Kirtan Is More Important Than Katha

[AK-47]

If you listen to the katha of Guru Nanak Dev Ji from sooraj parkash (or read it alone if that makes you happier) you will find sakhi after sakhi where maharajah visits places and does updesh I.e teaches Sikhi. Sometimes maharajah does something and then explains why, other times maharajah uses a shabad and then explains it's use, other times sangat gather and just ask maharajah for teachings. So yes maharajah did give lectures to the sangat.

Guru Amar Das Ji set up 22 manji's ie places of learning and set gursikhs to go and teach gurmat. Again preaching was done both of gurmat and of gurbani and of guru sahibs greatness.

When Bhai Gurdas Ji was in Agra he sat there and did katha and taught people about gurbani, Sikh philosophy and of guru Ji. He didn't just sit there with a vaja.

Guru Har Krishan Sahib Ji blessed a poor dumb person with with a stick with the ability to do the katha of the Gita as this was seen to be an incredibly difficult thing to do. Again katha is seen as worthy albeit within a different dharam.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji I also understand did katha of the whole of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

So there are plenty of examples of katha in Sikh tradition. If they don't exist in certain parts of the panth, that is their own choice. Majority of the panth enjoys and learns from katha and understand it to be an integral part of Sikhi.

At different stages of your Sikhi path you will get anand from different things. Sometimes seva, sometimes more kirtan, sometimes reading bani, listening to bani, listening to katha, doing jooreh di seva etc. Aim is to join mind with vaheguru and do simram constantly whilst doing any of the above.

Whole argument is childish. It's like equivalent to asking which of your parents do you love more? love both, listen to both kirtan and katha. End of.

[VanHelsingh]

Talking of Sooraj Prakash does anyone have an English translation of this saakhi? Also, is it legit because I remember reading years ago on a website that the author of said saakhi was not be trusted.

Although I must admit I think that website was a bit strange because it was referring to Bachittar Natak being written by...well not Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This was many years ago, around 2005 I think.

[AK-47]

Oops sorry the other one was when the bhraman came to Guru Arjan Dev Ji I believe and asked if he could do katha, maharajah allowed him, but nobody listened. He got angry and complained and maharajah gave him teachings which detail the 14 qualities needed in a person doing katha and 14 needed in the listener. This is still taught today.

Other sakhi is to do with the Sikh in 6th guru jis times that would pull faces and swear at sangat during guru jis katha. Sangat complained but when this Sikh said remind me of the katha they couldn't n all they could remember was his actions. I.e mind wasn't focused on guru jis teachings but on his face.

There's loads!!

[AK-47]

Talking of Sooraj Prakash does anyone have an English translation of this saakhi? Also, is it legit because I remember reading years ago on a website that the author of said saakhi was not be trusted.

Although I must admit I think that website was a bit strange because it was referring to Bachittar Natak being written by...well not Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This was many years ago, around 2005 I think.

Kam from this site has been doing translations of the 'chapters' you can read them on his blog

http://sikhscriptures2english.blogspot.com/

[VanHelsingh]

Kam from this site has been doing translations of the 'chapters' you can read them on his blog

http://sikhscripture...h.blogspot.com/

Thanks brother. That's brilliant.

[S1ngh]

both are required..

but katha should be totally minimised to those who actually have some level of kamai or understanding... too many kathavachaks these days.. taken amrit like a week ago, then on stage doing katha with little understanding...

No need for that many katha vaachaks.. we are lucky to have a wealth of audio katha from the past from people who knew what they were talking about.

As for translations of gurbani.. this should be TOTALLY minimised... Maharaaj speaks to everyone in their own way, its a personal relationship between Maharaaj and his Sikh.

For example, "Humrai Dusht Sabhai Tum Ghao aap Hath Dai Moeh Bachavo"

Some people say its your external enemies, some people say its your internal enemies... Let the person know the basic translation.. and let the Guru Speak the exact translation to the individual themselves.

When one kathavaachak contradicts the other it just gets silly.... just do line by line basic translation..

^^^^ Totally agree.. well said..

Katha and kirtan are both as important, however as stated kirtan is of niroal gurbani whereas katha is interpretation of gurbani and also of ithaas.

^^^ So true

Point of my thread is not to diminishes the importance of katha. Both are aangs of our panth but however i would say that there is time and space where both needs to be performed. KIrtan, Katha and Dhadi are part of our dharam but all has its own effect and area to practice.

