Why does Khalistan matter anways?

[japmans]

basically hes talking about seperation of powers between state and gurdwara which he deems impossible in sikhi ( miri piri) and so how would any justice system survive as it would be dependant on the laws of god so to speak

well i think thats what hes on about

there are answers to these qns, just read any jurisprudence book

don't try to undermine the arguments.. this is a very healthy discussion about this topic..and we have seen healthy discussion on this topic for a while.. usually comes down to insults... let's see the conversation continue.... it's important that there's no insulting going on as well.. pyaar is of utmost importance.. good discussion so far Bikramjt Singh and Voiceless

[Bijla Singh]

Voiceless,

No personal attack on you but in my personal opinion you are not making any good arguments. You are talking like those yogi's followers 3HO people. I am not sure what your big point is. I mean 1) Khalistan is not needed because it already exits spiritually or 2) Khalistan cannot exist because there will be no stable government.

Sikh means seeker of the truth. A Sikh must find answers. I am a Khalistani and support Khalistan 100% because Guru Gobind Singh Ji says that sovereignty is a MUST for religion to survive. There are many more reasons but I do not want to go into that. The bottom line is that Khalistan is needed for survival of Sikh religion. Just to note that by saying Khalistan exits spiritually doesn't cut it. Gurbani clearly says that Amrit exists in our body then I can say why do we need to take Khanday Di Pahul? Harimander Sahib also exists spiritually within our body so why did Baba Deep Singh Ji and Sant Jarnail Singh Ji have to protect it from getting destroyed? I think you know what I mean. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that sovereignty is a MUST so we must try to look for answers and figure out why Guru Ji really said it. What good would a country bring to Sikhism? If we look at history, first Sikh Baba Banda Singh Bahadur established Khalsa rule in 1708 when Sikhs were in number of few hundred but within next 8-9 years Sikh population increased to 100,000. Same thing happened in Maharaja Ranjit Singh's raj. Now these Sikhs did not study the separation of church and state but many muslims and hindus wanted to live under their rule. Many people emigrated from different countries like France and America. If these Sikhs with no educa

tion could setup one of the best countries then why can't Sikhs today with so much education setup that kind of country again. Name a profession in which Sikhs have not succeeded? Sikhs are lawyers, doctors, engineers, pilots etc. so we can figure a way out. Also, the government is always setup after the independence. For example, USA constitution was written some 10 years after independence. India wrote it in 1950, three years after independence. So why do Sikhs have to setup a government now? 13 colonies faced many challenges like when writing the constitution but they solved it. Why do you think we can't? Why do you think Sikhs would fight and kill each other? This kind of thinking shows that you think Sikhs are stupid and cannot run a country. If we can make 93% of sacrifices then why can't we run a country?

That being said, now we come to some of the challenges.

1) Majority problem---During Maharaja Ranjit Singh's raj Sikhs were minority. being a minority does not mean you cannot run a country.

2) Not enough population in Punjab----Isreal's population is somewhere around 6 million and yet they are surviving. Sikhs are over 20 million in Punjab.

3) Sea Port---Many landlock countries like Switzerland, Nepal, and Afghanistan are surviving. Also, other countries sea ports can be used for trade because this is how business works. Also having a land lock country does not mean limiting Sikhism. Having a country would help Sikhism spread. I gave two examples above. have two more. In 1947 hindus were 30 million and muslims were 8.8 million in pakistan. Now there are over one billion hindus and 150 million muslims in pakistan. So country helps the religion to not only survive but also spread. A country can provide funding for preachers and we can do parchaar in lot better ways. Christianity spread because those missionaries had the power of Christian countries. USA and UK are funding the missionaries in india and they are opening up the best schools. So having a co

untry would help Sikhism and would not make it limited within the borders.

4) Moving to Khalistan-----why does anyone have to move? hindus have india but hindus live in almost every country. moving to Khalistan is a personal choice not a requirement.

My basic point is that Sikhism needs to survive. If you have will to survive then you will do everything to survive. If you are willing to do everything to survive then you will do your best to have a peaceful country that does not fall apart and make sure everybody's human rights are protected. Sikhism teaches peace and love not killing of someone. A murderer cannot be a Sikh. Killing someone in name of religion is never justifiable and of course i mean innocent human being not someone like hitler. In 500 years of our history can you point out one incident where Sikhs killed innocent people in the name of religion? Muslims have but not Sikhs.

