Getting To God

[Only five]

Guru Granth Sahib Ji includes bani of 15 Bhagats and they were from different religion. Sheikh Farid Ji, Bhagat Kabeer Ji were muslims. Bhagat Naamdev Ji, Bhagat Ramanand Ji were Hindu but it doesnt mean they havent met God. Bhagat naamdev ji was a hindu but he codemned the practises followed by brahmans. Many of Guru Ji followers were from other religion. Saai Mia Meer Ji, who laid the foundation of Harmandir Sahib was a muslim, Bhai Nand Lal Ji was Hindu, though he became Sikh afterwards and there are many other examples. It doesnt matter from which religion you are you can be one with God. But why we Sikhs are lucky because our Guru Ji left us with pure Brahmgyan in the roop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji rather than other religions' scriptures which mostly include karam kaands, but if someone being from those religions rise above these karamkaands and understand the concept of seeing one supreme lord in everyone its possible meet God. Bhagat Naamdev Ji saw God even in a dog. We all are sons of one supreme lord. As Guru ji says " Hindu Turk Koi Raafzi Imaam Saafi, Maanas Ki Jaat Sabhai Ekai Pehchanbo." " Jimin Jaman Ke Bikhai Samast Ek Jot Hai", "Aval Allah Noor Upaya, Kudrat Ke Sab Bande"," Koi Bolai Raam Raam Koi Khudaye". Guru Ji taught us equality but we still divide people on basis of caste, religion. Guru Ji said unless we see one lord in everyone, we are not going to be one with the lord.

Je Kuch Galat bol geya hova ta chhota veer samaj ke Bhul Chuk Layi Muaafi De Dena Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

provide the evidence that states the Bhagat are Muslim and Hindus. Gurbani directly tells us that Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj says he is not a Muslim. Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj also says it and provides the evidence that Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj also said he is not a Muslim.

People need to do more research and contemplate over Gurbani before labeling great souls as Hindu and Muslim. Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj came from a Hindu family, does that make him a Hindu? Do your research!!!!

[swalakh1]

All Bhagats are sikhs of Guru Nanak. Guru Granth sahib does not contain bani from muslims or hindus. Guru ji actually says that Hindus are completely blind and muslims are blind in one eye. (Meaning that they are unable to see the truth)

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍‍ਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥

here is katha done on this this habad by sant singh maskeen

Bhagat Namdev ji himself says that he is not a Hindu in this shabad

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥

ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਨ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥4॥3॥7॥

[VanHelsingh]

@ UKLondonSikh - I wouldn't say the Abrahamic religions are false by any stretch of the imagination. There are elements of the truth in them all, but frustratingly there's some concepts which overshadow the good. If anything the biggest accusation you could throw at the Abrahamic faiths (or the modern-day proponents of these faiths) is how they've lead to the rise of atheism or non-belief in the modrn world, which then reflects on other faiths as certain people begin to outright reject the existence of a higher power based on what these Abrahamic faiths espouse as their version of events.

[United]

Following on from what Only Five has said, I do not know if the concept of Satguru was mentioned in any other religious scriptures before being revealed to us by our Guru Sahibaan and Bhagat Sahibaans. But I would imagine that in a land in which there are many self-proclaimed Gurus, religious guides, preachers/clerics even in the present day, the concept of a Guru was surely prevalent during the time of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. It can be argued that Moses, Jesus, Hazrat Muhammad Sahib and many other religious teachers and prophets can also be considered as Gurus (to their respective followers, not according to Gurmat) because according to their followers, they showed the path of truth. At a time when the concept of a Guru was widely known and throughout history there have been so many prophets, religious guides, Peers etc., what is the purpose of Guru Sahib informing us of something called the Satguru, the True Guru?

pauVI ] Pauree: ndir krih jy AwpxI qw ndrI siqguru pwieAw ] If the Merciful Lord shows His Mercy, then the True Guru is found. eyhu jIau bhuqy jnm BrMimAw qw siqguir sbdu suxwieAw ] This soul wandered through countless incarnations, until the True Guru instructed it in the Word of the Shabad. siqgur jyvfu dwqw ko nhI siB suixAhu lok sbwieAw ] There is no giver as great as the True Guru; hear this, all you people. siqguir imilAY scu pwieAw ijn@I ivchu Awpu gvwieAw ] Meeting the True Guru, the True Lord is found; He removes self-conceit from within, ijin sco scu buJwieAw ]4] and instructs us in the Truth of Truths. ||4||

Clearly Satguru Ji in His Bani is telling us that there is no one like Him,' ijin sco scu buJwieAw ]4]', who gave us the complete truth. This implies that before Satguru Ji this was not known. If one reads Sri Anand Sahib, Guru Sahib is telling clearly tells us that the highest level of spirituality cannot be attained without coming to the charan of Guru Sahib.