Katha performed by Taksal in its school is important part of program where a person is pursuing religious education. Katha is done to make us aware of our history; only if it is done correctly by gursikh kathavachaak.

I am not sure about your area gurdwara sahib but my area local sangat mostly prefer katha over kirtan during sunday diwans. Reason is because majority of sangat can't understand kirtan thus they prefer katha which is at their understanding level. When kirtan is going on in our gurdwara; you will see few numbers of ppl but when katha is going on, you will see hundreds of them. I am not saying that we shouldn't do katha at all but all i am saying is that give kirtan more importance than katha. Prime time of our gurdwaras schedule should be given to kirtan.

Our people solely rely on katha these days and they don't make effort to learn kirtan. Due to this huge demand, we now have another branch (kacchi bani) where a person attracts hundreds of thousands both in india and abroad. We should spread prachar of more kirtan stages and giving them more stage and prime time. Katha, Dhadi can follow them before or after but that should be done by credible person. More resources should be provided to educate ppl about gurbani (Saanthiya).

Thanks to both AKJ and Taksal; Without Taksal, today we would probably be seeing only nastak scientiologist missionary (ldh) kathavaachaaks. And without AKJ, we would probably be seeing huge decline of kirtan/samagams and "sikhi to the max" probably never released.

And my personal opionion on those people here who are attacking panthic religious figures and comparing em with doh takkay deh bandar like darshu, nang or kala afghana.. pls stay on topic.

[SinghWarrior]

At different stages of your Sikhi path you will get anand from different things. Sometimes seva, sometimes more kirtan, sometimes reading bani, listening to bani, listening to katha, doing jooreh di seva etc. Aim is to join mind with vaheguru and do simram constantly whilst doing any of the above.

Whole argument is childish. It's like equivalent to asking which of your parents do you love more? love both, listen to both kirtan and katha. End of.

Well said.

[chatanga]

Please clarify this statement in bold. You said "Guru Ji himself explained the arths of Gurbani to the Sikhs in "lecture" style format starting from Guru Nanak Dev Ji." giving no source, my reply to that was based on the assumption that this actually happened. Just because I am unsure whether what you stated about Guru Sahib is true or not, how does this mean I don't believe the Guru? Please do not make such emotive statments or rather total insults for no reason.

Gladly. The sources are our history, read our history and you will see from the tmes of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, where gave he gave discourse to sangat or paapis. In some places there was veechar, but in some there was Guru Ji talking and others listening.

10th Guru gave the sangat katha, and this was not in any veechar format, but as you say a lecture style, where 1 talks and others listen, the same seena-baseena tradition that exists today. You say that "perhaps" Guru did this. You dispute whether the Guru even did this, whereas it is a historical fact that he did. You don't have faith in the Guru giving us such exalted gian that no mere mortal could have started.

And as for param gat through katha, there were 46 students who recieved param gat at the moment GuruJi completed this monumental task.

[chatanga]

and my personal opinion on those people who run this forum who are attacking aspects of sikhi, and camparing them with others, is not to make stupid topics in the 1st place where you know it will or can polarise the forum members.

[Singhstah]

Gladly. The sources are our history, read our history and you will see from the tmes of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, where gave he gave discourse to sangat or paapis. In some places there was veechar, but in some there was Guru Ji talking and others listening.

10th Guru gave the sangat katha, and this was not in any veechar format, but as you say a lecture style, where 1 talks and others listen, the same seena-baseena tradition that exists today. You say that "perhaps" Guru did this. You dispute whether the Guru even did this, whereas it is a historical fact that he did. You don't have faith in the Guru giving us such exalted gian that no mere mortal could have started.

Quite simply, if Guru Sahib himself wrote somewhere, "I did katha", and then I said no I don't believe Guru Ji did, that would be not believing the guru, not a disbelief in what you or a historian says. Using ad hominem to try to make your arguments more effective is a silly thing to do. Especially when you didn't even name any source, let alone Guru Sahib himself.

And as for param gat through katha, there were 46 students who recieved param gat at the moment GuruJi completed this monumental task.

As per Gurbani- the Guru himself. param gat can only be obtained through Gurbani and Naam. Once again, I have nothing to say until a Gurbani tuk can be provided which mentions katha with the meaning of a lecture by an individual. I have only replied this time to refute your baseless accusation that I, "don't believe the Guru", just because I disagree with you. Very cheap shot. I too an am a fellow amritdhari regardless of views, so there is no need for such animosity (such an accusation against another sikh IS animosity)