Sikhism gives freedom of religion, speech, press and everything. Show me in Gurbani if it is not so. I think you are not familiar with Sikh politics. Emperor Jahangir was so much impressed by Guru Hargobind Ji's concepts of politics. You saying that miri piri would not make a good country so are you questioning Guru Sahib Ji that He was wrong? When Guru Ji setup this system do you think He did not think about this? Guru Ji is perfect and right. let me tell you little bit about religion and politics.

Religion teaches equality, peace, love for all humankind. Our government will adapt these principles in constitution. No one will be discriminated on base of religion, race, sex etc. Killing human beings in wrong as Sikhism states and not only that Sikhism also says that killing animals is wrong too. So someone who kills another human being will be punished by courts which will be setup by the government. You cannot be a Sikh and kill innocent humans. We have numerous examples how USA, UK and other western countries deal with these problems. Why can't we? Why do we have to be so different?

Gurdwaras will carry out religious activities and courts will be setup for political problems. Religion and politics go together but separate. For a country religion is one side of the vehicle and politics the other side. In Gurdwaras, Granthis will do religious activities and only those who have Phds in Sikhism will be appointed and people with phds in law will be appointed judges.

In my personal opinion, eating meat, drinking alcohol and smoking will be prohibited in Khalistan because no religion teaches in favor of these things. Smoking and drinking is bad for health. In Afghanistan drinking is prohibited and this country has been surviving for centuries. USA legalized smoking because the government makes billions of dollars from this but there are other ways for the government to make money. Meat is wrong because killing animals is wrong. Muslims eat halaal but Islam does not say that those who dont eat meat cannot be muslims. Sufis don't eat meat. eating meat is not a requirement in Islam. So religious freedom of muslims will not be violated. I do not think muslims and hindus have to live there. they have their own countries.

You mentioned how abortion will be dealt with in Khalistan. This is a long debate. But first we must find out what makes a woman want to have abortion? If we can get rid of those problems then it wouldnt happen. If woman has no money then the government can provide money and open health care centers. Every problem has a solution. Sikhs look for solutions and answers not just sit and start questioning and then give up.

Now, who will be the leader of Khalistan?

Panj Pyare will be the leaders of Khalistan. Elections can be held every four or five years and people will choose Panj Pyare. Every city will have Panj Pyare as its leader. Do you think Sikhs do not know anything about elections?

Again, other courts will be setup for other issues. For example, if someone wants to get divorced, he/she will not go to Akaal Takhat Sahib. When someone wants to

open up a business he/she will not go to Akaal takhat Sahib to register the property under his name. Why do you even think Sikhs cannot setup institutions that will deal with other problems? Doing business, trading, currency etc. is not part of religion so these things will be independent of Akaal Takhat Sahib. If Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not talk about business or astronomy that does not mean SIkhs cannot do business or go into space. does it? Guru Ji talks about way of life that leads to Waheguru. business, currency, biology, astronomy and other things have nothing to do with religion. Not everything has to be based on religion. Sikhs are not like Khomeini who burnt all the books by saying that all the knowledge a man needs is in quran. When it comes to way of life towards God, Guru Ji has all the answers. Other issues can be solved in different ways. Again, gotta have will to survive. Sikhs look for solutions.

This can go on and on but my point is that we can look at other countries and see how they formed governments and how they deal with some certain issues. We can do the same. Every question cannot be answered when setting up a government. USA left the issue of slavery. Laws are created as issues arise and government faces with problems. Laws can be changed. gurbani cannot be changed because truth stays the same no matter what. truth 500 years ago is still the truth. if truth needs to be changed over time then it is not the truth. It is easy to ask questions but hard to look for answers and Sikhs are hard working people. Sikhs will look for answers. if you say gurbani will conflict with laws then give me a specific situation and tell me what needs to be changed in Gurbani according to you when it comes to politics?

In my personal opinion you do not sound like a Sikh not because you are against Khalistan but because you do not have clear concept of what Sikhi really is. You asked questions which can be solved very easily and you sound like Sikhs are stupid who will not be able to run a cou

ntry. This is the impression I got but maybe I am wrong.

You can go to http://www.searchsikhism.com/issues/khalistan.htm to read more about Khalistan and I would recommend you to read Bhai Rama Singh Ji's book. It will help you a lot to understand the real Khalistan.

P.S. If your mind is set to not have Khalistan then no need to argue because my mind is set also and I don't think many people here will change their opinions.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[smartsingh24]

that was a great response. I think one sikh should take a second look at his argument.

[japmans]

im sure he or she will...

[SHEEP of HINDUSTAN]

ok you ppl write wayyy to mucch.

and if you question Guru Maharaj's hukam you are clearly

not sikh!!

