Disrespectful "Track"!

[chatanga 1,058]

But can you provide the Hukam here for everyone where it says kirtan can only be done in raag.

If i knew where to look for it, i would provide it here.

Well I assume that as the Word of the Guru is Hukam, if Guru Sahib has written the raag expressly in the Sir-lek of the shabad we dont need to look elsewhere for any hukam on how we should be doing that shabad. To look elsewhere is just manmat.

Does maharaaj actually care how we do his simran as long as we are actually doing something that truly helps us in doing his simran?

Yes maharaaj does care, otherwise he wouldnt have set his eternal saroop according to raag.

I would like to ask you :

did Guru Ji ever give us any teaching or shabad that was not necessary?

[SikhRoots 7]

Just out of curiosity, do you think people like Bhagat Namdev and others who were poor and uneducated always repeated God's name and done simran, keertan in the raags?

But I do have to add, it's a shame to see such tracks such as this out there on the net. Trance and dance do not go with Gurbani. The filmi music some of you guys refer to are from really old puraatan reetaan as well, just because Bollywood produces use these reetaan, does not necessarily mean they originated from the filmi world.

[chatanga 1,058]

Just out of curiosity, do you think people like Bhagat Namdev and others who were poor and uneducated always repeated God's name and done simran, keertan in the raags?

The filmi music some of you guys refer to are from really old puraatan reetaan as well, just because Bollywood produces use these reetaan, does not necessarily mean they originated from the filmi world.

I dont know if that question actually makes sense as the Guru's accorded specific raags to the shabads, not the Bhagats themselves. The Bhagats did not accord raags to the shabads. Anyway how Bhagat Ji did kirtan would not be of consequence here as Guru in later time specified the raag superceding any form of kirtan that had taken place earlier.

Film industry has borrowed from classical indian music, and vice versa, but in these times the balance has shifted from mutual borrowing to excessive borrowing on the part of kirtanis from the film industry. Its why majority of kirtan has no or negligible spiritual effect on sangat.

[GuptUnknown 143]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sant Attar Singh Ji Mastuana Wale used to sing glorious praises of God's many ways. Here is a small sakhi.

Sant Ji used to sing the holy hymns in a simple manner and got the Sangat to do so. Once, Bhai Didar SIngh thought that Sant Ji did not have the knowledge of the Ragas. Instantly at the completion of the Shabad, Sant Ji sang another Shabad in a peculiar mood, keeping in view the timeliness of the Raags according to the time of the day. Sant Ji said, "The true followers of Guru Nanak do not need to learn the Raags. They acquire this skill without any special worldly efforts."

Phull Chuk Maf

Waheguru Ji Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[JSinghnz 1,086]

I dont know if that question actually makes sense as the Guru's accorded specific raags to the shabads, not the Bhagats themselves. The Bhagats did not accord raags to the shabads. Anyway how Bhagat Ji did kirtan would not be of consequence here as Guru in later time specified the raag superceding any form of kirtan that had taken place earlier.

Film industry has borrowed from classical indian music, and vice versa, but in these times the balance has shifted from mutual borrowing to excessive borrowing on the part of kirtanis from the film industry.

Its why majority of kirtan has no or negligible spiritual effect on sangat.

Please keep such sweeping opinions to yourself. Sikh sangat is getting a very positive spiritual effects from kirtan.

[chatanga 1,058]

Please keep such sweeping opinions to yourself. Sikh sangat is getting a very positive spiritual effects from kirtan.

its not MY opinion what counts, its Guru Ji's Hukam or example. Thats all that we need. We dont need manmat in this. Only Guru's mat, and if you find that offensive, maybe it tells us more about you sir.

[gurmukhsodhi 21]

I am not sure whether I should create separate topic or not but I want to ask

"Today, which raagis do kirtan according to raags?

If harmonium cannot produce the desired raags what about the kirtan which daily take place in the Harminder Sahib Ji?

I am novice of music. So just want to learn these things.

[JSinghnz 1,086]

its not MY opinion what counts, its Guru Ji's Hukam or example. Thats all that we need. We dont need manmat in this. Only Guru's mat, and if you find that offensive, maybe it tells us more about you sir.

It is not Gurmat which is being reflected in your opinion, it just an exercise of condemning something to satisfy your own negative self.

[SikhRoots 7]

My point was, you don't have to be a "raagi" to be able to sing mantras or keertan. But agreed, there's limits to that. If you talk about what those limits are, then we will go around in circles forever on this forum because everyone will have their own idea on where to draw the line.

Big respect to those that do sing in pure raag compositions though and I personally think everyone should learn raags. I just don't feel it should excuse those that don't, from singing Gurbani.

