Where And When Did Sanskrit Originate?

[Jonny101]

Yes, that point came to me just now. Of course Gurbani is on the level, but I wondered if Gurbani was referencing these legends in a mythological sense rather than historical sense? I was thinking about how advanced those civilizations were as mentioned in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, and I was thinking whether there's been any physical evidence of those civilizations (i.e. archaelogical findings)? I read somewhere ages ago that the destruction of the fabled city of Atlantis (which affected most of the world) somehow put paid to these amazingly Indian civilizations? Anyway, I reckon this talk is for another thread.

Did the Ramayana take place before humans (as in official recorded history) came to the Indus valley, i.e. pre-history?

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

Krishna received power from Thee and he threw down Kansa by catching his hair.

From the above Dasam Bani Tukhs in Chandi Di Vaar it says that the power of Raam and Krishan came from Vaheguru. Dasam Guru has mentioned this as fact not fiction.

As for official history that we read about in text books, that is a different story. I think truth is somewhere in between the official and unofficial. If we go by the western orientalist version of Sikh history then we get the McLeodian literature which in my opinion grossly misrepresents Sikh history and it quite frankly is a load of crap. Similarly it wouldn't be off the mark to say that orientalist version of Indian history is also probably misrepresentive.

[VanHelsingh]

Thanks Jonny101. Somethings for me to digest and go away and learn. BTW what's the full name of this McLeod fellow? I thought the translation (by the German scholar) of Sikh scriptures (before McAuliffe did his seva) was a complete hatchet job?

[Jonny101]

Thanks Jonny101. Somethings for me to digest and go away and learn. BTW what's the full name of this McLeod fellow? I thought the translation (by the German scholar) of Sikh scriptures (before McAuliffe did his seva) was a complete hatchet job?

Hew McLeod is his name. He passed away recently. The German fellow I think you are referring to is Ernest Trump. Sikh scholar Trilochan Singh Jee has completely ripped apart McLeod and Trump in his book "Ernest Trump & Hew McLeod as Scholars of Sikh History"

[VanHelsingh]

Oh thanks again Jonny Ji. Yes, you're right about the German scholar. Trump was widely discredited even at the time of publishing his work pre-21st century. There was rumours he was instructed to talk-down and discredit the Sikh faith on the instruction of the Indians.

[TigerStyleZ]

Paji, your Gurbani thuks are incomplete , please post all if you post.. There is no reffering that they really existed. This is just mythological, and sshould help us to understand not to waste our times on Krishna etc.. We should take our time to worship one and only formless god. No Guru, never claimed they existed.

[Jonny101]

Paji, your Gurbani thuks are incomplete , please post all if you post.. There is no reffering that they really existed. This is just mythological, and sshould help us to understand not to waste our times on Krishna etc.. We should take our time to worship one and only formless god. No Guru, never claimed they existed.

LOL what? where did I say waste your time on Krishan? If you are saying the Tukhs I mentioned are myth then you are calling Gurus a liar. If the Guru mentioned them then as a Sikh you need to accept and properly understand what they wrote. No where does the Guru say worship or focus on krishan. I dont know how you came to that conclusion. Hindus say Krishan or Raam is supreme god and all powerful. Guru Gobind Singh Jee is saying NO that is not true. He is saying when Krishan killed Kans it was only through the power that Vaheguru had given him that he was able to grab and kill Kans. It was only through the power that Vaheguru had given Raam that he was able to kill a powerful warrior like Ravan. If Vaheguru did not enable them, then Raam and Krishan could never have killed powerful warriors like Ravan and Kans. This tukh clearly shows the greatness of Vaheguru as being the supreme God not Krishan or Raam. Maybe you are confused with the English translation. Here is a humble attempt to translate it into Punjabi.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

(ਹੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ) ਤੇਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਰਾਮ ਨੇ ਬਲ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਰਾਵਣ ਨੂੰ ਤੀਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਕਾਯਾ

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

(ਹੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ) ਤੇਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਨੇ ਬਲ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਕੰਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੇਸੋਂ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਸੁੱਟ ਗਿਰਾਯਾ

ਇਸ ਤੁਖ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਡਾ ਜਾਂ ਓਹ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਵਡੇ? ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤੁਖਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਸਿਧੇ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹ ਨੇ ਕਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਰਾਮ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਆਪਣੀ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਨਹੀ ਸੀ, ਬਲਕਿ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਹਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਓਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਰਾਵਣ ਤੇ ਕੰਸ ਵਰਗੇ ਸ਼ਕਤੀਸ਼ਾਲੀ ਯੋਦੇਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਕਾਯਾ। ਇਹ ਕੋਈ ਮਿਥਿਹਾਸਿਕ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਨਹੀ, ਜੇ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਖੀ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਗੱਲ ਸੱਚੀ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਹੋ ਹੀ ਨਹੀ ਸਕਦਾ ਕਿ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਝੂਟ ਦਾ ਸਹਾਰਾ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਸੱਚ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਕਰੇ।

[Jonny101]

Oh thanks again Jonny Ji. Yes, you're right about the German scholar. Trump was widely discredited even at the time of publishing his work pre-21st century. There was rumours he was instructed to talk-down and discredit the Sikh faith on the instruction of the Indians.