KHALISTAN IS FOR THE TIGERS OF PUNJAB!

LET US CLAIM WHAT IS OURS!!

FORGOT NON-SIKHS LIKE HIM!

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[The Voice of the Voiceless]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

pakhandeebunga,

I was impressed by your dedicated response. Thank you for not showing insult and approaching my post with a critical viewpoint. I am a proud Sikh. Let me delve into your response.

First of all to address your problem with my main point:

"I am not sure what your big point is. I mean 1) Khalistan is not needed because it already exits spiritually or 2) Khalistan cannot exist because there will be no stable government. "

It is niether of these. My main point is, the development of Khalistan's infrastructure (Government, Society, Economy, Resources, Domestic and Foreign Policy) is a very critical task to accomplish. What makes things so difficult in this case (where the Gurudwara and the state of Punjab become one) is that the interpretation of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji can never be exactly the same for any one Sikhi (albiet the opinions will be similar in ideals).

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave us the power to make personal connections to Waheguru through jaap. So the seeds were sown so that each of us Sikhis viewed our Immortal Guru a certain way. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is absolute in its composition. Who are we as Sikhs to fully understand the concept of absolute Truth as the Gurus did? Who can ensure that the Khalistan we build is the Khalistan we read about in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

"The bottom line is that Khalistan is needed for survival of Sikh religion."

I agree with you. I am merely against a Khalistan borne from warfare. I believe in a land of the Khalsa Panth.

"Just to note that by saying Khalistan exits

spiritually doesn't cut it. Gurbani clearly says that Amrit exists in our body then I can say why do we need to take Khanday Di Pahul? Harimander Sahib also exists spiritually within our body so why did Baba Deep Singh Ji and Sant Jarnail Singh Ji have to protect it from getting destroyed? I think you know what I mean. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that sovereignty is a MUST so we must try to look for answers and figure out why Guru Ji really said it. "

Your questions are excellent. But I don't know what you mean. The first place you Matha Taikh and meet the Immortal Guru Granth Sahib ji is in the Gurudwara of your mind. I agree Khalistan cannot be simply spiritual, however. Gurudwaras exist today to meet our Gurus and learn their teachings. They are a connection to that spiritual world. We are here as Sikhs to bring the Khalsa Panth to every person without aggression.

Our aim should be to teach ourselves the wisdom of the Gurus to the best of our ability and work to show every Sikhi the path to Truth. (When I refer to a Sikhi, I refer to everyone on this earth as the Gurus did). Our Great Gurus viewed everyone on the path of Sikhi. Why do we look for a borderline and define our Sikhs as Punjabis and the rest of the world as Hindus, Muslims, and Christians? This is not the case in the real world. Sikhism accepts elements of every faith as a form of its own. Many of our raags and prayers were inspired by the beautiful things of many different religions including those we criticize today. Its not religion that is the problem, its people.

So I agree with you on the existence of Khalistan as a principle of fulfilling our purpose as Sikhs. I don't believe in it as a political nation.

The world is too beautiful to be scarred by borderlines. Why does Khalistan fall victim to a manmade creation?

Did the Gurus view Khalistan as lines drawn over the area over the State of Punjab? Or did they view Khalistan as the one nation that is drawn over all barriers?

"What good

would a country bring to Sikhism? If we look at history, first Sikh Baba Banda Singh Bahadur established Khalsa rule in 1708 when Sikhs were in number of few hundred but within next 8-9 years Sikh population increased to 100,000. Same thing happened in Maharaja Ranjit Singh's raj. Now these Sikhs did not study the separation of church and state but many muslims and hindus wanted to live under their rule. Many people emigrated from different countries like France and America. If these Sikhs with no education could setup one of the best countries then why can't Sikhs today with so much education setup that kind of country again."

Its not a matter of practical ideology. Or just a matter of the separation of Church and State. It was easier in the past to have the two elements so close to each other for many nations. It was after the fact that thiestic interpretation changed from something that was uncontested to something that was different between each and every person that Church-State nations number in the few today.

Punjabis can of course make their own nation if they are ambitious for one. One not connected to the Gurudwaras, but to agreed upon democratic principles (strictly a nation of the state). But it will not be a Khalistan in this case in my view at all. Not all Punjabis are Sikhs, under todays definitions, that is understood. Not all muslims live in Pakistan either. Its easy to think Khalistan will be prosperous because all Sikhs view their religion the same. That isn't the case today. Lead everyone to the path of Sikhi and the world will become the Khalistan of our dreams.

