Are the portion of the Stored Karmas that are 'ripe for reaping'

that is, they are ready to bear there good or bad fruits in the present life,

thus ones intelligence, tendencies,station, position, caste, creed, level of success, major illnesses, time of death etc are all shaped from this mass of karmas,

Fate Karmas cannot be changed, however, through meditation, doing bani, seva,

they can be reduced, it is also said that through the intervention of a highly developed soul like a brahmgiani--these karmas can be greatly reduced though not completely nullified i.e, you are suppossed to get into a car accident but instead you dream of being in one.

3) Still-Accruing Karmas-these are the karmas being formed in this very life

that will be worked out in future lives, as they are formed through our present actions they accumulate in the Stored Karmas cauldron to make future Fate Karmas.

You will find many Sikhs who do not believe in even reincarnation and predestination,

these are very intrinsic apsects of Sikhism, though many Sikhs believe in freewill,

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji preaches predestination--everything is already known to God

thus it is predetermined, everything that happens to us in this life is predetermined

by our past karmas which have given us our present tendencies and the inherent probaility that we will be more inclined to do certain acts, so even our Still-Accruing Karmas can be seen to be subtley predetermined.

Guru's Grace

[valli singh 0]

In regards to my comments above on Fate Karmas

please consider the following sakhi regarding Guru Nanak:

In Guru Nanak's time there were two neighbors,

one was a sevadar of Guru Nanak and one was

a sinner who visited prostitutes daily,

everyday the two would see each other leaving and go about their seperate ways,

one day the sevadar of Guru Nanak was walking home from satsang and he stepped on a really sharp thorn and his foot was bleeding, he limped with difficulty home

to find the sinner rejoicing, the sevadar asked the sinner why are you so happy,

the sinner said that while walking home from the den of sins he found a handful of gold coins,

the sinner asked the sevadar why he was limping, the sevadar said because

I stepped on a sharp thorn, the sinner then said that this makes no sense, I am a sinner and visit sinful places and I find gold coins and you go to satsang of a holy man

and you get pain,

the two then decided to visit Guru Nanak the next day and ask him to explain these events,

the next day the sevadar and the sinner asked Guruji

how the preveious events could have occured,

Guru Nanak replied to the savadar:

"according to your fate you were destined to be impaled

on a giant spike going through your chest, but because you come to satsang

it was reduced to a thorn-prick,

this sinner was destined to find a treasure chest of gold and jewels

but because he sins so much he only found a few gold coins"

after this the sinner joined the sangat of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji.

[harjit nanua 2]

wjkk wjkf,

Thank you so much... the stories and examples are beautiful.. thank you...

[geo 3]

There are three kinds of karma:

1) Stored Karmas-These are the accumulated karmas, good and bad from

multitudes of past lives that constitute our 'debt' with Kal or Dharam Raj

which must be cleared for us to attain liberation.

2) Fate Karmas-Are the portion of the Stored Karmas that are 'ripe for reaping'

that is, they are ready to bear there good or bad fruits in the present life,

thus ones intelligence, tendencies,station, position, caste, creed, level of success, major illnesses, time of death etc are all shaped from this mass of karmas,

Fate Karmas cannot be changed, however, through meditation, doing bani, seva,

they can be reduced, it is also said that through the intervention of a highly developed soul like a brahmgiani--these karmas can be greatly reduced though not completely nullified i.e, you are suppossed to get into a car accident but instead you dream of being in one.

3) Still-Accruing Karmas-these are the karmas being formed in this very life

that will be worked out in future lives, as they are formed through our present actions they accumulate in the Stored Karmas cauldron to make future Fate Karmas.

You will find many Sikhs who do not believe in even reincarnation and predestination,

these are very intrinsic apsects of Sikhism, though many Sikhs believe in freewill,

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji preaches predestination--everything is already known to God

thus it is predetermined, everything that happens to us in this life is predetermined

by our past karmas which have given us our present tendencies and the inherent probaility that we will be more inclined to do certain acts, so even our Still-Accruing Karmas can be seen to be subtley predetermined.