Kaljugi you have asked very interesting questions. Attempts to answer these could easily run into volumes and perhaps we will never truly even be able to answer these questions. It is difficult to do so without running into the risk of getting into a debate of 'my religion is greater than your religion'. Essentially, it is a debate about why they follow their religion and why we follow ours. Followers of different religions usually view things in through different paradigms and religions can create such a mindset that it is difficult to think beyond those levels of thinking. This is why it is usually so difficult for followers of Abrahamic faiths to understand concepts like Nirgun-Sargun saroop, becoming one with God and transmigration of the soul.

However, many people across the globe are looking for a sense of stability, are on a quest for finding the truth and some guidance in their lives. I believe that the fact that Abrahamic religions claim a monopoly on the truth, provides complete guidance on almost every aspect of life gives people a certain level of peace. Islamic scholars have put forth the argument that the Quran was revealed to Hazrat Muhammad Sahib who was illiterate, in beautiful Arabic poetry, so many prophecies and gave the same message as the Biblical lineage of Prophets as proof of why Islam is the complete truth. Furthermore, there are so called Ayaats (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons) in the Quran that Muslims use to test what other religions say and inform people of the correct way to worship God. There are many such arguments for why Muslims believe what they believe. Viewing this from the perspective of a Muslim, it can be seen why they are convinced that their religion is the truth and why they feel they have a duty to propagate this to the world.

Sikhs are also similar in this respect. We too look at the message of Gurbani which we regard as the complete truth. We look at the accomplishments of our great Guru Sahibaans and also what He enabled his Sikhs to do. Guru Sahib taught us that we do not have to wait until we die to experience God, this can be accomplished while someone is alive. Coming back to the theme of this thread, the fact that Jap Ji Sahib tells us that there are different Khands, gives the message that there are different levels to experiencing the Divine. Bhai Raghbir Singh Ji 'Bir' writes in Bandaginama that everything in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, can be seen for oneself. We look at the jeevan of great Mahapurakhs who have demonstrated to us the highest level of Sikhi. We too would find it difficult to believe what other religions believe because it is difficult for us to escape viewing things through the lense of Sikhi.

[VanHelsingh]

Apart from those who willingly convert to the faith of their choosing, is it all about being a loyal adherent of the religion and associated culture one is born into which decides how you view your own and other faiths (in terms of inherent bias)? Certainly seems so.

[N30S1NGH]

I be brief as this topic has been discussed until cows got home-check past archives of sikhsangat...take whatever you will. It's better to define the terms otherwise one may keep playing with semantics:

So Who is Satguru listed in Gurbani? As, Satguru can only give mukhti (rightly so).

For a Sikh ( sikh defined ,according to Sri Akaal Takth Maryada)

True Guru is Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar in all tri folds:

1. Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar in Nirgun Form.

2. Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar in Shabad Guru Form i.e- gyan of shabad form.

3. Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar in Sargun saroop (Guru Maharaj divine saroop in any form including with seli topi , Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji physical saroop).

For bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji whose writing are included in Gurbani - (which followed introvert sikhi or mysticism- didn't belong to sharia layer of any dharam including sikh as they came before sargun saroop of satguru nanak and laid foundation of sikh dharam officially)

True Guru (Satguru)

1. Vahiguroo Ji Nirgun Form (Sure, We can call it - Satguru Nanak Dev Nirankar, as long people don't start playing with semantics now to claim supremacy)

2. Bhagat's teacher/murshid and their ishatdev - according vaishanav traditions/sufi mystic tradtions etc, just like we have sargun saroop of baba nanak and sri guru granth sahib ji

They got Gurmantar from their murshid which they did abhyaas and went through all different types of mukhti in stages while they were alive, and at the end while alive- got kaival mukhti by satguru grace (Vahiguroo ji in nirgun form).