"...[the] USA constitution was written some 10 years after independence. India wrote it in 1950, three years after independence. So why do Sikhs have to setup a government now?"

You are right about the historical times between the writing of both constitutions. What were these countries like in the interim after the nation was created and the constitution written? Civil war in the America and

civil unrest in India. We should learn from the past, not mimic it.

"Why do you think we can't? Why do you think Sikhs would fight and kill each other? This kind of thinking shows that you think Sikhs are stupid and cannot run a country. If we can make 93% of sacrifices then why can't we run a country?"

We can all be a member of Khalistan. I've never said I don't believe in it. Just that I don't believe it to be something that results from war. If I said you weren't a Sikh, you would get offended. You have every right to. But what gives you the right to tell me if I'm not a Sikh? We would share the same thoughts if I said the same thing to you, pakhandeebunga. This is the root of why I believe there can be and exist today Sikhs who have killed Sikhs or Hindus or muslims. Those that commit atrocities in the name of their religion, will never be deterred from their beliefs. This thinking doesn't show that I think Sikhs are stupid. This shows that I believe Sikhism as a religion to be the words of absolution. We are human and imperfect. We can never fully understand the scope of our religion thus these things will and do occur. If you want me to give examples I will, and have in some other posts. But I am confident you understand that some individuals do rash things in the name of their religion. Its just a matter of education as you have said.

"That being said, now we come to some of the challenges.

1) Majority problem---During Maharaja Ranjit Singh's raj Sikhs were minority. being a minority does not mean you cannot run a country."

I agree. Let's bring Bani to all people. If Khalistan is an ideal of our religion, once people see the path of Sikhi, Khalistan will surely result. Its not so cut and dry as that. There's a lot of pyaar to show, teaching, and understanding and appreciating of our world and Waheguru that is involved. But don't you agree it is foolish to think that only certain people can be shown the path of Sikhi,

its absolution! Everyone can be shown without harassment or advertisement. Sikhism can incorporate any faith that revers Waheguru and the impulse to learn and control our inhibitions.

"2) Not enough population in Punjab----Isreal's population is somewhere around 6 million and yet they are surviving. Sikhs are over 20 million in Punjab."

I think Israel is not a country that can be compared to Khalistan. Israel is not a Church-State as many believe it to be. The allied powers gave the estranged Zionists a land, which they incidently also promised to the estranged Palestinians (Balfour Agreement). The land was a political endeavour not a religious one. In the scripture of the Torah, the Jewish Holy Book, Israel is a Promised Land reclaimed by the Jewish on their own accord, not by the help of outside parties. In any case, Israel was won through war. On the day of its birth, May 28th 1947, Israel was at war with five countries in that region. To this day, Israelis fight each Palestinians and struggle for survival because of the promises of the Allied Powers.

"3) Sea Port---Many landlock countries like Switzerland, Nepal, and Afghanistan are surviving. Also, other countries sea ports can be used for trade because this is how business works. Also having a land lock country does not mean limiting Sikhism. Having a country would help Sikhism spread. I gave two examples above. have two more. In 1947 hindus were 30 million and muslims were 8.8 million in pakistan. Now there are over one billion hindus and 150 million muslims in pakistan. So country helps the religion to not only survive but also spread. A country can provide funding for preachers and we can do parchaar in lot better ways. Christianity spread because those missionaries had the power of Christian countries. USA and UK are funding the missionaries in india and they are opening up the best schools. So having a country would help Sikhism and would not make it limited within the borders."

I have to disagree. All the religio

ns you have mentioned are not exclusive to the countries you've listed. There are muslims in America, Christians in India and Hindus in Switzerland. None of these countries equate the State with the Church. They are diverse, as I hope Khalistan will be. But khalistan can not escape being a state governed by the Gurudwaras. There is a difference I think, and I see Khalistan as more of an end result. Instead of building a country, why not spread the Word of Khalsa and educate others about the path towards Sikhism. More people will look forward to Khalistan. If we worked hard enough under Waheguru's eyes, the world could possibly be seen without borders anymore.

On the otherhand, having a State run country, The country of Punjab where Sikhism would be the predominant religion, would have huge possibilities for the spread of our religion like you have said. But in my view it could not be referred to as Khalistan.

"4) Moving to Khalistan-----why does anyone have to move? hindus have india but hindus live in almost every country. moving to Khalistan is a personal choice not a requirement. "

I think you will agree with me when I say Waheguru would like to see the world as Waheguru created it, as the Land of the Khalsa Panth. Through peace and diplomacy, we can achieve this I am confident. Because I believe in the persistence of Sikhs.

