End The Pakhand Of So Called 'agan Bhet' Ceremony

[N30S1NGH]

Gurmukh and Sants same thing in avastha..so are we supposed to be sant followers now? Every sikh has a personal relationship between them and guru..why drag sant/gurmukh- middle person...? I am sure they have good advise, they are good for sangat..even then they have personal relationship between them and guru just like we do and their relationship does not supersede their fellow sikh relationship between them and guru...why drag them in this particular matter? It's clearly an sikh emotional feeling towards guru sahib saroop being burned alive..!!!!!!!

[Only five]

Can admins or mods step in here. I have no desire to entertain this person. He came fighting from another thread and now wants to start here. I have walked away from him many times and let him say what he wants many times. You continue to let him go on and on harassing others. And you can't say you have a tough time reading every post because hes a regular here and you know who are instigators here. Just recently you picked up on a member making another account after she wrote a post.

At least put him under quality control, then he will use his cunning ways to insult others and that will slip under your radar, which won't matter. Or give him my location and a plane ticket so we can set up a face to face meeting and he can take his anger out on me. I won't raise one hand to him and you can give him a bat with nails in it. Let him take out his anger and if hes lucky he can curve stomp my face in with steel toe boots.

[harjio2610]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

I am utterly blown away, shocked and greatly hurt by this particular thread discussing the Agan Bhet sewa that will be taking place in Toronto this June.

TO DasamSarblohGranth" : Your approach to this matter is quiet unprofessional and to my understanding very disgraceful and extremely disrespectful for so many reasons. In reading the topic discussed in this thread, particularly the manner in which you have posted your view, the lack of knowledge and understanding of this sewa is quiet clear.

First of all, I would like to say that if you truly have a concern with this issue and wish to take action, hiding behind a username on a discussion board is definitely not a smart move. I am sorry to say however, the manner in which you have "CHALLENGED THE SANGAT TO STAND UP", is very discouraging. As a matter of fact, if you were a true believer in what you have said, then you would not need to hide behind a computer, copy and paste information from different sites, analyze and critique it according to your own knowledge and then try to convince people that your right. Rather, you would contact sewadaars directly and go the extra step to research valid and supporting information that actually "MAKES SENSE". and just maybe by doing so you will come to understand that you have been greatly mistaken.

I have read through your entire post and I was utterly shocked at the terms you have used ("pakhand","sensible people", "pathetic traits" etc") , the biased manner of your approach, the reasoning for your views and most of all YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. Please do not misguide the sangat with such falsified information that is only and ONLY BIAS.

IT IS A HUMBLE REQUEST TO YOU, TO PLEASE FULLY EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE POSTING And maybe I should define what I mean by educating yourself. Educating yourself does not simply mean you sit on a computer, read articles, watch a video or just talk to other people about it. Educating yourself means experiencing reality by being a part of the sewa, seeing it for yourself, and finally asking questions to those that conduct it when in doubt. Then, I would consider your words as valuable and worth my time to read and "ponder" upon. You have obviously not done any of that and therefore for you to sit back behind a username and a computer and create a outrage about a topic you have absolutely no knowledge about, is what I would call "insensibility".

With Guru Jee's blessings, I have been attending these sewas all over India as well as in Canada for the past 9 years. When I first heard of it, I myself had many questions but with Guru Jee's kirpa I have come to know the importance of this sewa.

Take a minute to think about how many Sikhs, how many Sikh homes and how many Sikh Gurdwaras are all over the world. Now think about how many Gurdwaras and Sikh homes will have printed gutke sahib, pothis, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's saroops. I would say countless. In addition, think about the mass production of Gurbani literature that contains bani, gurbani CD's, DVD's, VCD's, and rumalle sahib that have bani printed all over them. On a smaller scale just think within our homes, how many calenders and wedding cards have gurbani printed all over them, how many Guru Jee's photos are printed regularly and sold all throughout the world. These are just some articles I have listed that have Gurbani printed on them. Could you take a minute to understand that if all these articles become completely worn out and old, how will every Sikh in every home and Gurdwara be able to take care of every single type of gurbani article with complete respect. If anything, beadbi of Guru Jee's birdh (old) saroops, gutke sahib, pothis etc. will occur. As more and more gutke sahib, Guru Jee's saroops, pothi sahibs are printed, more and more are becoming worn out and old. How can you restore everything? This is why agan bhet sewa is not considered a wrongful sewa.

