Amazing Painful Revolutionary Way Of Protesting For The Cause

[Gurmat Sangeet]

Sikhi isnt as black and white as people like to have it these days.... what brother Five is unable to understand is that during the times of our shaheeds, the oppression and tyranny was in the form of a government which physically imposed their the death. In the case of this monk it was again the Government of the time which caused a situation aroun the Monks death tyrannous, dont forget most of our shaheeds if not all had options, the option to convert and avoid death but no they "chose" death rather than converting. Transpose that very idea to this Monks situation, didnt the monk also "choose" deatht than to carry on taking the abuse the Diem regime imposed on southern vietnamese monks? Fair enough there was no jalaad there but his situation was the jalaad. He knew that in his self immolation the world would rise up and bring an end to the oppression of Buddhists, which it did. Therefore his act is not suicide. If his self immolation was for the betterment of his qaum then he is a shaheed. Suicide by your definition is "willingly giving yp your life" , didnt Sahib Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji Maharaj "willingly give up his life" for Hindus? Maharaj's shaheedi is mahaaan param mahaan, no one can compare anyones shaheedi to our Satgurus as they are Gods incarnated light on earth. But to belittle a shaheed such as this monk is ghor paap.

SUICIDE IS WHEN A PERSON LOOSES ALL HOPE AND REFUSES TO GO ON, BECAUSE HE/SHE HASNT THE MENTAL OR PHYSICAL STRENGTH. THIS MONK DIDNT LOOSE HOPE INFACT HE HAD HOPE, HOPE IN THAT HIS "SACRIFICE" WILL BRING ABOUT CHANGE. THIS MONK HAD THE MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRENGTH TO GO AHEAD WITH THE ACT WHEREAS MOST PEOPLE WOULD TAKE EASY ROUTE SUCH AS SLEEPING PILL OVERDOSE ETC TO INDUCE AND EASY PAINLESS DEATH.

[chatanga]

Paji with all due respect if you listen to katha of this prasang by mahapurakh they say that the sword was not able to cut maahraj's sees; maharaj themselves disjoined their head from their deh and it fell into the sevaks hands. Maharaj ji willingly gave up their sees.

why Guru Dasam Patshah gave Baba Banda Bahadur the task of killing the executioners of Guru Tegh Bahadur then?

why would Guru have an innocent man killed?

[chatanga]

Any one who gives up his own life for against tyranny is a martyr regardless.

There is a HUGE difference between suicide as an escape from worldly problems and to that of giving up your own life to impact the freedom of future generations.

Anyone who has given their own life up and made the ultimate sacrifice against tyranny has achieved the greatest status of Shaheedi.

my vidya Guru told me that status of a shaheed is 2nd to God, so even if technically he did commit suicide, the monk still is a shaheed, and I dont think that Waheguru would hold this against him.

the thing is, that we see this act as a man killing himslef, but the act was actually a strike, a vaar, against the govt of the time, the enemy, so i dont think the suicide would be too bothering to Waheguru, myself.

[dalsingh101]

the thing is, that we see this act as a man killing himslef, but the act was actually a strike, a vaar, against the govt of the time, the enemy, so i dont think the suicide would be too bothering to Waheguru, myself.

I think this is spot on. Well put.

He struck a blow to a zulmi sarkar within the remit of his own dharam (I presume as I know nothing of Buddhism). Just because it doesn't fit into our Sikh way of doing things, doesn't make it wrong.

I tell you, some of you guys are some seriously narrow minded geezers........

N30 already made a point, that if the guy had been an apna protesting against 1984 a lot of people would probably be calling him a maha shaheed. Plus when I read more recent Sikh history I swear I've read of a few occasions of 'Sikh leaders' who've threatened self immolation or 'fasts till death' in some protest or another. If I recall rightly Fateh Singh was one such person who threatened this (some time in the 70s) over the way Punjab was robbed of Chandigarh. When he did this, no one made any noise about it being 'unSikh', even if the guy never ended up doing it in the end for whatever reason.

I'm not promoting or recommending self immolation to anyone by the way, in case some dimwit takes it that way.