Guru's Grace

this point of view, taken to its logical conclusion, paints a very bleak future.

In regards to my comments above on Fate Karmas

please consider the following sakhi regarding Guru Nanak:

In Guru Nanak's time there were two neighbors,

one was a sevadar of Guru Nanak and one was

a sinner who visited prostitutes daily,

everyday the two would see each other leaving and go about their seperate ways,

one day the sevadar of Guru Nanak was walking home from satsang and he stepped on a really sharp thorn and his foot was bleeding, he limped with difficulty home

to find the sinner rejoicing, the sevadar asked the sinner why are you so happy,

the sinner said that while walking home from the den of sins he found a handful of gold coins,

the sinner asked the sevadar why he was limping, the sevadar said because

I stepped on a sharp thorn, the sinner then said that this makes no sense, I am a sinner and visit sinful places and I find gold coins and you go to satsang of a holy man

and you get pain,

the two then decided to visit Guru Nanak the next day and ask him to explain these events,

the next day the sevadar and the sinner asked Guruji

how the preveious events could have occured,

Guru Nanak replied to the savadar:

"according to your fate you were destined to be impaled

on a giant spike going through your chest, but because you come to satsang

it was reduced to a thorn-prick,

this sinner was destined to find a treasure chest of gold and jewels

but because he sins so much he only found a few gold coins"

after this the sinner joined the sangat of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji.

this point of view, paints a hopeful future. i like the story, i like the sentiments and the moral of the story.

[alias 128]

iv posted about this karaam thing before on another topic a while back..

heres the link

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry389292

its a good topic..

gurfateh

[sitargirl 0]

If everything is predestined.....how is there free will

[valli singh 0]

Sikhism says that everything under the sun is subject to Hukam or God's will

thus God has foreknowledge of everything and evrything is predetermined

and freewill is an illusion as we are too limited to percieve what is destined

but really on our level it doesn't matter that things are predetermined

because we still don't know what will happen, so we continue to act as

though we have freewill,

but as I stated above, when even our mental capacities and tendencies

are predetermined then the actions resulting therefrom can be seen

to be subtely predestined as well,

for instance, if due to past negative actions/tendencies one is born

in a family and abused, and has a low materialistic way of thinking,

and that person innately harbors resentment and lashes out in violence

can we really say that he has acted 'freely' when the hidden cause

is the ingrained tendencies of past lives?

Only if we do not believe in past lives can we so readily accept freewill.

Guru's Grace

[sitargirl 0]

If there is no freewill how are can we be judged for our actions....

[valli singh 0]

Well as Sikhs we believe that all of life is Maya,

thus our actions are performed with the illusion of freewill,

see the mind believes that the world is real and acts accordingly

as in a dream,

in a sense you can say it has fanciful freewill but what is

freewill in a dream which is not in itself real?

the mind thus performs good or bad deeds through the illusory body

because it is attached to the dream ego--the soul suffers the consequences therefrom as is Dharam Raj's rule.

it is better to think of life as a continuum (something that extends over many lives rather than just one) because we are the product of many past births,

so the seeds of past births sprout in this body and we reap them,

if we repeatedly plant the same bad seeds we continually reap the same ill fruit when we are judged.

freewill is a mental capacity, if the state of one's mind at present

is the cause of past tendencies then even the nature of that very capacity

can be seen to be predetermined.

thus our present tendencies and predispositions towards vice and virtue

are the effects of causes from earlier incarnations

so to answer your question,

you could ay that we are judged for misusing the illusory freewill

we falsely believe we possess,

to state it more simply, a thief steals and is punished,

if we are talking about freewill we want to know why he was punished

if the world itself is not real and there is no freewill,

the reason is that because of past lives of low thinking the thief

has become a thief, thus he steals because he is now covetuous by nature,

to go even deeper we could say that he has falsely identified himself with this

false identity and ego (that is his real 'original sin' from which all his other sorrows come),

what's more, ignoring religion he thinks that the world and it's goods are real,

thus he steals them,

now if you kill someone in a dream you won't be punished, but the world is a stage that is like a dream from the perspective of God, yet it is more real than a dream,

it is a stage that people think is real, the freewill to steal that the thief thinks he has is really the product of his past lives of low thinking, to him it is real because he is a limited being--would it be just to excuse him from punishment for not knowing this?

