Scottish independence movement

[West London Singh]

I find our own Khalistanis myopic myself - they don't seem to be able to grasp the idea (even after decades) that people generally don't really care excessively about religious sentiments, but rather issues of prosperity, prospects and lifestyle. That goes double for Panjabis who seem obsessed with this.

So all these ideas about 'international trends' and gaining support abroad are ridiculous as the truth is that the people who need convincing the most - Panjabis - of all backgrounds in India - are not given much thought at all.

No offence but you have little understanding of how these movements work. 'Religion' per se, plays only a very very small part in it. I, myself, am far more motivated by Punjabi nationalist pride and indeed I would estimate that 90% of the most passionate Khalistanis I know are moneh who hardly ever go to the Gurdwara but are passionate about being free from the rule of what they regard as foreigners (India). As 1984 and the recent Rajoana protests showed, when push comes to shove the Punjabis by nature get driven by Punjabi pride. In normal circumstances, their only concerns are vehicles, homes and living etc, but once the juggernaut comes a rolling they always climb aboard. Again, the Scottish analogy is relevant. On normal days, the polls show that only about 20% of Scots want independence as they're more interested in day to day issues. However, whenever the nationalists go on a grass roots drive or a nationalist type movie comes out that figure doubles to over 40%. The Scots are no different to Sikhs and the Sikhs are no different to any other group in the world that has ever achieved independence. I don't think any of us are expecting you to get on the juggernaut Dal Singh, as your negativity towards Punjab independence is blatantly clear. What I suggest you do though is research how Welsh nationalists have launched arson attacks on other Welshmen who don't support independence or even devolution or how the Catalonians have treated other Catalonians who speak Spanish to their children in Catalonia, or, for example, how Basque nationalists have treated other Basques that have not supported independence from Spain. Like I said, all humans are the same. All nationalist groups are the same. Sikhs are no better and no worse than any other. However, Dal Singh, you seem to have a depressing habit of always seeing the glass as half empty when it comes to evaluating the common Sikh in Punjab.

[hsisingh]

43% of Scots want the Scottish Parliament to make all decisions even before the SNP have started their campagn. Considering The Tories and Labour win elections in the Uk with a vote of around 40% its pretty good start. There are plenty of landlocked countries that are doing well in world, so not sure why you are so pessimistic. Punjab was independent before and the British described it as one of the most powerful counties in Asia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-19622617

You can't win a referendum unless you have at least 50% plus 1 vote of all votes cast, so 43% is not enough.

The Scottish people will not back independence. The Scottish government already controls health, education, legal system, social services, transport...what they can't do is raise their own taxes and they don't control defence and foreign affairs.

An independent Punjab would be the same size as Nepal in terms of population and (like Nepal) would be landlocked. Which manufacturing company is going to set up in the Punjab to provide jobs to the young people? How will the state deal with defence, access to ports.

It is just nonsense.....anyone who spends any time looking into the real consequences of an independent Punjab would dismiss the idea..

[West London Singh]

Lets not forget one key player in this game, especially if it involves India. Yes, the United States of America. Now remember how Pakistan has (pretty much) gone into the other camp, that being the Chinese, and on top of that the loss of US trust towards Pakistan thanks to them finding and thereby killing Osama on Pakistani soil. This is jackpot for India in terms of stronger US support, inspite of whatever economic (and now even climatic) chaos the US itself might be going through. Furthermore, India having the image of "the world's largest democracy" is an additional bonus for them in the eyes of US. So one thing is for sure, as long as the US doesn't see a personal interest in the Sikh struggle, it will be an uphill task to gather their much needed support. I don't need to tell anyone how world politics works.

But you need to remind yourself. Out of a thousand, here's just a couple of examples of how world politics sometimes work :

• International human rights awareness of the situation in India reaches such a level that US politicians realise that they will lose votes unless they criticise India
  
• Sikhs become so politicaly active in both Washington and London that think tanks advance the notion that the only way to prevent a world nuclear catastrophe that is likely with 2 nuclear powers at constant loggerheads with each other (India and Pakistan) continously having border disputes, is to have a neutral buffer state between them (Punjab)
  

Ask anyone 5 years ago if there would be a brand new north Sudan nation and they would say impossible. Ask anyone 5 years ago if Belgium would break into 2 separate nations and they would say impossible. Ask them 1 year ago and they'd say it was very likely. Like I said, the winds of change. Only come once every 30 years or so. Each time that wind comes around a dozen new countries come into being around the world. Once the wind comes it is unstoppable and does not stop for any traditional reason. Once the wind comes the normal rules of politics mean nothing. What is true of the world today is not necessarily true tomorrow. We simply gotta ensure we're ready for it.