[Mindless]

Sikhi isnt as black and white as people like to have it these days.... what brother Five is unable to understand is that during the times of our shaheeds, the oppression and tyranny was in the form of a government which physically imposed their the death. In the case of this monk it was again the Government of the time which caused a situation aroun the Monks death tyrannous, dont forget most of our shaheeds if not all had options, the option to convert and avoid death but no they "chose" death rather than converting. Transpose that very idea to this Monks situation, didnt the monk also "choose" deatht than to carry on taking the abuse the Diem regime imposed on southern vietnamese monks? Fair enough there was no jalaad there but his situation was the jalaad. He knew that in his self immolation the world would rise up and bring an end to the oppression of Buddhists, which it did. Therefore his act is not suicide. If his self immolation was for the betterment of his qaum then he is a shaheed. Suicide by your definition is "willingly giving yp your life" , didnt Sahib Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji Maharaj "willingly give up his life" for Hindus? Maharaj's shaheedi is mahaaan param mahaan, no one can compare anyones shaheedi to our Satgurus as they are Gods incarnated light on earth. But to belittle a shaheed such as this monk is ghor paap.

SUICIDE IS WHEN A PERSON LOOSES ALL HOPE AND REFUSES TO GO ON, BECAUSE HE/SHE HASNT THE MENTAL OR PHYSICAL STRENGTH. THIS MONK DIDNT LOOSE HOPE INFACT HE HAD HOPE, HOPE IN THAT HIS "SACRIFICE" WILL BRING ABOUT CHANGE. THIS MONK HAD THE MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRENGTH TO GO AHEAD WITH THE ACT WHEREAS MOST PEOPLE WOULD TAKE EASY ROUTE SUCH AS SLEEPING PILL OVERDOSE ETC TO INDUCE AND EASY PAINLESS DEATH.

beautifully said/written

[Only five]

Sikhi isnt as black and white as people like to have it these days.... what brother Five is unable to understand is that during the times of our shaheeds, the oppression and tyranny was in the form of a government which physically imposed their the death. In the case of this monk it was again the Government of the time which caused a situation aroun the Monks death tyrannous, dont forget most of our shaheeds if not all had options, the option to convert and avoid death but no they "chose" death rather than converting. Transpose that very idea to this Monks situation, didnt the monk also "choose" deatht than to carry on taking the abuse the Diem regime imposed on southern vietnamese monks? Fair enough there was no jalaad there but his situation was the jalaad. He knew that in his self immolation the world would rise up and bring an end to the oppression of Buddhists, which it did. Therefore his act is not suicide. If his self immolation was for the betterment of his qaum then he is a shaheed. Suicide by your definition is "willingly giving yp your life" , didnt Sahib Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji Maharaj "willingly give up his life" for Hindus? Maharaj's shaheedi is mahaaan param mahaan, no one can compare anyones shaheedi to our Satgurus as they are Gods incarnated light on earth. But to belittle a shaheed such as this monk is ghor paap.

Here is a question, can't a sacrifice also be described as a suicide?

Also, i'm not trying to be rude, but you need to look at how i replied to sikh soldier. In there it's clearly showed how Satguru's shaheddi in the 9th form is not self inflicted but done by force.

SUICIDE IS WHEN A PERSON LOOSES ALL HOPE AND REFUSES TO GO ON, BECAUSE HE/SHE HASNT THE MENTAL OR PHYSICAL STRENGTH. THIS MONK DIDNT LOOSE HOPE INFACT HE HAD HOPE, HOPE IN THAT HIS "SACRIFICE" WILL BRING ABOUT CHANGE. THIS MONK HAD THE MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRENGTH TO GO AHEAD WITH THE ACT WHEREAS MOST PEOPLE WOULD TAKE EASY ROUTE SUCH AS SLEEPING PILL OVERDOSE ETC TO INDUCE AND EASY PAINLESS DEATH.

Losing hope and then killing yourself is one form of suicide. By your defintion of suicide then the terrorist that blow up the twin tours were not on a sucidal mission. What about the the people that attach a bomb to themselves and blow themselves up. Your defintion is way to narrow and suicide is defined by the word intent. Again read the post I wrote to Sikh soldier, it clearly shows what intent means, regarding suicide. The reason doesn't matter when it comes to the definition of suicide. ONLY the intention of taking your life matters. That's how suicide is defined generally and thats how Gurbani looks at it. Read Sri Jap Ji Sahib where Satguru speaks of hukams. I explained this also in the post to sikh soldier.

[dalsingh101]

Only 5. You don't know what you're talking about man.

How can you diss the monk for making a qurbani for his faith?

Plus we have precedents in our older and more modern itihass with Bibi Anup Kaur and Fateh Singh anyway.

If you must get worked up and fight with other apnay over stuff, do it over something worthwhile dude.

That's one angry Canuck brother.....someone over there, give him a hug man.....

And please tell us how old you are if you don't mind. I've got a feeling you are a teenager?