[Only five 1,120]

Well I assume that as the Word of the Guru is Hukam, if Guru Sahib has written the raag expressly in the Sir-lek of the shabad we dont need to look elsewhere for any hukam on how we should be doing that shabad. To look elsewhere is just manmat.

When Giani Thakur Singh ji did Katha of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, he was accused by others that he has not gone into the deeper meaning of Shabad Guru. They said Giani ji has failed the Taksal as the others katha was deep by all three Jathedars of the Taksal. They called him names. Giani ji, explained to these people that he knows it and is not going into the deeper meaning for a reason. The reason behind it, was so those that barely read Gurbani, they can listen to Katha and understand it. A first grade student can't understand what a 10th grade student can.

No doubt Satguru said do kirtan of Gurbani in Raag. But to get the key message across to the sangat that have barely any knowledge of Satguru, a method can be used, that doesn't distort Gurbani. The Ragis you listed don't distort the message of Gurbani and don't take away the spiritual effect on the sangat. Meditating on one tuk of Gurbani takes a Sikh to Sachkhand. Kirtan Jathas with the tune get the sangat to sing the one shabad with them and the sangat go home with at least one tuk still being played in their mind. The instruments are there to help guide the weak minds, who can't catch Gurbani by just reading.

Also there is no way a person can say that the original posters video is the same as what the Ragis are doing. IF you do, then its like saying a dog is a cat and a cat is a dog. The Ragis are taking a tune that goes with the Shabad and do kirtan. The original posters video has taken a tune that completely distorts the Shabad. You can't even hear the Shabad or know which one is being sung. Instead of the instruments attaching the listener to the Shabad (as the Kirtan Jathas do), they have attached the listener to the tune. It's the complete opposite.

Kirtan of Shabads can be done, so beginners can get attached to the shabad, but the completely correct way is to do Kirtan in Raag. The advanced Sikhs that are able to completely understand the Raag, they can listen to kirtan in that form. For beginners like me, I listen to Kirtan done in Raag and when it is done on a Shabad. And i have not noticed any difference, where the spiritual effect was lost on me, done either way.

Don't knock down a positive move forward.

[chatanga 1,058]

When Giani Thakur Singh ji did Katha of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, he was accused by others that he has not gone into the deeper meaning of Shabad Guru. They said Giani ji has failed the Taksal as the others katha was deep by all three Jathedars of the Taksal. They called him names. Giani ji, explained to these people that he knows it and is not going into the deeper meaning for a reason. The reason behind it, was so those that barely read Gurbani, they can listen to Katha and understand it. A first grade student can't understand what a 10th grade student can.

That is not a comparable situation tp this. Lets say a newcomer to raag would first learn its roh and avroh, then move onto sapaat tana and so on. That is what you are describing with the way that Giani Ji and the Sants before him did. That is the correct way to do it.

The difference between the circumstances you have mentioned are that most importantly the Sant were the heads of the Taksal and their sangat would be newcomers with experienced students of Taksal, and also ordinary sangat members, like msyelf. Sant Gurbachan Singh had a massive entourage with him wherever he went. If im not mistaken i think it was about 150 students who were with him. Sant Kartar Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh also had groups, who stayed with them permanently. Giani Ji has who in his entourage? So not only the ordinary sangat were catered for, but also the Taksalis as well by the Sants.

Also there is no way a person can say that the original posters video is the same as what the Ragis are doing. IF you do, then its like saying a dog is a cat and a cat is a dog. The Ragis are taking a tune that goes with the Shabad and do kirtan. The original posters video has taken a tune that completely distorts the Shabad. You can't even hear the Shabad or know which one is being sung. Instead of the instruments attaching the listener to the Shabad (as the Kirtan Jathas do), they have attached the listener to the tune. It's the complete opposite.

What the OP video shows is the message of Gurbani has been enveloped or smothered by the obtrusive music around it. What kirtanis, not raagis, are doing are simliar in that they are not allowing to true emotion of the shabad to be revealed when they just add their own manmat tunes to it. Dogs and cats? Maybe, or maybe dogs that meeow, or cats that bark.

Kirtan of Shabads can be done, so beginners can get attached to the shabad, but the completely correct way is to do Kirtan in Raag. The advanced Sikhs that are able to completely understand the Raag, they can listen to kirtan in that form. For beginners like me, I listen to Kirtan done in Raag and when it is done on a Shabad. And i have not noticed any difference, where the spiritual effect was lost on me, done either way.

You will NEVER find anyone who will say that they completely understand the raag, thats like someone saying they completely know Gurbani or God. I am not advanced in Gurmat Sangeet, or Raag Vidya but I listen to kirtan in that form. so to say that advanced Sikhs are able to listen to that form only is not true.