Traditonal Gurmat don't beleive in bhagats got gurmat naam (amazing branding name btw you guys should be in marketing) by sargun saroop of satguru nanak retroacively and gave them mukhti as bhagats in sri guru granth sahib ji receiving "gurmat naam" and mukhti via sargun saroop of satguru nanak, is no where to found in any of old works of nirmale, taksal upsamaprda, sevapanthi or rehitnamas literature. This branding/marketting of gurmat naam came recently with protestant thought in Sikhi to shove sikhi in a tunnel. But Maharaj parkash cannot be shoved in a tunnel.

All bhagats may have have met sri guru nanak dev nirankar and also may have came back in form of panj pyares or among other bhramgyani mahapursh (although, there is difference of opnion among historians on this) but let just say - they came and met sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar but that does not mean, they came back to get "mukhti" as its shown that they came back to mukhti to claim superamacy of protestant sikhi which protestant sikhs follow- its huge insult to bhagats (found in sri guru granth sahib ji) devotion and dedication towards Vahiguroo -

-devotion shown in sargun bhagti

-devotion shown via naam simran of whatever naam they got from their teachers and did naam abhyas- surat shabad yog

-devotion shown in nirgun bhagti and as result got kaival mukhti.

It is also huge insult to "kabirpanthis", "baba farid followers", "ravidassia panthis" , "bhagat namdev followers" and other bhagats (followers). As it arrogantly shows, that all their- bhagats (be it kabir, farid, ravidas, bhagat namdev) mystic devotion (bhagti, naam simran, gyan) towards One Vahiguroo was not successful until sri guru nanak dev nirankar met them in sargun saroop and gave them "gurmat" naam ( again amazing brand name ) and mukhti.

Sorry I didn't gave any examples from gurbani as there is already full fledge debate/discussion with gurbani examples, on satguru label in sri guru granth sahib ji- Bijla Singh and I had in the past..take whatever you will!!!

Off course, without receiving amrit and naam for a Sikh, there is no mukhti for Sikh. With being said,I find it absoultely insulting and outrageous for anyone to claim that without "Gurmat" (to claim superamcy) naam- Vahiguroo mantar there is no mukhti for non sikh when you see contary in gurbani all bhagats did jaap of whatever mantar they got from their teacher and got mukhti.

But this protestant thought of branding of their "Naam", "naam dridh", offering -access to sachkhand like it was some sachkhand express train- in return for non sikh to convert into Sikh "ism" is not that surprising as, protestant mindset discriminate within gurbani against other guru ghars mantars- such as ongkar- bij mantar, satnaam- paraporbla mantar,mala mantra, maha mantar- ik ongkar and call those who did jaap of them (with sharda and prem) as kachai pilae, dhillaie, manmatiya,bhraminvad, devoid of gurmat etc etc.

So yeah, its not that black and white guys, protestant thought is quite black and white- they want to make sikhi look like another typical abhramic faith (same old crap pandits and mullahs are debating my salvation is higher than yours blah blah now you have protestant sikhs doing the same) maharaj clearly state- best dharam is which meditates on naam of vahiguroo in sukhmani sahib and that gave peace to fanatic pandits and mullahs of that time, but now our protestant sikhs still not satisfied or in peace, they try to shove sikhi into a tunnel but maharaj parkash cannot be shoved in the tunnel in your "ism"...!!!.

[SunSingh]

Kalyugi Veer,

In general we should be careful being "authoritarian" on other dharam theology without looking and studying at other dharams in depth. I think most of us look at other dharam outer layer and start jumping the gun. It's kinda like same - person from other dharam looks at our sikh dharam via lense of sikh missionary who believes - main aim for sikh is to good human being and do seva (as they don't beleive in naam simran) nor they beleive in heaven/hell/reincarnation and sachkhand and they think thats sikh beleif. Off course, mystic traditions of all religions are not very popular because of 80% of so called dharamis/religious people are nothing but bunch of goons have hijacked their own dharam for their own ideological war fare, political gains, you know herding and controlling like minded sheep mentality so they can have power. Religion is like commodity for these guys..!!.