"Sikhism teaches peace and love not killing of someone. A murderer cannot be a Sikh. Killing someone in name of religion is never justifiable and of course i mean innocent human being not someone like hitler. In 500 years of our history can you point out one incident where Sikhs killed innocent people in the name of religion? Muslims have but not Sikhs. "

Your first sentence is absolutely correct. That is because the Word of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is absolute. But we as Sikhi will never be able to fully understand this divinity, as much as we revere it, which is why we revere it so. We are all cursed as human beings to resort to primitive act

s, those who practice Sikhism included. We cannot judge so quickly who is Sikh and who is not. That is reserved by the practicer in this day and age of religious freedom. Therefore, there are those who consider themselves Sikhs who have killed others in the name of their religion. Some confuse their religious ideals with cultural ones and this is where incidents of these sort occur. By no means does Sikhism advocate murder. It advocates self-defence and standing up for your rights. The kirpan we wear is the symbol of our pursuit of this justice. The kara we wear reminds us that even Sikhi can sometimes be tempted by crime and it makes us consider our actions. Ultimately it is between you and Waheguru what you do with the breath that was given to you.

"Sikhism gives freedom of religion, speech, press and everything. Show me in Gurbani if it is not so. I think you are not familiar with Sikh politics. Emperor Jahangir was so much impressed by Guru Hargobind Ji's concepts of politics. You saying that miri piri would not make a good country so are you questioning Guru Sahib Ji that He was wrong? When Guru Ji setup this system do you think He did not think about this? Guru Ji is perfect and right. let me tell you little bit about religion and politics. "

Sikhism gives freedom to all you have mentioned. But our culture still acts against these freedoms. Sikhism isn't the problem it is our cultural traditions that conflict our religion that need to be resolved. Caste being a very big obstacle.

We can embrace Guru Hargobind Ji's concepts of politics and His system when we can see past our cultural contradictions.

"Laws are created as issues arise and government faces with problems. Laws can be changed. gurbani cannot be changed because truth stays the same no matter what. truth 500 years ago is still the truth. if truth needs to be changed over time then it is not the truth. It is easy to ask questions but hard to look for answers and Sikhs are hard working people. Sikhs will look fo

r answers. if you say gurbani will conflict with laws then give me a specific situation and tell me what needs to be changed in Gurbani according to you when it comes to politics? "

I agree Gurbani is absolute truth. But you cannot comprehend the meaning of absolution. Because in our world things can occur in different subject realities. Laws are not absolute truth. At the same time the answers to todays problems are all in Gurbani and is something we have to search for before we use Gurbani as the laws that govern Khalistan. Laws are not the same as the laws and truths in the Guru Granth Sahib.

"Gurdwaras will carry out religious activities and courts will be setup for political problems."

This is a country where church and state is separate.

"Religion and politics go together but separate."

This doesn't make sense.

"For a country religion is one side of the vehicle and politics the other side."

Does this include Khalistan, just another country?

"In Gurdwaras, Granthis will do religious activities and only those who have Phds in Sikhism will be appointed and people with phds in law will be appointed judges."

This is ridiculously not a Church-State country. Who awards Doctor of Philosophy Degrees for Sikhism? What school of thought? And Phds in law will be appointed judges. This isn't Khalistan because there is separation between Church and State. You're outlining a 'infrastructure' to the country of Punjab.

"In my personal opinion, eating meat, drinking alcohol and smoking will be prohibited in Khalistan because no religion teaches in favor of these things. "

Because this is your personal opinion, you already state there are varying opinions among Sikhi about these restrictions. Which means that Khalistans view on the opinion could vary as well. Who decides? Those against are not Sikh? Is that justifiable?

"In Afghanistan drinking is prohibited and this country has been surviving for centuries. "

I

have to argue that making a correlation between the prohibition of alcohol and Afghanistans status as a nation is a controvercial one. What do you define as surviving? Borderlines? Afghanistan has faced civil upheaval, occupation, illiteracy, disease, poverty and strife. Hardly survival.

"Meat is wrong because killing animals is wrong. Muslims eat halaal but Islam does not say that those who dont eat meat cannot be muslims. Sufis don't eat meat. eating meat is not a requirement in Islam. So religious freedom of muslims will not be violated. "

I lost you here, I apologize. Maybe you could rephrase it?

