A Correct Interpretation Of Dasam Bani

[Harinder_Singh]

It all depends on intention of an individual who is trying to illustrate shakti form of Vahiguroo. If sikh worship and or prasiing only shakti aspect of Vahiguroo via these pictures or other way and limiting all other aspects of vahiguroo and not worship nirgun form of vahiguroo via shabad without any question, he/she committing idol worshiping, should be condemned by Gurmat.

However, there is a difference between worshiping shakti form of vahiguroo and praising shakti form of Vahiguroo. I yet to see an nihang khalsa or any khalsa worshiping shakti form of vahiguroo via these pictures above, but according to gurmat sidhant, shakti form of vahiguroo whichever form it might be its praised not worshiped in sri dasam granth, there many glorifying examples already posted on the forums. I do admit i have seen nang idiots deliberately wearing t shirts of devta's like ganesh, shiva, lakshmi devi just to tick off other party. That is totally un-acceptable and cause un neccesary divide among brothers. But i am sure bhai jwala singh ji intentions not that at all, its far from it. He is merely following sri dasam granth sahib sidhant of praising shakti of vahiguroo which happen to be in many forms.

If other party whole issue is do with picture of kali devi or other devi being posted on the blog, i m sorry to say you guys have lost the plot. If pictures of various symbolism of shakti is your only issue, than instead of accusing other party of bhaut bharshti(idol worshipers), you yourself are stuck in the dandal( deep cycle) of bhaut(idol) symbolism of shakti and cannot get pass the bhaut and failed to recognize the shakti aspect of Vahiguroo.

Fine lets change pictures around, lets give an example of narsingha(driving force of vahiguroo - shakti) transcendent into this earth despite of all vars (no one destroy to me, human nor animal, nor in day nor in night), despite of all these vars given to harnakash, narsingha gave him death. Lets talk about picture of narsingha episode as its more acceptable in gurmat because direct reference in gurbani:

If dhoti, tilak wearing, multi arm narsingha picture which illustratious shakti form of vahiguroo praised or acceptable in gurmat ,why not other forms of shakti?? Is it only because other forms of shakti is shared by other religion? Well narsingha avtar is reverred an shakti form of Vahiguroo in hindu dharam too? Just because of Shakti form of Vahiguroo is appreciated/praised in other dharam does not make them automatically anti gurmat, look by rising above boundaries of dharam, religious ideologies, any Victorian abrahamic influence then you will see no specific dharam owns various form of shakti of Vahiguroo.

Fine, lets give you guys peace of mind, I am going to be blunt here, lets do a jora of kali matta change her picture a bit, put a dastar on her head, change the trishul weapon to khanda(bhaugati) instead of dead skuls mala around her head, put sarbloh mala of sarbloh weapons attached to it. Now is that symbolism of shakti good enough for you guys? or its still hindufied for you guys?

Don't accuse others of idol worshipers when your own eyes cannot see driving force behind symbolism be it (khanda, kali devi, sarbloh weapons, utensils), don't accuse others of idol worshipers when your eyes cannot get pass cham of symbols.

over and out..!

N30Singh,

Durga(Chandi) is NOT the shakti form of Vaheguru. She is just a creation just as Ram, Krishan etc.. The shakti form of Vaheguru is KHANDA(NAAM) and thats what is explained by Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee. Whenever Durga, Ram, Krishan did some good thing, they took power from Vaheguru's Khanda.

[N30S1NGH]

Kulbir singh ji shared his views based on bhai sahib randhir singh ji anubhav what he felt, he is probably right within his own surti. But i wish to remind, rest of mahapursh from different school of thoughts (taksal, nirmale, nihangs, udasi) disagree with his interpretation just many other things in gurmat are humbly and piolitely disagree within gurmukhs.

To put it bluntly, just because bhai sahib randhir singh ji wrote shakti form is khanda which is naam does not make it gospel truth as there are different naam abhyaasi gurmukh with same avastha as bhai sahib ji felt otherwise on this topic.

But as i said, bhai sahib randhir singh ji anubhav what he felt, he is probably right within his own surti.

Please read this discussion between Kulbir singh and I on gurbani supports meta reality: http://www.tapoban.o...orum/read.php?1,4508

[GPS]

Nobody ever told that Durga is considered as shakti of waheguru in sikhism.