Trump was the typical orientalist historian. He thought that the native population does not know much about their own history so Europeans like him need to show them what their history and religion is all about. At first it is said that he had enlisted the help of Sikh gianis. When he opened up the Guru Granth Sahib Jee and started to smoke a cigar which horrified the Sikh Gianis present who at once took the Guru Granth Sahib away from him and rushed out of the room. He then was given help on his work about Sikhism by his Hindu colleagues.

[TigerStyleZ]

I never said waste your time on Krishan I said- this Thuks mentioned in Dasam Granth are meant metphorical . You wrote that there is a fact that they existed, but there isn´t any.. This is just for ohter to understand....because of time of gurus there were many hindoos like you know., No I am not confused. I am simply saying that this is metaphorical nothing more nothing less...

[harman1990]

I never said waste your time on Krishan I said- this Thuks mentioned in Dasam Granth are meant metphorical . You wrote that there is a fact that they existed, but there isn´t any.. This is just for ohter to understand....because of time of gurus there were many hindoos like you know., No I am not confused. I am simply saying that this is metaphorical nothing more nothing less...

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

Rama received power from Thee and he killed Ravana with arrows.

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

Krishna received power from Thee and he threw down Kansa by catching his hair.

From the above Dasam Bani Tukhs in Chandi Di Vaar it says that the power of Raam and Krishan came from Vaheguru. Dasam Guru has mentioned this as fact not fiction.

I will beg for your forgiveness beforehand if i make any mistake by saying what i am about to say... but now that I think about it, Hindu's were largely populated at the times of Guru Gobind Singh.. it is a strong possibility that Guru Sahib did indeed meant it as a metaphorical way of showing the power of Waheguru. That Guru Sahib meant to say that just like Ram recieved his power from Waheguru, similarily we all receive blessings of Waheguru to go through the tasks in our lives.. that only with Waheguru's kirpa are we successful. That without Waheguru, such tasks cant be achieved. Now in regards to using Ram and Krishna in Dasam Bani, Guru Sahib obviously wanted to show Hindus that Ram and Krisna weren't God.. it was Waheguru who blessed them with the Kirpa...In the Zaffarnama. Guru Gobind Singh states:

ਮਨਮ ਕੁਸ਼ਤਨਮ ਕੋਹੀਯਾਂ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤ ॥

ਕਿ ਓ ਬੁਤ ਪਰਸਤੰਦੁ ਮਨ ਬੁਤ ਸ਼ਿਕਸਤ ॥95॥

I have killed hill Rajas (kings) who are bent on mischief. They are stone idol worshippers, I break idols and I worship one Lord. (Zaffarnama, Guru Gobind Singh Ji)

this is also a way of stating that everyone should worship Waheguru not Ram and Krishna who were blessed by God... if anyone is knowledgeble on such a topic, please shed some light

[Jonny101]

I never said waste your time on Krishan I said- this Thuks mentioned in Dasam Granth are meant metphorical . You wrote that there is a fact that they existed, but there isn´t any.. This is just for ohter to understand....because of time of gurus there were many hindoos like you know., No I am not confused. I am simply saying that this is metaphorical nothing more nothing less...

I don't think you understand the meaning of the term "metaphor". Please look up the term Metaphor in a dictionary. Metaphor is something that is used to represent something else. For example if I were to say "TigerStylesZ is a Lion" to describe your bravery then the term Lion in this is the metaphor.

But I fail to see where is the metaphor in the following Tukhs:

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਘਾਇਆ ॥

(ਹੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ) ਤੇਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਰਾਮ ਨੇ ਬਲ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਰਾਵਣ ਨੂੰ ਤੀਰਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਕਾਯਾ

ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸੁ ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥

(ਹੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ) ਤੇਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਹੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਨੇ ਬਲ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਕੰਸ ਨੂੰ ਕੇਸੋਂ ਫੜ ਕੇ ਸੁੱਟ ਗਿਰਾਯਾ

These are not examples of metaphors. This is clear cut factual statement by Guru Gobind Singh Jee saying that the power of Raam and Krishan to kill Ravan and Kans came not from themselves but from Vaheguru. Again, please look up the term Metaphor in a dictionary to understand what is a Metaphor and how it is used.