"I do not think muslims and hindus have to live there. they have their own countries. "

As much as you'd like to believe it, India is not explicitly a 'Hindu' country. Many faiths reside in India and the consititution, (not necessarily the people) honor that as a democratic freedom. The same for Pakistan. Two thirds of Sikhs like on either side of the borders, protected by these freedoms, (again, obviously curruption has poisoned those in power and this isn't always the case). It is in writing, so it is upholdable to the law. It doesn't have a sign on it that says 'Only Hindus' allowed. To give reason that Khalistan does not include the whole of Waheguru's creation is something we must avoid. And putting religions in countries is the first act of discrimination. Regardless of what representatives of that faith have done to us in the past in the name of their religion. All religions preach peace first. People skew ideals.

"You mentioned how abortion will be dealt with in Khalistan. This is a long debate. But first we must find out what makes a woman want to have abortion? If we can get rid of those problems then it wouldnt happen. If woman has no money then the government can provide money and open health care centers. Every problem has a solution. "

An abortion is a very touchy subject. You sound as if it is something that has an

ultimate solution. What makes a woman want to have an abortion? What right is it of ours to tell a mother what to do with her unborn child. 'If we can get rid of those problems then it wouldnt happen." Its already illegal to rape a woman. Its already illegal to impregnate a woman without her consnt. How will you stop rape? "If woman has no money then the government can provide money and open health care centers. " You're already delving into subsidiaries to mothers contemplating abortion without a budget. You're oversimplifying the problem. It is an issue we must approach we make a nation that bans it or allows it.

We can't just anticipate a solution in the long run so nonchalantly. Every problem does have a solution. But some problems are solved with solutions that cause worse problems.

"Panj Pyare will be the leaders of Khalistan. Elections can be held every four or five years and people will choose Panj Pyare. Every city will have Panj Pyare as its leader. Do you think Sikhs do not know anything about elections?"

To answer your question, No, I believe Sikhs understand elections. An election involving Church and State is a different story becuase it potentially has never happened. Most Church State governments were hierarchial. There were no elections. But you are proposing there will be. Panj Pyare will be leaders of Khalistan. Who decreed that? What gives this individual the right to decide that another Panj Pyare will lead Khalistan? Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji picked Panj Pyare. It is heresy to appoint us to make a decision as perfect as His. And then to say that we pick new ones every four or five years? There has always been only Panj Pyare. These titles are mixing religion and politics in dangerous ways. And how can you force non-religious members of our Khalistan to vote for religious heads. We will restrict this freedom from them? We could come up with so many reasons why this is not thoroughly planned out.

"...other courts will be setup for other issues. For e

xample, if someone wants to get divorced, he/she will not go to Akaal Takhat Sahib. When someone wants to open up a business he/she will not go to Akaal takhat Sahib to register the property under his name. Why do you even think Sikhs cannot setup institutions that will deal with other problems? Doing business, trading, currency etc. is not part of religion so these things will be independent of Akaal Takhat Sahib."

How can this be in Khalistan where everything is ordained by the Khalsa Panth through the Gurudwaras? This isn't a Khalistan where the whole land is one Gurudwara. Its a State with predominantly Gurudwaras at different locations, and a separate government ordaining affairs of democracy. Will Khalistan be seperate Church and State in its authority over people? Our religion is all encompasing. Somehow we must learn to adapt it to everything that is a part of Khalistan whether it is business related or currency related. This is a very difficult task, but I am confident we will figure it out.

"business, currency, biology, astronomy and other things have nothing to do with religion."

Does Khalistan have everything to do with Sikhism then? I think the above are a part of society and so is religion. There must be a connection in how we do our business and what religion teaches us about interacting with each other. Sikhism teaches to search for truth. If biology is a science that seeks the same, is it not a follower of Sikh ideals? How we handle currency, astronomy and other things...are all just material occurences that we learn from based on what our Immortal Guru mentions about them. To be cautious.

"Sikhs are not like Khomeini who burnt all the books by saying that all the knowledge a man needs is in quran. "

Because that is why I love Sikhism. It advances towards Truth and does not advertise itself as absolution. It is absolution and the Immortal Guru seeks to help you achieve it.

"In my personal opinion you do not sound like a Sikh not because you are ag

ainst Khalistan but because you do not have clear concept of what Sikhi really is.

No offence to you personally, no one has the right to say if someone is following their religion correctly or not. That is discrimination. Please refrain from attacking my beliefs. Is that Sikhi?

"You asked questions which can be solved very easily..."

You never answered any of my questions. You only misinterpreted what I said and then brought up some of the issues I mentioned, only to state that we will easily solve them. You didn't solve them. You can't be so confident without searching for the Truth of the Matter.