Chandi is not personified in Dasam Granth.Chandi in Dasam Granth means sri sahib as is clear from verse 19 of chandi di vaar.

Khanda is a force of destruction in the verse below

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

The above means before God created this world he also created force of destruction symbolized by khanda in this verse.

[GPS]

N30 singh ji

Hindus consider Durga as supreme power and there is no power above her. In simple words she is God in herself.

Sikhism rejects that.For sikhs she is just a creation of akal purakh.

We should not mix two different schools of thoughts as there is no need to do that.

[N30S1NGH]

Sorry i was not trying to mix different school of thoughts, if i did that unintentionally please forgive me. All along in my post, i try to keep distinction between worshiping shakti form of Vahiguroo( not acceptable in Gurmat) and praising shakti form of Vahiguroo couplets ultimately going back in nirgun praise (acceptable in Gurmat).

[singhfauja]

sikhreality ji,

I have heard Baba Inderjit Singh's katha on Bhagauti Astotr. Besides the initial explanation of 'ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇi', everything he spoke about was according to Gurmat.

He interpreted 'ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਜੀ ਸਹਾਇi' stating that 'ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ' even protects Akal Purakh Sahib. With all due respect, I will have to disagree with Bhai Sahib's interpretation.

WaheGuru Ji is unfathomable and much Greater than His Shakti - He does NOT need protection from anything, nor does have have enemies or equals.

Why would Sri Dasam Patshah say that Bhagauti protects WaheGuru Ji, when he knows WaheGuru Ji is the source of Bhagauti.

Rather, Sri Dasam Patshah's Banis is stating that may 'ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ', the Power of WaheGuru protect us.

Also, I failed to find any audio interpretations about the following statements on the blog:

...the Devi appeared before Guru Gobind Singh Ji and gave Her dagger [karad] to Guru Gobind Singh Ji for use in the Amrit Sanchaar [ref Suraj Prakash and Puratan Rehatnamas]. Giani Baba Inderjit Singh Ji also confirmed this with me.

sikhreality ji, can you provide more clarification on why a female Devi gave her dagger to Guru Gobind Singh Ji?

We have already discussed that Giani Gian Singh admitted mistakes were made by him and other historians in the past about "devi" being pargat before the Amrit Sanchaar, and he clarifies his stance in the 3rd edition of "Twareekh Khalsa."

Are you stating that you stand by the notion that some devi did appear before SatGuru Ji before Vaisakhi 1699?

sikhreality ji, you have also said you are just presenting views of old manuscripts, but you seem have plenty of opinions about TRUE Panthic scholars like Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha, Giani Ditt Singh, Bhai Vir Singh Ji, and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, you have referred to them "neo-scholars."

Firstly, "I" do not say anything, I merely post real old historical documentation rather than neo-scholars.

You also seem to hold a grudge against them for their nonparallel role in the Singh-Sabha and Gurdwara Reform Movement.

Thirdly, the above "scholars' that you mentioned have all one thing in common, they were present during the Gurdrawa Reform Movement and British Rule, and all wanted to separate themselves and run as far away from concepts that related to Hinduism as much as possible.

Why do we need to be close to Hindus? Have you forgotten the state of the Sikhs after the fall of Raja Ranjit Singh's Raj?

When Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha wrote "Ham Hindu Nahi" and Giani Dit Singh wrote "Durga Parbodh", Hindu murtis has been installed at Sri Darbar Sahib, and most Sikhs were calling themselves Hindus, and worshiping devi, devtas, and getting according to Hindu rites. So-called low caste Sikhs were not allowed to enter many Gurdwara Sahibs.

Who woke up the Sikh Nation at this time? The Nihangs? The Nirmalas? The Udasees? NO. Sadly most of them were also following the above manmats.

This is a historic fact and it can be verified. It was the Singh Sabha and the Gurdwara Sudhar Lehar that cleaned up the mess.

The above Gurmukhs whom you are referring to as "neo-scholars" played a HUGH role in revitalizing the Khalsa spirit during those dark times.

Why is the obsession of being close to Hindus? According to Gurmat they are blind, and see no role of Akal Purakh in anything. All they see are their deities.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji states:

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ and ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ and ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍‍ਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ (Baba NaamDev Ji)

Dasam Patshah goes even further and points at the corruption of these faiths in ਉਗ੍ਰਦੰਤੀ : ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪੰਥ ਮੈ ਕਪਟ ਵਿਦਯਾ ਚਲਾਨੀ॥ ਬਹੁਰ ਤੀਸਰੋ ਪੰਥ ਕੀਨੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੀ॥

What is wrong with showing our distinction from the above corruption? That was the whole idea behind the Singh Sabha Lehar.