Hope that Helps,

Guru's Grace

[sitargirl 0]

So your saying freewill does not exist and how this life is a predestined fate of our last lives....and thus punishment is according to our past actions.....and how we should therefore view life as a domino effect of past lives.

So lets go to the life where we were first born...ie the very first first first life.......who decided the first act....how could it be predestined on fate of past lives when there was no life before it....

[valli singh 0]

Very insightful question,

I suggest you read Kabir Sahib's Anurag Sagar

for a full history of the soul's descent from Sach Khand.

Based on Kabir Sahib's discourses therein,

in the begining, billions and billions of souls

emerged from God in Sach Khand, for 60 yugas

they remained there in perfect bliss for millions of years,

When the lower creation was manifested below Sach Khand,

millions and millions of these jivas lost faith in Akal Purakh

and left Sach Khand to go into the lower creation,

(thus the 'original sin' or begining of karma and seperation from the Lord)

These jivas descended lower and lower until they reached earthly incarnation,

now their karma in that first life would have been based on their interactions

in the spheres above earth i.e the causal world etc,

not to mention the 'original sin' of leaving Sach Khand to enter the lower creation

my personal feeling is that since these would have been the first humans they undoutably would have been very primitive and having a low level of mental development, they also would have likely progressed through other lower forms of life

on earth to reach that stage,

now from that first life which was based on their 'fall' from Sach Khand and their

incarnations in the regions above this physical universe--the ball of karma would logically start rolling in the spectrum of predestination,

also, even those beings very fall from Sach Khand was said by Kabir Sahib himself to have been Akal Purukh's Hukam (i.e it was predestined in the mind of God),

thus even the very first lives of the first souls to enter the material world can be said to be predetermined.

The basis is that the notion of predestination is a bitter pill to swallow for many people

as they don't like to think that they are not in control of their lives,

from a metaphysical/Gurbani-based standpoint--we do not have freewill and everything is predestined,

Gurbani says that God's Hukam created the world, that is his will

or predestined order,

this is only a philosophical concept however, as I stated earlier,

in this life and on our level we seem to have freewill, we can even believe that we have complete freewill to act as we please, but from a Gurbani-based or philosophical standpoint that freewill is illusory as only God posesses true freewill.

Guru's Grace

[Bijla Singh 332]

Here is the discussion on karma in another topic. It might help.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=40995&hl=

[alias 128]

^^ what separates us from animals is the 'choice'. the free will. yes we have predestined liives, however, we also have choice aswell. hence why we have a guru to guide us through our actions and to help us make the right decision. (the obvious implication of choice is here!)

the question arises that, how can we have 'pre-destiny' along with 'choice' as these two seem to contridict each other.

these two concepts are effectively two sides of a single coin.

from what i have understood from vast mounds of knoledge (and gurbani) that i attempt to sift through, i have found a very plausable and supplementary to the whole world of 'karam' and such things.

it is only our situations that we are predestined for, and not an outcome. we shape our own outcome from the choice we make within a particular situation, i.e. we do somthing bad (or good) in a past life, or in this life, we will reap the benefits of that action in our lives.

we are not predestined to go to hell, or heaven, it must be earned. this is in gurbani. it is said repetively that we reap the benifits of our actions. (i know that on the even larger scale, we will all go back to god due to it being the only perminant place {heaven and hell are not perminant}, but that is a conversation of one level above that we are talking at.)

this is why there is dharam raaj to deal with all the karam that we have.

god doesent make anyone commit murder (in anger obviously) or anything like that. that situation that one is put in, IS the karam. this is why we must control out mun. >gusa mun na hundaae< how we act, is up to us, and, with the help and giudance of guru, (and god!..) we will make the correct decission.

that is the true test/destiny.

as a side note, which bani is that in? the bit about 'bhagat kabirs anuraag sagar'? or where can i find that?

thanks...

gurfateh jeeo