Bedbi of SGGS in UK by Sikhs

[West London Singh]

On a side note, unlike Canada, the USA isn't as homogenous as WLS appears to project. The entire east coast is saturated with khatri Sikhs almost void of jatts. The west coast however, is somewhat different, as we all know!

Homogeneous in terms of neighbourhood sangats Daily Mail. As the recent Wisconsin Gurdwara shooting revealed, individual isolated sangats in middle America seem to be mostly made up of Khatri business families etc. On the rare occassion that the north American continent does have a situation like the UK whereby lots of different Sikh groupings in large numbers living together in particular areas of high population, such as the Queens borough of New York, we find that the situation in the UK naturally manifests there also. In that particular New York example you have a clear Lubana Sikh majority with significant populations of jatts and others. As such a natural power struggle ensues. All I'm saying is that particular situation is replicated in every town and city across the UK and so the person that described the UK as 'fractured' along caste lines needs to have a greater appreciation of demographics and how it and environment shape nature.

On the subject of Dhundha I tend to agree with you. My point was that Sikhchic is wrong to simplyfy it to the level that one side is 100% right and the other 100% wrong.

[luckysingh99]

_{WLS is right in a sense. There are definetly more punjabi jatts in closer populations whereas the UK is more diverse.}

_{The west coast does have more desi jatts than the east coast.}

_{There are also many patterns throughout the mid-americas.}

_{I don't think that anywhere over here is as diverse and varied in sikhs as you get in the UK. Very far from it.}

[Guest Babbar]

Whatever caste or where ever they are from it doesnt matter no unity no future ....

[VanHelsingh]

On the subject of Dhunda I'd be more inclined to be receptive to his views if he didn't strike Gurbani with a stick. If his supporters desire tolerance and open dialogue then it must work both ways. If he feels so strongly about certain issues then he'd get a hell of a lot more support (and dare I say he'd win over a lot of "floating voters", lol) if he behaved in a manner befitting someone who desires nothing but good for the future of the faith.

The whys and wherefores are a work in progress for me, but you can gauge what kind of character a man possesses by the company he keeps, and if any of those "alternative preachers" are any indication I'm just not feeling it with Dhunda Singh.

That isn't giving the so-called "Car-Park Kharkhoos" a clean slate btw. They need to behave themselves as well.

P.S. Mods, can you change my username to "Car-Park Kharkhoo"? Sounds awesome. Let it be known that the phrase "Car-Park Kharkhoo" was coined by myself on Sunday 25th Nov 2012 at 9.20am GMT. If it ever begins to be used on a wider basis then it must be clear I originated this phrase. It's mine... my own... my precious. :giggle:

[GPS]

WARNING: Comments on Sikh Chic are only allowed if they support the original article, others are not approved or edited so much to make them meaningless. Wonder if Sikhs in Canada could advise if libel laws can be used against what is being written/potsed as there is a moderation team for the web site who in effect take responsibility for what is posted.

I wish if we could do this against these heretics. Can anyone from Canada advise.

[GPS]

WLS I appreciate your post, but don't appreciate your tone.

I didn't say that I take the article for face value, which is precisely why I brought it to the forum, to try to see what is going on. If there are differing accounts of whats going on, could you point me to an article or forum where the issue is better discussed? I should be no more inclined to believe you than the SikhChic article.

Your research skills are a bit lacking if you cannot tell that the editor of SikhChic is T. Sher Singh from Canada. This is public knowledge.

As they took the same line with the Darshan Singh controversy, I know that the site and its readers are anti-Dasam Granth, the same way that one side of the parties involved in the fight are pro-Dasam Granth. Now from a scholarly perspective, which Dhundha is operating in, the jury is still out on the Dasam Granth. What the pro-Dasam Granth folks should do, is mount a similar effort speaking in the same language that Dhundha does to bury his arguement once and for all. For someone like me who didn't grow up with the Dasam Granth, and who has only seen the Dasam Granth once, in a Nihang Dera near Patiala, I feel like I need to be properly convinced that it deserves to be taken as bani. I don't take a hard line against it, I just haven't heard a good case for it. Now, in regards to this situation, I have a hard time understanding your interpretation:

*someone* in the gurdwara committee must have invited Dhunda

the sangat was opposed to this

so then Dhundas supporters paid people to come in and begin fighting in the gurdwara? So I take it that the darbar hall must not have had any local sangat in it to begin with, since they opposed Dhunda being there in the first place.

I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying I don't follow your logic.

On the notion of caste, I would still say that the UK is fractured on those lines. You dont see gurdwaras in Canada or the US proudly displaying a caste name as the title of the Gurughar, heterogeneity/diversity doesn't imply panthic unity.

Also I'm curious to see if there is a Bhatra who speaks this "ancient language from Sri Lanka"

I'm so sorry if I offended anyone, bhul chuk maaf!

Dasam granth is granth of khalsa. if there is no dg there is no khalsa. if there is no khalsa, there is no sikhi.

your lack of info on dasam granth does not make this scripture less authentic.