Many are having an issue that we cannot burn our Guru and destroy him. N30SINGH' posted, " guru sahib saroop (who is alive never gets born, die or be old)" in one of their posts. Now if it is agreed upon that Guru Granth Sahib Jee is our Shabad Guru that never dies then how can doing agan bhet of birdh saroops make you think that we are destroying our Guru? Then we are only contradicting ourselves. Our Guru, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee has two major dimensions, the internal/spiritual and external/materialistic. Guru Sahib Jee's saroops are manifestations of the Guru. The scriptural form is paper, ink and binding but our Guru is external and immortal. Again, this agan bhet sewa is ONLY done of printed articles (which are copies of the originals). When articles are agan bhet, we only touch into the external/materialistic nature of our Guru only which we are required to simply because all forms of living and nonliving things in the world are materialistic and destructible. We can never destroy the Shabad Guru.

Further,I want to make this clear that since the initiation of the printing press which began the printing of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's saroops, gutke sahib, pothis, gurbani literature etc. in masses for the sangat, the sewa sambhaal(care) of all PRINTED articles that have worn out and become old became a huge concern for the panth. As a result, many groups realized that this sort of sewa should be occurring and therefore, many began to agan bhet such gurbani articles. The SGPC also understood the need for this sewa and began their own system in which great beadbi was involved. Bhai Narinder Singh had originally seen the way the SGPC had began this sewa and was greatly hurt by their approach. As a result, he initiated this sewa with the utmost respect and care that became world-wide known and today understood and accepted as the absolute proper way to do this sewa.

However, in regards to your post, you have greatly been mistaken in targeting the wrong group of sewadaars which involves Bhai Narinder Singh Jee. There are other groups of individuals that are conducting this sewa however you need to understand a clear distinction between them and the sewa Bhai Narinder Singh Jee conducts. NO other group or sewadaars doing this sewa anywhere else in the world has been approved by the panth as respected and acceptable. The videos and information you have been posting with your argument are all mixed up and confused as they are involving completely different sewadaars. However, your initial argument is targeting the sewa that is going to occur this June in Toronto which is hosted by Bhai Narinder Singh Jee. Again, your statements have no foundation and no leading argument.

For someone like yourself such statements may make no sense because you obviously believe that nothing should be agan bhet. Before I jump to any other detail, I am going to make something very clear to you and your supporters. No and I mean NO Handwritten saroops of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Dasam Granth, Sarbloh Granth, No Handwritten Gutke sahib or Pothis or any other historically significant findings of our panth has or is ever agan bhet under Bhai Narinder Singh Jee in any circumstances. WE HAVE PROOF OF EVERY SAROOP, GUTKE SAHIB, POTHIS ETC. THAT HAS EVER ARRIVED AT THE ISTHAANS IN INDIA WHERE THIS SEWA OCCURS SINCE THE SEWA BEGAN UNDER BHAI SAHIB JEE. WE HAVE PROOF OF EVERY HANDWRITTEN ARTICLE OF GURBANI AS WELL AS ALL OTHER HISTORICAL ITEMS THAT HAVE EVER BEEN SENT TO THE REFERENCE LIBRARY IN AMRITSAR IN THE INTENTION TO HELP REVIVE OUR SIKH HISTORY. To date, according to all our records, 300 handwritten saroops of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, 90 handwritten saroops of Dasam Granth have been sent to the reference library in Amritsar. Bhai Narinder Singh Jee has documented and recorded all this information. How can you make such huge assumptions that Bhai Sahib Jee is involved in destroying historical articles of our panth. With what support do you state this?

In preparation, this sewa has been done with great precision and detail with sangat doing darshan or Guru Ji's saroop 3 times and making detailed notes and then, a final decision. Also it should be cleared that many many different type of saroops arrive at the sewa asthaans all through India from Laariwaar saroops to Handwritten saroops, and there has NEVER been a system through which certain types of saroops are agan bhet and a certain type are not.

It is a humble request to you to please think twice about posting anything about this topic. If parchar of such falsified information continues, THE SGPC CAN AND WILL TAKE ACTION AGAINST THOSE INDIVIDUALS. I have provided many links below which discuss this sewa in detail. If this thread was truly began to discuss that this sort of sewa should not be occurring within the panth because on personal notes, it is "WRONG", then you will also go the extra step to realize that you have not entirely discovered the truth and just maybe, you will do your research next time before posting biased opinions with no founding evidence or support.