We are quite lucky all though we have maryada- rules as well- Sikhi start itself or present itself as a mystic tradition than your typical "ism" Victorian version of religion (regardless of bhausari attempts) as i said earlier-

Out of all mystic traditions, clearly gurmat is distinct and an short cut way to get to sachkhand..!!

With that being said, one could still hold an right position, consistent with all samparda's and saint orders in Sikhism that -sackhand is not exclusive to sikhs!!

However, to reach God one needs a pooran Guru, according to Sant Gurbachan Singh ji. Where will these people find a pooran Guru in kaljug? Who has the merit to find a pooran Guru? The various prophets such as issa ji, mussa ji, buddha ji, they were not pooran. Guru Granth Sahib ji is pooran so through kirpa of Amrit those who do not have the merits to meet someone like Bhagat Kabir ji can still make progress towards mukti after taking Amrit.

[N30S1NGH]

Guru Granth Sahib ji is pooran so through kirpa of Amrit those who do not have the merits to meet someone like Bhagat Kabir ji can still make progress towards mukti after taking Amrit.

I agree veer that those who do not have merits to meet bhramgyani like bhagat kabir ji can still progress towards mukhti after through kirpa of amrit and taking amrit.

In baba karam singh ji hotimardan - pachmi noor book, baba karam singh ji hotimardan wale met sufi fakirs who were poran bhramgyanis and were sathi of baba karam singh ji maharaj in their previous life there are examples- Sant Hari Singh Ji Randhawale shares an story- of hindu sadhu fully in bedah mukht avastha in haridvar where there are lines of people waiting for their darshan, his chelas were feeding them to just keep them alive... I agree It's rare examples, but possible to find pooran bhramgyanis examples.. i won't say poran guru's because that title rightly so only reserve for dhan dhan sri guru granth sahib ji, lets leave it as poran bhramgyani much more appropriate.

At bhramgyan, its all one advait- thats kaival mukhti. I guess the real question is, after kaival mukhti (bhramgyan) and after bhramgyani releasing its body, is there any difference between bhramgyani and satguru? Depends on which mahapursh you ask? Both meta reality on sachkhand are correct and fully parvan in Gurmat.

- yes there is difference those who want to do more seva, more anand and more naam- they stay in sachkhand baikhunt with their individualistic consciousness connected with supreme consciousness fully and do naam jaap or sadh sangat, sangat with maharaj darbar in sachkhand or do seva in this earth gupt form or came back in this earth physically in agupt form

- And for those individuals who have full desire to merge in Nirankar, after bhramgyan and after leaving their body they merge with - Satguru Nanak Dev Ji which looses their individuality after merging with satguru and its all one and only - Satguru Nanak Dev Ji Nirankar!!!

Listen to sant hari singh ji randhwale on prophecy on khalistan on sachkhand, he explains it.

[Only five]

The question was not answered. As no list was given of who is the True Guru. Give us the teachers names (who came in Sargun Saroop) of the Bhagats where they receieved mukti?

Name one True Guru in Sargun Saroop that can give mukti other than Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj (not naming the Brahmgyanis who recieved mukti through Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj). Just one forget about the list, just name one!!!

[UKLondonSikh]

KullyKhalsa = harvindersingh makes a great post above about teh fact bhagats included in bani have been of different religions.

UK = Paji he was very wrong about Kabir Ji and I think it was an unwitting mistake by the brother to label all of our Bhagats as Hindu when in fact most of their words and lives were lived in complete repudiation of classical Hindu thought. Similarly, there are arguments that Sufi's are not Muslims as pertaining to the case of Sheikh Farid Ji since certain non-Muslim Sufi's reject slavery and paedophilia as wrong - unlike Sunni Islam which condones the same.

KullyKhalsa = also think the post above is worth delving into regarding each persons set of circumstances...i.e the chance of a third world poor african gettin to sachkand when they have never even heard of sikhi???