"...and you sound like Sikhs are stupid who will not be able to run a country. This is the impression I got but maybe I am wrong. "

Why say "maybe I am wrong?" Are you confident in what you've said. You've dedicated so much time in your response and I respect that. Sikhs can and are running countries right now. But Khalistan is not just any other country. It is the ideal combination of Church and State in my opinion, and is acheivable at the grandest scale only after years of study and teaching practicing simran and bani are apart of this.

I welcome more argument. I am sorry I could not respond to all of you. I will try my best.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[10th regiment]

japmans how i am undermining the argument

what drugs are u on

i simply outlined what i thought hey argument was about

weirdo

[japmans]

thank you for calling me a wierdo. The argument, however, didn't need to be summarized.. you can' t have a debate based on summaries, and the whole discussion point has to be looked at... and personally, when i read your summary of it, you missed out on alot of points that Voice of the Voiceless made... hence, you undermined the arguement..

[Bijla Singh]

Seems like you have too much time to write but I must say that you have many misconceptions about Khalistan. Guru Ji's message does speak about uniting the humanity together but we must start from somewhere. You say why not preach to everybody about Sikhi but tell me if a Sikh goes to Afghanistan to preach and muslims kill him is there any country that will try to bring the criminals to justice? what would media do? Two villages in India became Sikhs and media portrayed it as biggest danger to hinduism. Police went to those villages and threatened to kill them all if they did not cut their hair. My point is, if you do not political power no one would listen to you. Galieleo was speaking the truth but who listened to him? Guru Arjan Dev Ji stood up for truth but those rulers never ever wanted to listen. If there is a Sikh country then indian media will have to think many times before printing something against SIkhism and bollywood will think many times before making fun of SIkhs in the hindi movie. Do you think RSS does not know the truth about Sikhism? they very well do and this is why they want to destroy it because if SIkhism spreads then it will become more powerful religion which they do not want to see. Governments have always been against SIkhism. British realized that the power of Sikhs was in Gurbani and Gurdwaras so they created many controversies regarding Gurbani and gave the controls of gurdwaras to mahants. People will listen to you if you have power. With Khalistan preaching SIkhi can be done in more effective ways. People will know the reality about SIkhism. Other countries will realize the importance of Kirpan and Turban. If there was a country representing Sikhs 9/11

attacks would not have happened and even if they did our government would have spoken against it.

I think you are not trying to think clearly here. Khalistan will open up universities where Phds in SIkhism will be given. There will be law schools. Why do you think that is impossible for SIkhs to do? your questions like "who decides" "who would do it" are so stupid. Khalistan is country of people, land of freedom and equality. Again, Sikhs will find answers to all the problems when they will setup the government. A country does not become most powerful and richest over night. it takes time. Khalistan is for Sikhism not an outcome of hatred against hindus. It is for survival of SIkh religion. If you see the whole world as land of Khalsa Panth then it must start somewhere. do you actually think Khalsa will take over the whole world over night and there will be Khalistan. Khalistan does not mean putting border around Sikhism. It means security of our faith and language. It means putting stop to attacks on SIkhs and dishonor of our women. Sikhism is 500 years old and only 30 million followers. Wait till we get Khalistan, our population will double in few years.

I am not saying that we should judge everyone and tell women what to do with their children. And why do you think there will be rapes in Khalistan? who would do such thing? Sikhs? I don't think so. We can have very strict laws and policies on this issue and give death sentences but whatever problem arise Sikhs will solve it and government will take responsible actions. Every problem has a solution. and I don't know why you keep saying Gurdwaras will interfere with the government? When the time comes Sikhs will setup a government and make sure the system works in every possible way. Sikhs are lot smarter than you think they are. if you think you are concerned with governmental structure of Khalistan then don't worry, we will take care of it. We (Sikhs) will establish a country with church and state and Sikhs will decide who gets what

kind of power.