And again if you havent noticed the difference between Gurmat(Gurmat Sangeet) and Manmat(whatever sounds good) then you must be without emotion, probably a robot or something. Like Terminator or something.

[chatanga 1,058]

It is not Gurmat which is being reflected in your opinion, it just an exercise of condemning something to satisfy your own negative self.

like i said Ji, its not my opinion that counts, its the hukam of Guru Ji that counts.

[Only five 1,120]

That is not a comparable situation tp this. Lets say a newcomer to raag would first learn its roh and avroh, then move onto sapaat tana and so on. That is what you are describing with the way that Giani Ji and the Sants before him did. That is the correct way to do it.

You need to understand that the Raagi Jatha are learned and the sangat are the first class students. Just like in the example i gave, Giani ji is learned and the sangat listening to his katha are first grade students.

The difference between the circumstances you have mentioned are that most importantly the Sant were the heads of the Taksal and their sangat would be newcomers with experienced students of Taksal, and also ordinary sangat members, like msyelf. Sant Gurbachan Singh had a massive entourage with him wherever he went. If im not mistaken i think it was about 150 students who were with him. Sant Kartar Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh also had groups, who stayed with them permanently. Giani Ji has who in his entourage? So not only the ordinary sangat were catered for, but also the Taksalis as well by the Sants.

You gone completely off point and have not understood the example given of Giani ji.

What the OP video shows is the message of Gurbani has been enveloped or smothered by the obtrusive music around it. What kirtanis, not raagis, are doing are simliar in that they are not allowing to true emotion of the shabad to be revealed when they just add their own manmat tunes to it. Dogs and cats? Maybe, or maybe dogs that meeow, or cats that bark.

I'm glad you recognize how the OP's video has completely smothered the Shabad, then you add the Kirtan Jathas are doing the similar. Similar would mean they have smothered the shabad not to the extent of the OP's video, but to a certain degree close to the OP's video. Which anyone can see is not true. You have a biased here and it shows. The Ras received from these Kirtan Jathas Kirtan is not at all inhibiting the true emotions of the shabad to come out. For you it might be, but not for others. And speaking objectively the shabad brings out the true emotions in a person itself and in the kirtan jathas case there is no hinderance on the letting the true emotions of the shabad to be revealed.

You will NEVER find anyone who will say that they completely understand the raag, thats like someone saying they completely know Gurbani or God. I am not advanced in Gurmat Sangeet, or Raag Vidya but I listen to kirtan in that form. so to say that advanced Sikhs are able to listen to that form only is not true.

So is it not good to take it one shabad at a time and also listen to Raag kirtan. I haven't said once anything bad about Raag kirtan, but you continue to hate on kirtan done on shabads.

And again if you havent noticed the difference between Gurmat(Gurmat Sangeet) and Manmat(whatever sounds good)

Who calls it Manmat sounds? ONly you do and it's your own hinderance that doesn't let you see the virtues in doing kirtan of shabads. All the Sants listened to it. Giani Thakur Singh ji in the same way was called to be manmat person and not helping the Panth out. ONly did the people that slandered him realize after that he was doing a favor for the less forunate Sikhs.

then you must be without emotion, probably a robot or something. Like Terminator or something.

Or think about this one. I'm not being biased here. And don't discuss me if you don't want to be discussed. Also don't slander me if you don't want to be slandered.

[chatanga 1,058]

You need to understand that the Raagi Jatha are learned and the sangat are the first class students. Just like in the example i gave, Giani ji is learned and the sangat listening to his katha are first grade students....

You gone completely off point and have not understood the example given of Giani ji....

And speaking objectively the shabad brings out the true emotions in a person itself and in the kirtan jathas case there is no hinderance on the letting the true emotions of the shabad to be revealed...

Giani Thakur Singh's example is not comparable here and you know it. Giani Ji did katha in Viakaran arth, not in antreev arth. Both are different levels of katha but they are both still katha. Both are practised by kathavachaks everywhere as has been set from the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji., but the gurmat sangeet which follows the hukam of Guru Ji is raag kirtan, not any tune which sounds nice. There are no levels of kirtan. You either do it Guru Ji's way, or you dont, simple.

And let me know what survey you or Giani Ji did before commencing katha, to know that his sangat were only first grade students.

Speaking even more objectively, why did Guru Ji give us Dhur Ki Bani in Raag order, if the raag or emotion was of no or little consequesence. By saying that raag is not important or relatively unimportant, are you saying that Guru Ji wasted thier time in attaching raags to each shabad?

I would like to ask you, and i have a feeling i have asked you before, "did our Guru's give us any example that was only temporary, of until we needed it. Did they set any example that was only for a short-term? Or are their teachings eternal?