[West London Singh]

You can't win a referendum unless you have at least 50% plus 1 vote of all votes cast, so 43% is not enough.

The Scottish people will not back independence. The Scottish government already controls health, education, legal system, social services, transport...what they can't do is raise their own taxes and they don't control defence and foreign affairs.

An independent Punjab would be the same size as Nepal in terms of population and (like Nepal) would be landlocked. Which manufacturing company is going to set up in the Punjab to provide jobs to the young people? How will the state deal with defence, access to ports.

It is just nonsense.....anyone who spends any time looking into the real consequences of an independent Punjab would dismiss the idea..

You seem to have a very childlike knowledge of the situation hsisingh. The referendum is 2 years away. The support for independence is largest amongst the young. Alex Salmon has rather cleverly negotiated that 16 year olds will be allowed to vote. I was in Edinburgh not long ago and it was quite clear that there is something difference in the air from the last time I visited. You can actually feel the momentum growing there.

As for your other points, before you write to the United Nations and ask them to destroy the 2 dozen or so other landlocked countries in the world around the same size as Punjab, you might need to stop thinking of Bombay and Calcutta and think more along the lines of Karachi, Iran, Turkey etc and understand that Punjab has more than just the one (Indian) option when it comes to trade routes and international relations.

[DailyMail]

This is a fantastic topic.

I have closely followed the independence movement north of Hadrian's Wall as well as the charismatic flair of Alex Salmond for quite sometime. He is by far, the most intelligent politican on these Isle's and he has managed to put all three major British political parties in Westminster on the backfoot. Even when one analyses the recent decision of deciding how to construct the referendum question, Salmond managed to successfully negotiate the vote to 16-17 yr olds - the most pro-independence section of the population.

The Scots have many similarities with the Sikhs, with military service and seperate Scots regiments to note. Throughout the Empire, it was the Scots who were the most adventerous and it were Scottish regiments that showed the most valour. Similarly with Sikhs. Within India, it is the Sikh regiment and Sikh Light Infantry which are the most decorated with military honours and us Sikhs are by far the most travelled of any indian group.

The Scots have a very able, intelligent and "canny" leader. His wit, charisma and charm offensive is enough to thwart even the Paxman's and Humphrey's of the world. Can you imagine the Sikh-equivalent? In 28 years, no so-called Sikh leader has been able to coherantly explain to an editor of a quality broadsheet British newspaper of the notion of 'Sikh nationhood', the reasons for Khalistan, the Sikh identity etc. Why? Because most of them have poor english skills. Even some of the placards on 1984 rally look as if they were put together by a 6 year old at infant school. Nevermind facing an interrogation by Paxman..

Which brings me to the rally/protest march. It's been useless. The Scots have managed to the get the entire world talking of Scottish independence without any such rallies. Political wit, charisma, strong legal and historical framework coupled with the ability to captivate the imagination of most Sikhs is what is required. Instead, what we have is about 1.5 jathebandis supportive of Khalistan, and the rest are monay and no one takes them seriously. Most Sikhs are alientated and believe this isn't for them. We don't have an Alex Salmond.....

[dalsingh101]

@WLS post #11 ^^

I hear your criticisms, but remember you are talking to someone who supported the notion of K'stan for a LONG TIME. I've seen the movement in the diaspora up close. Whatever my flaws, I'm not unreflective, or severely lacking in cognitive abilities, so yes, I do think my opinions have a claim to be valid and pertinent. What in your eyes may appear to be a 'depressing habit of always seeing the glass as half full' can be more readily explained as being 'realistic' in the face of direct observation and experience. Without trying to sound offensive, I think your own views could very easily be classed as naive and simplistic - but keep in mind that I deliver this criticism knowing full well that I TOO thought along similar lines to you for a long while.

And I'm not negative towards Panjabi independence at all, I just see it very different to you. I don't equate being Panjabi to being Sikh like you appear to do. I believe other nonSikh or even nonreligious Panjabis on our side of the border are entitled to a voice and respect as much as anyone else in these matters. The model for a free Panjab can't be one where Sikhs run rampant over nonSikhs. Plus you do have a persistent habit of straight playing down our own negatives whilst you criticise other communities, which is weak. We are NOT a strong cohesive community - the reasons for this are mainly our own feelings of jealousy and envy towards our own people over wealth, caste etc. etc. - in a word haumai. We aren't going to pull ANYTHING, united and big off until we squarely face and deal with these ugly internal issues conclusively - and I'd say people like yourself are a big obstacle to achieving this.