If you and your supporters are greatly concerned that our Sikh history is being destroyed then it is requested that you attend the sewa occurring in Toronto this June and speak to Bhai Narinder Singh Jee yourself in person.

Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

[GPS]

Gurmukh and Sants same thing in avastha..so are we supposed to be sant followers now? Every sikh has a personal relationship between them and guru..why drag sant/gurmukh- middle person...? I am sure they have good advise, they are good for sangat..even then they have personal relationship between them and guru just like we do and their relationship does not supersede their fellow sikh relationship between them and guru...why drag them in this particular matter? It's clearly an sikh emotional feeling towards guru sahib saroop being burned alive..!!!!!!!

There is no doubt that Guru Granth sahib has jyot of our Guru sahib. It is written bani that is our Guru or shabad guru. Shabad ever resonates in cosmos and never die. Guru Granth sahib is written form of shabad Guru. What will you do when these words of Gurbani age out and are not legible.Obviously you will do agan bhet.

[DSGj]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

I am utterly blown away, shocked and greatly hurt by this particular thread discussing the Agan Bhet sewa that will be taking place in Toronto this June.

First of all, I would like to say that if you truly have a concern with this issue and wish to take action, hiding behind a username on a discussion board is definitely not a smart move. I am sorry to say however, the manner in which you have "CHALLENGED THE SANGAT TO STAND UP", is very discouraging. As a matter of fact, if you were a true believer in what you have said, then you would not need to hide behind a computer, copy and paste information from different sites, analyze and critique it according to your own knowledge and then try to convince people that your right. Rather, you would contact sewadaars directly and go the extra step to research valid and supporting information that actually "MAKES SENSE". and just maybe by doing so you will come to understand that you have been greatly mistaken.

I have read through your entire post and I was utterly shocked at the terms you have used ("pakhand","sensible people", "pathetic traits" etc") , the biased manner of your approach, the reasoning for your views and most of all YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. Please do not misguide the sangat with such falsified information that is only and ONLY BIAS.

IT IS A HUMBLE REQUEST TO YOU, TO PLEASE FULLY EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE POSTING And maybe I should define what I mean by educating yourself. Educating yourself does not simply mean you sit on a computer, read articles, watch a video or just talk to other people about it. Educating yourself means experiencing reality by being a part of the sewa, seeing it for yourself, and finally asking questions to those that conduct it when in doubt. Then, I would consider your words as valuable and worth my time to read and "ponder" upon. You have obviously not done any of that and therefore for you to sit back behind a username and a computer and create a outrage about a topic you have absolutely no knowledge about, is what I would call "insensibility".

With Guru Jee's blessings, I have been attending these sewas all over India as well as in Canada for the past 9 years. When I first heard of it, I myself had many questions but with Guru Jee's kirpa I have come to know the importance of this sewa.

Take a minute to think about how many Sikhs, how many Sikh homes and how many Sikh Gurdwaras are all over the world. Now think about how many Gurdwaras and Sikh homes will have printed gutke sahib, pothis, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's saroops. I would say countless. In addition, think about the mass production of Gurbani literature that contains bani, gurbani CD's, DVD's, VCD's, and rumalle sahib that have bani printed all over them. On a smaller scale just think within our homes, how many calenders and wedding cards have gurbani printed all over them, how many Guru Jee's photos are printed regularly and sold all throughout the world. These are just some articles I have listed that have Gurbani printed on them. Could you take a minute to understand that if all these articles become completely worn out and old, how will every Sikh in every home and Gurdwara be able to take care of every single type of gurbani article with complete respect. If anything, beadbi of Guru Jee's birdh (old) saroops, gutke sahib, pothis etc. will occur. As more and more gutke sahib, Guru Jee's saroops, pothi sahibs are printed, more and more are becoming worn out and old. How can you restore everything? This is why agan bhet sewa is not considered a wrongful sewa.