First go to this link and read something about Khalistan. http://www.searchsikhism.com/issues/khalistan.htm

Then get a book of Bhai Rama Singh Ji to clearly understand what Khalistan is all about from religious point of view. Go do these two things then come back. Many people here will agree wiith me that reading this book will help you understand Khalsa Raj=Khalistan.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[SIKHLION]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

pakhandeebunga IS RIGHHHHT SO RIGHHHT> YOU HATE SIKHS SO MUCH VOICELESS> SOMEONE WILL STOP YOU I DONT KNOW, YOU ARE IN DANGEROUS PLACES. INTERNET IS NOT A PLACE FOR KIDS TO MAKE STUPID REMARKS> WE WILL ANSWER ALL QUESTIONS> NOTHING IS ABOVE US> WE KNOW LOTS> PAKHANDEEBUNGA THE TIGER AND THE LION WILL PURGE OUTSS PEOPLESS LIKE YOU> WITH PAKHANDEEBUNGAS BOOKSMARTS AND MY BOOKSMARTS AND TIGERS BOOOKSMARTS WE ARE SIKH FOR LIFE AND NOTHING WILL STOP US> YOU ARE CONFUSING YOURSELF YOU HATER> YOU ARE LUCKY ADMIN IS KEEPING YOU HERE> IF I WERE THEM YOU"D BE OFF OR CONVERTED OR SOMETHING> READ EVERYTHING PAKHANDEEBUNGA TOOLLD YOU TOOO> THEN YOU WILL SEE SIKHS CANNOT SURVIVE NEXT TO THOSE HINDU HATERS WE HATE THEM BECAUE THEY ARE OPRESSSORS AND THEY HURT US>>>>

BOLAYYYYYY! SONIHALLL SAT SRIAKAL.

IT DOESN"T MATTER WHO VOICELESS TA:LKS TO YOU ARTE VOICELESS HERE> LEAVE AND NEVER COME BACK> ALL YOU WANT IS TO PHASE US> WE ARE TOO SMART FOR YOU> WE KNOW WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT< RSSS!!!! I KNOW IT> DONT DENY IT> YOU ARE SOOO STUPID TO THINK YOU ARE SMARTER THAN US AND HUKHUM KHALISTAN ISNT HAPPENING BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE AGAINST US AN STOPPING OTHER SIKHS FROM GOING ALL THE WAY TO KHALISTAN>

KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALI

STAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD KHALISTAN ZINDABAD

SEE NO ONE IS WITH YOU? THEN HOW CAN YOU BE SUCH A FORCE> NO ONE AGREES WITH YOU> GIVE UP WEAKLING NOTHING CAN STOP US. YOU OFFEND BABA SANT JARNAIL SINGH JI AND ALL THE GURUS BY WHAT YOU SAY> YOU DONT DESERVE TO BE SIKH> CUT YOUR HAIR! YOU SHOULD BEOME HINDU IF YOU LOVE THEM SO MUCH RSS !!!!! WE CAN TELL WE ARE SOOOOOO MUCH SMARTER THAN YOU> :wub: :lol: :umm: :e: :e: :e: :TH:

ONE DAY WE WILL FIND YOU AND SET YOU STRAIGHT VOICELESS SO YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A VOICE HERE AGAIN.

PUKHANDEEBUNGA OUTSMARTED YOU TOO MUCH> YOU SHOULD NEVER POST HERE AGAIN.

LETS KILL ALL SIKHHATERS! SIKHHATERS = ALL HINDUS SIKHHATERS = VOICELESS HAHA> SIKHATERS WILL BE VOICELESS FOREVER >

BOLAYYYY SONIHAL SAT SRI AKAL

I WILL BE HERE AS LONG AS YOU ARE VOICELESS AND I , PUKHANDEEBUNGA THE TIGER AND EVERYONE WILL BRING YOU DOWN TO THE GROUND TO MATHA TAIKH PROPERLY YOU HINDULOVER>

LETS ALL DESTROY THE OPRESSORS FOR KHALSA PANTH AND KHALISTAAN!

WAHEGURU BLESSES US TO DESTROY DEFILERS OF HIS WORLD>

I NEVER BELIEVED THE DEVIL WAS REAL BUT WAHEGURU COULDN"T HAVE MADE SOMEONE AS FILTHY AS YOU..

Bulchukamaaf!!!!!

LETS GET ON WITH THINGS. LETS CHANGE THIS POST ALL TOGETHER> THIS POST NEEDS TO BE PURIFIED>

I TELL YOU THERE ARE OVER 3000 ORGANIZATIONS IN THE WORLD TODAY> AS SIKHS WE MUST PUT ON THE ARMOR OF KHALSA AND BRING JUSTICE TO ALL. ONCE KHALISTAN IS MADE WHO WILL LEAD OUR ARMIES? WHO SHOULD WE PURIFY OF THEIR VILENESS FIRST> AFTER HINDUS OF COURSE. SO WHO? ANYONE? VOICELESS CANT ANSWER HE IS VOICELESS SEE????

BOLYAAAAAY SONIHAL SATSRIAKAL

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!