[Mehtab Singh]

can you change my username to "Car-Park Kharkhoo"? Sounds awesome.

You sure? Seriously? Fer baadcho nah kahi haiiiii ah kee kartaaaa :giggle:

[West London Singh]

WLS I appreciate your post, but don't appreciate your tone

I'm the total opposite. I appreciate your gentle tone but don't appreciate your posts. All they do is waste 5 minutes of my life.

I didn't say that I take the article for face value, which is precisely why I brought it to the forum, to try to see what is going on. If there are differing accounts of whats going on, could you point me to an article or forum where the issue is better discussed? I should be no more inclined to believe you than the SikhChic article.

But you did take the sikhchic article at face value. Thats why you started your thread with a criticism of the UK Sikhs for opposing him. The feelings of the forum members are a good indication of the popular feeling of UK Sikhs and as you can see something like 9 out of 10 UK Sikhs are opposed to Dhundha for causing division among the Sikhs.

*someone* in the gurdwara committee must have invited Dhunda

the sangat was opposed to this

so then Dhundas supporters paid people to come in and begin fighting in the gurdwara? So I take it that the darbar hall must not have had any local sangat in it to begin with, since they opposed Dhunda being there in the first place.

I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying I don't follow your logic.

Logic's not your strong point fella. Its no secret that Gurdwara Committee's are the biggest threat to Sikhism in the west today. They organise alcohol parties in gurdwara halls....they organise stopovers in Hindu Temples to do pooja during nagar kirtans. Why is it that you expect them to listen to their sangat's concerns when it comes to Dhundha ?

On the notion of caste, I would still say that the UK is fractured on those lines. You dont see gurdwaras in Canada or the US proudly displaying a caste name as the title of the Gurughar, heterogeneity/diversity doesn't imply panthic unity.

I already mentioned your lack of observation skills in my first message so there's no need to go over old ground. I visit Canada often as I have as many close relations there on the west coast as I do in England. How is it that my eyes can see the Ramgharia Gurdwaras there whilst your eyes cannot ? In fact I've seen them all over Canada, from Vancouver to Toronto. You may need to get out more often. You might then see the many chamar gurdwaras there also. You don't have the Bhatra or Afghan Gurdwaras because you don't have enough of them in large numbers. For example, the UK does not have any Labana Gurdwara because there are not enough of them here. How silly would we then be to look at the situation in America and their separate Labana temples and come to the conclusion that America is fractured along caste lines ? Whatever level of sillyness that would be you can take it that you are at that level.

Your research skills are a bit lacking if you cannot tell that the editor of SikhChic is T. Sher Singh from Canada. This is public knowledge.

I've already talked about perception skills and you, so lets not go over that again. Poetic licence. The need to wax lyrical sometimes requires taking liberties otherwise the comedic value of the message which gives it potency is lost.

Having said that though, are we to assume that T.Sher Singh has nothing else to do in his life so has sole responsibility to edit the comments on sikhchic on a full time basis ? Does he not know anyone else ? So many questions. Here's some more : Is it T. Singh ? or Sher Singh ? Or is it a fella with the middle name of Sher and thus not a Singh at all ?

Also I'm curious to see if there is a Bhatra who speaks this "ancient language from Sri Lanka"

So am I. But seeing how I am neither a bhatra nor the president of the bhatra appreciation society it is something you'll have to take up with them themselves. You'll have to ask why they keep mentioning their old dravidian language on their websites and you'll probably have to ask the descendents of Denzil Ibbetson and Horace Rose why their great-grandfathers made similar statements in the late 1800's in their 'Glossary of the tribes of the Punjab' in which they articulate how the bhatras moved up to the Punjab after Guru Nanak Dev ji's missionary trip to Sri Lanka.

Curiosity is no bad thing Singhster, but you know it is something that can be satisfied with a bit of reading.

[DailyMail]

WLS,

I agree that it is wrong for anyone, be it Sikhchic or otherwise, to claim that one side is entirely correct and the other entirely wrong. Dhunda has certainly appeared misguided in certain areas in what he said. The fact that the current and former committee members (of Park Ave) used equally misguided youth to fight a proxy war in Park Ave on the 11th November further adds to the aura of confusion of the Dhunda saga.

Yes, I agree also with what you say about khatri Sikhs in sporadic commuities in the US. I am not as knowledgable about North American Sikhs as you are, but I have travelled extensively in South-East Asia. The caste make-up of Malaysia and Singapore is similar to Canada whilst Thailand is similar to the East Coast of the US!

[GPS]

On a side note, unlike Canada, the USA isn't as homogenous as WLS appears to project. The entire east coast is saturated with khatri Sikhs almost void of jatts. The west coast however, is somewhat different, as we all know!

USA is very diverse as far as ethnic population is concerned. Whether it is east or west coast, jat sikhs from Punjab far outnumber

khatri sikhs. Almost all Gurudwaras on east coast are managed by Jat sikhs with very few exceptions.