Many are having an issue that we cannot burn our Guru and destroy him. N30SINGH' posted, " guru sahib saroop (who is alive never gets born, die or be old)" in one of their posts. Now if it is agreed upon that Guru Granth Sahib Jee is our Shabad Guru that never dies then how can doing agan bhet of birdh saroops make you think that we are destroying our Guru? Then we are only contradicting ourselves. Our Guru, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee has two major dimensions, the internal/spiritual and external/materialistic. Guru Sahib Jee's saroops are manifestations of the Guru. The scriptural form is paper, ink and binding but our Guru is external and immortal. Again, this agan bhet sewa is ONLY done of printed articles (which are copies of the originals). When articles are agan bhet, we only touch into the external/materialistic nature of our Guru only which we are required to simply because all forms of living and nonliving things in the world are materialistic and destructible. We can never destroy the Shabad Guru.

Further,I want to make this clear that since the initiation of the printing press which began the printing of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's saroops, gutke sahib, pothis, gurbani literature etc. in masses for the sangat, the sewa sambhaal(care) of all PRINTED articles that have worn out and become old became a huge concern for the panth. As a result, many groups realized that this sort of sewa should be occurring and therefore, many began to agan bhet such gurbani articles. The SGPC also understood the need for this sewa and began their own system in which great beadbi was involved. Bhai Narinder Singh had originally seen the way the SGPC had began this sewa and was greatly hurt by their approach. As a result, he initiated this sewa with the utmost respect and care that became world-wide known and today understood and accepted as the absolute proper way to do this sewa.

However, in regards to your post, you have greatly been mistaken in targeting the wrong group of sewadaars which involves Bhai Narinder Singh Jee. There are other groups of individuals that are conducting this sewa however you need to understand a clear distinction between them and the sewa Bhai Narinder Singh Jee conducts. NO other group or sewadaars doing this sewa anywhere else in the world has been approved by the panth as respected and acceptable. The videos and information you have been posting with your argument are all mixed up and confused as they are involving completely different sewadaars. However, your initial argument is targeting the sewa that is going to occur this June in Toronto which is hosted by Bhai Narinder Singh Jee. Again, your statements have no foundation and no leading argument.

For someone like yourself such statements may make no sense because you obviously believe that nothing should be agan bhet. Before I jump to any other detail, I am going to make something very clear to you and your supporters. No and I mean NO Handwritten saroops of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Dasam Granth, Sarbloh Granth, No Handwritten Gutke sahib or Pothis or any other historically significant findings of our panth has or is ever agan bhet under Bhai Narinder Singh Jee in any circumstances. WE HAVE PROOF OF EVERY SAROOP, GUTKE SAHIB, POTHIS ETC. THAT HAS EVER ARRIVED AT THE ISTHAANS IN INDIA WHERE THIS SEWA OCCURS SINCE THE SEWA BEGAN UNDER BHAI SAHIB JEE. WE HAVE PROOF OF EVERY HANDWRITTEN ARTICLE OF GURBANI AS WELL AS ALL OTHER HISTORICAL ITEMS THAT HAVE EVER BEEN SENT TO THE REFERENCE LIBRARY IN AMRITSAR IN THE INTENTION TO HELP REVIVE OUR SIKH HISTORY. To date, according to all our records, 300 handwritten saroops of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, 90 handwritten saroops of Dasam Granth have been sent to the reference library in Amritsar. Bhai Narinder Singh Jee has documented and recorded all this information. How can you make such huge assumptions that Bhai Sahib Jee is involved in destroying historical articles of our panth. With what support do you state this?

In preparation, this sewa has been done with great precision and detail with sangat doing darshan or Guru Ji's saroop 3 times and making detailed notes and then, a final decision. Also it should be cleared that many many different type of saroops arrive at the sewa asthaans all through India from Laariwaar saroops to Handwritten saroops, and there has NEVER been a system through which certain types of saroops are agan bhet and a certain type are not.

It is a humble request to you to please think twice about posting anything about this topic. If parchar of such falsified information continues, THE SGPC CAN AND WILL TAKE ACTION AGAINST THOSE INDIVIDUALS. I have provided many links below which discuss this sewa in detail. If this thread was truly began to discuss that this sort of sewa should not be occurring within the panth because on personal notes, it is "WRONG", then you will also go the extra step to realize that you have not entirely discovered the truth and just maybe, you will do your research next time before posting biased opinions with no founding evidence or support.

If you and your supporters are greatly concerned that our Sikh history is being destroyed then it is requested that you attend the sewa occurring in Toronto this June and speak to Bhai Narinder Singh Jee yourself in person.

Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

First of all, what hypocrisy.....you're telling me I'm hiding behind a computer and username and uneducated and this and that....how about you?

I challenge you to go and report me to SGPC.