UK = Khalsa Ji there are estimated to be as many child orphans in Africa as there are Sikhs in the World. Obviously 99.99% of the African child orphans are not Sikh. From that alone, it is clear according to the tenets of Sikhi that there will be more African souls in Sachkhand from today's generation of souls than from today's generation of non-Amritdhari Sikhs. Not only that there will even be a higher percentage of African souls and gareeb so-called (society-labelled) "Hindu" souls in Sachkhand in comparison to non-Amritdhari Sikhs. Obviously in Sachkhand "bas Tuhi Tu" so no races or religions present there as such. A Giani explained with a similar example to the following ... imagine that me, another Punjabi mundah and a gareeb Afreekan kid sit an exam in Punjabi and we all score 70% ... then clearly the Afreekan kid deserves more credit than both of us Punjabi's (for his supposedly equal score) ... likewise in real life those that suffer the most in this duniya ... come closest to ParmAathma as a result of that after we leave our physical shell. Similarly, let's say two Sikhs live an equally religious life .... One lost one of his parents to cancer at a young age, whilst the other had the blessing of two parents to a ripe old age ... but in all other aspects they are identically equal ... it's clear who has done or coped with "more" (given the harder "examination test of life" faced) despite both being equally religious and honest. We all on this forum were born to Sikh parents, so were very lucky to be exposed to the Truth, however those that come to Sikhi of their own volition really deserve much more credit than us if their jeevan is equally as truthful. This is a real deep subject but one's circumstances and life's hurdles are critical in determining who gets closer to mukhti and ParmAathma. Coming back to percentages, I do believe that a higher percentage of Amritdhari's reach Union with ParmAathma (theoretically 100% of Amritdhari's should do but obviously some are closet Patits like Badal) than the small Amritdhari percentage of the population of this Planet would suggest. Stuff about people who go through so much suffering then being blessed with coming back as Sikhs in a next life is total and utter hogwash. It's totally obvious according to the tenets of Sikhi that the tens of millions of victims of the Transatlantic Slave Trade, Islamic Slave Trade, the Jewish Holocaust, the tens of millions of victims of the Cold War became mukht as a result of their suffering in spite of them NOT being Sikh.

Kaljugi = I wouldn't say the Abrahamic religions are false by any stretch of the imagination. There are elements of the truth in them all, but frustratingly there's some concepts which overshadow the good.

UK = Agreed Paji, i was perhaps a bit too strong in my condemnation of them. As you rightly say, there are elements of truth in every single faith. I myself know Christians and Muslims who are far better than myself. But my opinion about certain elements of those two faiths is pretty unrepentant and we as Sikhs need to sometimes strategically ditch the "all dharms are equal" mantra.

Kaljugi = If anything the biggest accusation you could throw at the Abrahamic faiths (or the modern-day proponents of these faiths) is how they've lead to the rise of atheism or non-belief in the modrn world, which then reflects on other faiths as certain people begin to outright reject the existence of a higher power based on what these Abrahamic faiths espouse as their version of events.

UK = Yep Paji you could well be right on that. But when the followers of these faiths know full well that Jesus didn't have no virgin birth (why would God interfere in wordly matters like that ... but not save the victims of Pol Pot as one example) ... and they know full well that Slavery is immoral ... yet Muhammad and Abraham were active slaveowers and slave-traders ... and they know full well that mukhti isn't determined by one's stated religion ... but by the quality alone of the deeds a human being performs (and of course true + pure Amritdhari jeevan overflowing with pyaar as Guru Sahib stated should ensure the said good actions are performed) ... then that's what annoys me as to why the Abrahamic faiths have 150 times more influence than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj on this Planet ... thereby preventing a world of Sarbat da Bhala as envisioned by our Guru Sahib. It shouldn't be about numbers but we need to get real and widen out the definition of Sikh rather than restricting it (and thereby accept more non-Punjabi sehajdhari's into the fold globally) if we are truly committed to Sarbat da Bhala. I truly believe that the gareeb of Africa and the 800 million gareeb in India are natural born Sikhs by default because if they don't believe what we do (as they haven't been exposed to the Truth yet) their daily suffering is getting them closer to ParmAathma than most of the non-Amritdhari Sikhs in the Diaspora living a comparably comfortable life ... and therefore by extension those so-called non-Sikhs are clearly natural "Sikhs" in that respect.