I don't agree that all nationalistic movements are the same like you are suggesting - each one has overlap for sure, but each is also unique in its own way - especially one like ours which straddles a complex array of factors including the socio, religious, complicated notions of race/caste and economic factors. We can even add international factors like brother Mehtab mentioned to this now, and probably a bunch of other things I haven't thought of on the top of head right now. To me the way you try and reduce the above into simple binary illustrates exactly what i'm trying to say about run of the mill K'stanis - who frankly seem to be way out of their depth.

Try reading up Che Guevera's stuff and Jagjit Singh's 'Sikh revolution' to get a better grasp perhaps?

Anyway, I'm not the only one who feels this way, even independent sympathetic observers have aired similar views:

Take the time to read this article I posted a while ago as an example.

Look at her criticisms - it seems like apnay haven't learned any lessons at all. So maybe I have good reason for not making an overly enthusiastic song and dance about what you perceive to be 'the common Sikh in Panjab'? I know we are strong in many areas - I'm also real enough to be able to face up to the fact that we are seriously lame in certain other areas. That is sat.

[hsisingh]

You seem to have a very childlike knowledge of the situation hsisingh. The referendum is 2 years away. The support for independence is largest amongst the young. Alex Salmon has rather cleverly negotiated that 16 year olds will be allowed to vote. I was in Edinburgh not long ago and it was quite clear that there is something difference in the air from the last time I visited. You can actually feel the momentum growing there.

As for your other points, before you write to the United Nations and ask them to destroy the 2 dozen or so other landlocked countries in the world around the same size as Punjab, you might need to stop thinking of Bombay and Calcutta and think more along the lines of Karachi, Iran, Turkey etc and understand that Punjab has more than just the one (Indian) option when it comes to trade routes and international relations.

I'd like to dispute your assertion that I have 'a very childlike knowledge of the situation.' I am actually quite well informed.

Whether Alex Salmond's need to reduce the voting age to 16 is a clever move, will only be proven once he has won the referendum - which he will not.

An independent Scotland won't even have its own currency and will rely on the British Pound - and so the London-based bank of England will set interest rates in Scotland but not be answerable to the Scottish government - what kind of independence is that??

So let me see, an independent Punjab's trade routes will rely on Pakistan to the west and India to the east. So when there is a border dispute (which there will inevitable be) with either of these two countries, we'll see those routes disrupted or cut off.

let me just put another few questions to you:

1) What will the independent Punjab's energy policy be? it has no energy resources of its own except one dam and a lot of cow dung

2) What will the independent Punjab's currency be? a Punjabi rupee?? a really powerful currency!!

[lsingh]

But you need to remind yourself. Out of a thousand, here's just a couple of examples of how world politics sometimes work :

• International human rights awareness of the situation in India reaches such a level that US politicians realise that they will lose votes unless they criticise India
  
• Sikhs become so politicaly active in both Washington and London that think tanks advance the notion that the only way to prevent a world nuclear catastrophe that is likely with 2 nuclear powers at constant loggerheads with each other (India and Pakistan) continously having border disputes, is to have a neutral buffer state between them (Punjab)
  

Ask anyone 5 years ago if there would be a brand new north Sudan nation and they would say impossible. Ask anyone 5 years ago if Belgium would break into 2 separate nations and they would say impossible. Ask them 1 year ago and they'd say it was very likely. Like I said, the winds of change. Only come once every 30 years or so. Each time that wind comes around a dozen new countries come into being around the world. Once the wind comes it is unstoppable and does not stop for any traditional reason. Once the wind comes the normal rules of politics mean nothing. What is true of the world today is not necessarily true tomorrow. We simply gotta ensure we're ready for it.

Add to this all the Arab Governments that have been overthrown in the past year or so, many of them had large armies.

What has changed since the 1980's is that most Indians are sick to death of their own Government with their corruption and misrule and they want change. It is more difficult for the Indian Governments to target minorities to win elections anymore. Many of the Indian states want control over their futures and the South Indians are deeply suspicious of the Hindi speaking North Indians.

[Singh559]

Beautiful posts!

[Mehtab Singh]

Yeah I agree. Please guys, lets disagree without getting personal. Humble request! This stuff might just get us somewhere.