Go take 'action' against me. I would love to see what you will do.

Your threats are pathetic.

What you say doesn't discredit/cancel out Harsh Singh's eye-witness account.

Also...you still have not been able to counter my FACTUAL arguements.

You guys are PATHETIC when you say that Saroops just automatically get "old" and "aged"....

It is clear that SGPC is the one who controls the printing and also the destruction and has just created a business. Saroops are bought for karam-kaand/corrupt purposes...then when people lose faith or can't handle it....you just light Guru Saroop on fire?

It is a clear business practise and major money maker...

Saroops don't just get 'old' by sitting there.

There are many 100+ year old Saroops that are in amazing condition...

Yet....Saroops printed just a few years ago and aren't even in bad condition are being agan bhet.

You counter my factual evidence from Narinder Singh's own organization.

His organization to date has done agan bhet of millions of Gutkas/Pothis/Senchis.

His organization to date has done agan bhet to hundreds of thousands of Saroops of Granths.

There are under 10,000 Gurdwaras around the world (probably under 7,000).....Most just created within the past 25 to 50 years (especially in countries outside of India).

And yet within past 25 years...under Narinder Singh ALONE....hundreds of thousands of Granths and millions of Gutkas/Pothis/Senchis have been agan bhet?????

I have a VERY HARD TIME believing that those many items are worthy of agan bhet. Look at the facts...not your baseless theories.

There would be no need for "Approved" publishers to keep on printing if the 'approved' agan bhet people actually did their job properly and put some time and effort and care and actually restored the items so they can be 'reused'.

It is all just a money making scheme. You're threatening me that the SGPC is going to take action on me...when they couldn't even take action on corrupt publishers...jathedars...babas...employees...etc. SGPC itself is as corrupt as they get.

LOL, WHAT A JOKE.......

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/39579-chatar-singh-jiwan-singh-caught-wid-60kg-heroine/

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/31323-chattar-jeewan-singh-gets-beaten-4-beadbi/

http://www.panthic.org/articles/4956

http://www.panthic.org/alerts/1000023

http://sachibani.webs.com/apps/blog/show/4511186-beadbi-of-2500-saroop-of-guru-granth-sahib-ji

http://www.panthic.org/articles/5408

http://www.panthic.org/articles/3607

http://www.panthic.org/articles/4074

http://www.panthic.org/news/126/ARTICLE/4039/2008-04-17.html

The list could go on and on and on...........

Our firm M/s. B. Chattar Singh Jiwan Singh is an oldest firm, who has been publishing books on Sikh religion. This firm was established in 1875 A.D. for the propogation of the Sikh religion. Keeping this aim in view we started composing the hand written Guru Granth Sahib Ji to manifest in Gurdwaras. We appointed some scribes of good hands to write the Gurbani and Sri Guru Granth Sahibs. We also made elaborate arrangements for the decent bindings of the holy Granth.

When the process of lithoprinting was introduced we published the lithographic volumes of the holy Granth and Gurbani Gutkas.

With the change of time we started publishing the holy Granth and Gutkas in type printing and we are pioneers in this field to bring out the first type printed Sri Guru Granth Sahib. There would not be no exaggeration if we assert that first 'Pad Shed' (Seperate Words) Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was published by our firm. The well known Sikh scholar Giani Mohinder Singh 'Rattan' son of S. Budh Singh Ji did this important work. Our next project was to publish books on Sikh history and Sikh philosophy. For this purpose we had to establish a well to date printing press. So now we installed Jeewan Printers and equipped it with up to date Computers, Offset Machines & Binding Units. Now this printing press is unique in this field.......

Oh yeah....let me add one more though/action of the SGPC who you're threatening me about....

In recent weeks the Sikh Nation have received shocking news that the Shromani Gurdwara Prabandak Committee (SGPC) wish to do Saskaar of (to cremate) the Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj which was shot in June 1984.

These steps have caused uproar within the Sikh community who are strongly against such action. The Saroop is invaluable due to the significant history it represents.

In recent years cremation of Old handwritten Gutkeh Sahibs, Pothian (Panj Granthi, Das Granthis), Saroops and historical texts have been cremated in high volume. Before our eyes the history of the Sikh Nation is being attacked and destroyed, leaving us with very little proof of our real history.

It is well known fact that Sri Akaal Takht Sahib was looted in 1984, with great losses of rare texts and relics from Guru Ji’s period.