[GPS]

I appreciate singh sabha lehar as they gave organizational strength to sikhs.But they had their weak points also.

They were the ones who opposed struggle of Maharaja dalip singh to regain his kingdom just to prove as toadies

of british.

[guruvah]

going a bit off topic here...please go through this pangti

ਦੇਵਾ ਪਾਹਨ ਤਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥

ਰਾਮ ਕਹਤ ਜਨ ਕਸ ਨ ਤਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

(ang 345 )

When a Hindu says Raam, he pictures Raam Chandar of Ayodhya. Is he the same ਰਾਮ mentioned in Gurbani???

Deva , this word actually refers to deities (devi devteh-Saraswati,Shiva,Lakhshmi and so on) for Hindus.

Is ਦੇਵਾ in the pangti above being made to gods/deities or Sri Waheguroo ji?

These words may be similar. But Guru Sahib has done the TRUE arths(meanings) of these words in Gurbani.

In the SAME way Guru Sahib have also done the TRUE arths of Bhagauti,Chandi, Devi and other such words in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

Those who hold psuedo-Nihangs and pro-Sanatani Nirmala and Udassee minded ideologies. The Anti Sri Dasam Granth brigade have & are using these "views" held by them to attack Sri Dasam Granth viciously. They generally tell the sangat to compare these "views" with the Gurbani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

This is the very reason they have been able to gain support and plant the seed of doubt. Because the viewpoint held by psuedo-Nihangs ,pro-Sanatani Nirmala and Udassee minded individuals are just flawed if compared with Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

It just doesnt make sense with Tat Gurmat of Khalsa Panth. :excl:

[Only five]

Sorry i was not trying to mix different school of thoughts, if i did that unintentionally please forgive me. All along in my post, i try to keep distinction between worshiping shakti form of Vahiguroo( not acceptable in Gurmat) and praising shakti form of Vahiguroo couplets ultimately going back in nirgun praise (acceptable in Gurmat).

Singh, when Sikhs bow to shastr and do shastr di puja is that not worshiping the shakti of Vaheguru? And why is worshiping the shakti of Vaheguru not gurmat?

This questions is open to anyone that knows.

[singhfauja]

I appreciate singh sabha lehar as they gave organizational strength to sikhs.But they had their weak points also.

They were the ones who opposed struggle of Maharaja dalip singh to regain his kingdom just to prove as toadies

of british.

Bhai Sahib Ji,

Every organization has weak points, they are never perfect - look at the state of current Panthic organizations.

We should not be too eager and group everyone together during them Singh Sabha movement as "British toadies" just because they did not approve of Raja Dalip Singh's return.

Just as today if we don't advertise ourselves as "Khalistani" does not mean we are 'Indian toadies'.

It needs to be noted when Thakur Singh Sandhawalia (who tried to organize Dalip Singh's return) was heading the Singh Sabha, Giani Dit Singh was second in command.

The real British toadies were the aristocrats and Sanatists like Khem Singh Bedi who headed Singh Sabha Amritsar.

Giani Ditt Singh was considered a low-caste Sikh, and was not even allowed to take parshad at many Gurdwaras. For him and Singh Sabha Lahore there were more serious issues in the Panth than worrying about re-establishing "Sikh Monarchy" which itself was not Gurmat based. He obviously did not share the same dream of Dalip Singh's return that Sandhawalia did.

Sandhawalia was also from an aristocrat family, and his vision of the return of "Sikh Monarchy" was not practical.

Giani Ditt Singh, Prof. Gurmukh Singh, Kahn Singh Nabha, Bhai Vir Singh and others spent time doing real Gurmat parchar and revitalized the Singh Sabha. To call them British toadies, is far from the truth. In reality, the real British toadies were the aristocrats and Satanists.

After the fall of the Sikh Raj, Chardi Kala Gurmukhs like Baba Karam Singh Hotimardan, Baba Maghar Singh, Baba Attar Singh Mastuana served in the Biritsh Army - but they are never referred to as British toadies. Such was the time and circumstance.