Sevadaars from 1G UK were able to obtain three rare images of the aforementioned Saroop which SGPC wish to cremate. These unreleased images show the Saroop was directly shot at and the bullet hole still remains. A harsh memory of 1984…

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70390-puratan-saroop-shot-in-1984-pictures-exclusive-article/

I'm sure Narinder Singh would love to do this as well....as he is the Panth 'approved' person to do it.....and just follows whatever orders he gets from SGPC.....

This is very good advice for corruption supporters like you who hypocritically threaten people with 'action' being taken against their 'falsehoold'....

Fareedaa Jae Too Akal Lateef Kaalae Likh Na Laekh |

Aapanarrae Gireevaan Meh Sir Neevaa Kar Daekh |6|

Fareed, if you have a keen understanding, then do not write black marks against anyone else.

Look underneath your own collar instead. ||6||

There is no doubt that Guru Granth sahib has jyot of our Guru sahib. It is written bani that is our Guru or shabad guru. Shabad ever resonates in cosmos and never die. Guru Granth sahib is written form of shabad Guru. What will you do when these words of Gurbani age out and are not legible.Obviously you will do agan bhet.

How are the words worn out? Please tell me. If Guru Granth Sahib Jee is given as much respect as it should....the words most likely wouldn't wear out for hundreds of years. Yet you see less than 50 year old Saroops being agan bhet.......hundreds of thousands of Granths....millions of Gutkas......most of them printed within last 10-15 years.

You guys are wayyyy to lazy......you can't even attempt to put the time and care to restore the item.....instead you are too eager to put some oil/ghee/ghio and create a fire.

You guys talk like something just magically gets old and that wear and tear happens by people doing exercise with the Granths.

The Granths aren't used as weights for a benchpress.....

[N30S1NGH]

There is no doubt that Guru Granth sahib has jyot of our Guru sahib. It is written bani that is our Guru or shabad guru. Shabad ever resonates in cosmos and never die. Guru Granth sahib is written form of shabad Guru. What will you do when these words of Gurbani age out and are not legible.Obviously you will do agan bhet.

Let's see words of Gurbani age out so put it in contrast Guru nanak dev ji finger (ang) age out so lets not fix the finger by putting a Patti of Ikongkar but instead pick the whole alive body of guru sahib and burn him alive as 'little finger' ang is beyond repair... Seriously??????? What a sad state of affairs.

[Only five]

The seva of Agan Bhet of Maharaj is not a new seva that was invented in this century, but has been around for decades and decades. This seva was not started because the Khalsa Panth is lazy or don't consider Bani as the living Guru.

The Ten Gurus were the visible form of Shabad Guru. There whole body vibrated with Shabad Guru and was covered in Shabad Guru. If you disagree, then why was Charan di Pahul done with Satguru's feet? If a body is a body, then there should have no Charan di Pahul done over Satguru's feet. Why were their bodies allowed to be Agan Bhet? The first and fifth Gurus body disappeared before the dusht can humiliate Satguru's form. The Ninth Guru's body and head were taken by Sikhs so the dusht could not parade around with Satguru's form as a sign of victory over humanity. Lives were sacrificed to protect the human form of Shabad Guru. Neither does Shabad Guru come and go, Shabad Guru is ever present, but we have not developed the eyes to see it.

Take the history of Adi Granth being compiled. Yet still we had 5 human Gurus before Adi Granth was given Guruship. Were the human Guru's so arrogant to not see the Shabad Guru (living Guru in written form) is present, yet still sat on the Takhts as Gurus? If written form of Shabad Guru is Guru, then why didn't Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj give Guruship the first time when Ik Onkar was written down or spoken? Why wait 300 years to do such an act? Those that are thinking that Adi Granth was not complete are fooling themselves because Adi Granth starts with Ik Onkar and continues on with Ik Onkar. There is no middle or end to Shabad Guru. If Adi Granth was not complete, how did Sri Guru Angad Dev ji become a SIkh and then the second Gurus of the Sikhs? Satguru says there is no difference between any of the Guru's, then why do we discriminate against each form. It's okay to Agan Bhet of the human form, but when written form is going to get Agan Bhet all hell breaks loose.

ਬਾਣੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਾਰੇ ॥

Without any doubt Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj must be respected as the Gurus in human form performed. However this is one of many forms of Shabad Guru, which cannot be destroyed by any fire. The ink and the ang is taken by the fire, but the Shabad Guru stays in his original form Gurbani is being opened on computers and people mock those that do Chaur Sahib di seva over the computer. Those that mock are limiting themselves because they can't see that Satguru just doesn't have a hard cover and pages. For them they need to see a book shaped Granth to say Satguru is before me.

[isingh1699]

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

I am utterly blown away, shocked and greatly hurt by this particular thread discussing the Agan Bhet sewa that will be taking place in Toronto this June.

TO DasamSarblohGranth" : Your approach to this matter is quiet unprofessional and to my understanding very disgraceful and extremely disrespectful for so many reasons. In reading the topic discussed in this thread, particularly the manner in which you have posted your view, the lack of knowledge and understanding of this sewa is quiet clear.

First of all, I would like to say that if you truly have a concern with this issue and wish to take action, hiding behind a username on a discussion board is definitely not a smart move. I am sorry to say however, the manner in which you have "CHALLENGED THE SANGAT TO STAND UP", is very discouraging. As a matter of fact, if you were a true believer in what you have said, then you would not need to hide behind a computer, copy and paste information from different sites, analyze and critique it according to your own knowledge and then try to convince people that your right. Rather, you would contact sewadaars directly and go the extra step to research valid and supporting information that actually "MAKES SENSE". and just maybe by doing so you will come to understand that you have been greatly mistaken.

I have read through your entire post and I was utterly shocked at the terms you have used ("pakhand","sensible people", "pathetic traits" etc") , the biased manner of your approach, the reasoning for your views and most of all YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. Please do not misguide the sangat with such falsified information that is only and ONLY BIAS.

IT IS A HUMBLE REQUEST TO YOU, TO PLEASE FULLY EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE POSTING And maybe I should define what I mean by educating yourself. Educating yourself does not simply mean you sit on a computer, read articles, watch a video or just talk to other people about it. Educating yourself means experiencing reality by being a part of the sewa, seeing it for yourself, and finally asking questions to those that conduct it when in doubt. Then, I would consider your words as valuable and worth my time to read and "ponder" upon. You have obviously not done any of that and therefore for you to sit back behind a username and a computer and create a outrage about a topic you have absolutely no knowledge about, is what I would call "insensibility".

With Guru Jee's blessings, I have been attending these sewas all over India as well as in Canada for the past 9 years. When I first heard of it, I myself had many questions but with Guru Jee's kirpa I have come to know the importance of this sewa.

Take a minute to think about how many Sikhs, how many Sikh homes and how many Sikh Gurdwaras are all over the world. Now think about how many Gurdwaras and Sikh homes will have printed gutke sahib, pothis, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's saroops. I would say countless. In addition, think about the mass production of Gurbani literature that contains bani, gurbani CD's, DVD's, VCD's, and rumalle sahib that have bani printed all over them. On a smaller scale just think within our homes, how many calenders and wedding cards have gurbani printed all over them, how many Guru Jee's photos are printed regularly and sold all throughout the world. These are just some articles I have listed that have Gurbani printed on them. Could you take a minute to understand that if all these articles become completely worn out and old, how will every Sikh in every home and Gurdwara be able to take care of every single type of gurbani article with complete respect. If anything, beadbi of Guru Jee's birdh (old) saroops, gutke sahib, pothis etc. will occur. As more and more gutke sahib, Guru Jee's saroops, pothi sahibs are printed, more and more are becoming worn out and old. How can you restore everything? This is why agan bhet sewa is not considered a wrongful sewa.

Many are having an issue that we cannot burn our Guru and destroy him. N30SINGH' posted, " guru sahib saroop (who is alive never gets born, die or be old)" in one of their posts. Now if it is agreed upon that Guru Granth Sahib Jee is our Shabad Guru that never dies then how can doing agan bhet of birdh saroops make you think that we are destroying our Guru? Then we are only contradicting ourselves. Our Guru, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee has two major dimensions, the internal/spiritual and external/materialistic. Guru Sahib Jee's saroops are manifestations of the Guru. The scriptural form is paper, ink and binding but our Guru is external and immortal. Again, this agan bhet sewa is ONLY done of printed articles (which are copies of the originals). When articles are agan bhet, we only touch into the external/materialistic nature of our Guru only which we are required to simply because all forms of living and nonliving things in the world are materialistic and destructible. We can never destroy the Shabad Guru.

Further,I want to make this clear that since the initiation of the printing press which began the printing of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's saroops, gutke sahib, pothis, gurbani literature etc. in masses for the sangat, the sewa sambhaal(care) of all PRINTED articles that have worn out and become old became a huge concern for the panth. As a result, many groups realized that this sort of sewa should be occurring and therefore, many began to agan bhet such gurbani articles. The SGPC also understood the need for this sewa and began their own system in which great beadbi was involved. Bhai Narinder Singh had originally seen the way the SGPC had began this sewa and was greatly hurt by their approach. As a result, he initiated this sewa with the utmost respect and care that became world-wide known and today understood and accepted as the absolute proper way to do this sewa.

However, in regards to your post, you have greatly been mistaken in targeting the wrong group of sewadaars which involves Bhai Narinder Singh Jee. There are other groups of individuals that are conducting this sewa however you need to understand a clear distinction between them and the sewa Bhai Narinder Singh Jee conducts. NO other group or sewadaars doing this sewa anywhere else in the world has been approved by the panth as respected and acceptable. The videos and information you have been posting with your argument are all mixed up and confused as they are involving completely different sewadaars. However, your initial argument is targeting the sewa that is going to occur this June in Toronto which is hosted by Bhai Narinder Singh Jee. Again, your statements have no foundation and no leading argument.

For someone like yourself such statements may make no sense because you obviously believe that nothing should be agan bhet. Before I jump to any other detail, I am going to make something very clear to you and your supporters. No and I mean NO Handwritten saroops of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Dasam Granth, Sarbloh Granth, No Handwritten Gutke sahib or Pothis or any other historically significant findings of our panth has or is ever agan bhet under Bhai Narinder Singh Jee in any circumstances. WE HAVE PROOF OF EVERY SAROOP, GUTKE SAHIB, POTHIS ETC. THAT HAS EVER ARRIVED AT THE ISTHAANS IN INDIA WHERE THIS SEWA OCCURS SINCE THE SEWA BEGAN UNDER BHAI SAHIB JEE. WE HAVE PROOF OF EVERY HANDWRITTEN ARTICLE OF GURBANI AS WELL AS ALL OTHER HISTORICAL ITEMS THAT HAVE EVER BEEN SENT TO THE REFERENCE LIBRARY IN AMRITSAR IN THE INTENTION TO HELP REVIVE OUR SIKH HISTORY. To date, according to all our records, 300 handwritten saroops of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, 90 handwritten saroops of Dasam Granth have been sent to the reference library in Amritsar. Bhai Narinder Singh Jee has documented and recorded all this information. How can you make such huge assumptions that Bhai Sahib Jee is involved in destroying historical articles of our panth. With what support do you state this?

In preparation, this sewa has been done with great precision and detail with sangat doing darshan or Guru Ji's saroop 3 times and making detailed notes and then, a final decision. Also it should be cleared that many many different type of saroops arrive at the sewa asthaans all through India from Laariwaar saroops to Handwritten saroops, and there has NEVER been a system through which certain types of saroops are agan bhet and a certain type are not.

It is a humble request to you to please think twice about posting anything about this topic. If parchar of such falsified information continues, THE SGPC CAN AND WILL TAKE ACTION AGAINST THOSE INDIVIDUALS. I have provided many links below which discuss this sewa in detail. If this thread was truly began to discuss that this sort of sewa should not be occurring within the panth because on personal notes, it is "WRONG", then you will also go the extra step to realize that you have not entirely discovered the truth and just maybe, you will do your research next time before posting biased opinions with no founding evidence or support.

If you and your supporters are greatly concerned that our Sikh history is being destroyed then it is requested that you attend the sewa occurring in Toronto this June and speak to Bhai Narinder Singh Jee yourself in person.

Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

Harjio Ji thank you for educating people like me to understand this in a more balanced way

[GuptUnknown]

Does anyone know what Gurmukhs have said on this topic. Can recordings and/or videos be posted. Nothing will be solved by yelling at each other. I see there are genuine people on both sides of the discussion. When both sides are deadlocked it best to ask a Gurmukh on what should be done.

This sewa has been occuring before. One only needs to look at the time when Sant Gurbachan Singh ji and Sant Isher Singh ji and other mahapurakhs gathered. They had requested "agan bhet"saskaar of the saroops that had been changed by Master Tara.