Head To Head: When Crazy Takes On A New Face

[Singh559]

A good debate for all Sikhs to watch because it hits home on a few issues we're facing today. If the Sikh Raaj had still prevailed I would imagine such a debate hall in a good University would have existed in Punjab/India today.

She did make some good points, what I agree with her is that you can't make an exact interpretation. In Sikhi doesn't Taksal, Nihang Singhs and Nirmale say that no one individual has a final say on interpretation and the reason for Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale not writing his katha in likhat saroop is because he didn't want his katha to be the final say as Gurbani is Agaad Bodh and in the future interpretation may slightly change. The clear line I will draw here is that you can't change a meaning of a scripture. For example the controversial verses in the Quran and the various hadiths that call for murdering non-believers and not befriending Jews/non believers can't be interpreted to they do not mean they call for murdering non believers ect. In Sikhi we don't face a problem of interpretation of such verses because Gurbani is from Akaal Purakh and there are no contradictions nor is there a call for violence, but instead to fight against the Panj Chore on a daily basis.

Another point I agree with her on is that the Imaams and priestly class in their religion act like they are the final say on the Koran. This reminds me of a lot of so called fake Sants in our Panth that act like priests when instead each Sikh is supposed to do khoj and read Gurbani and refer to only real Brahmgianis and Sants. Some may say well where is the radar to see a real Sant? A real Sant will never say their way or the highway and they will not use their own budhi, but instead talk of Gurbani and tell a person to become a GurSikh and make his/her own avastha. GurSikhs have the power to create more GurSikhs like a paaras.

The reason why Sikhs WILL NOT have this problem in the future IF AND ONLY IF we take back our institutions and UNITE as a Panth is because the Panth is considered supreme and the Panth is what guides the Sikh Nation. We are supposed to make an Akaal Takhat Jathedar Sahib to lead the Panth. The problem of a bunch of phoney priests making up their own stuff is averted because Guru Sahib himself took Amrit from Panj Piyare and gave Amrit to Panj Piyare and declared the Panth Khalsa as supreme and Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji created the Akaal Takhat Sahib as the seat of the Sikhs to ensure there is unity and the Panth is able to enact a caretaker like Akali Phoola Singh Ji.

Where she loses me is where she says you need to change the Koran, I have no idea where I stand on this issue as I am not a scholar so I don't have enough knowledge to say whether I believe they should change their book and remove objectionable points. From my understanding Jews had a similar problem in the past and they changed and reconciled with the said verses.

The gay issue is going to be an issue that we will face. We need a strong Akaal Takhat Jathedar Sahib to lead the Panth and clarify on the Hukanamas against gay Anand Karaj marriages because a lot of hippy brainwashed youth are openly supporting gays doing Anand Karaj. There is a strong lack of explanation and understanding from the Gurmat perspective as to why they should not be allowed.

[VanHelsingh]

Where she loses me is where she says you need to change the Koran, I have no idea where I stand on this issue as I am not a scholar so I don't have enough knowledge to say whether I believe they should change their book and remove objectionable points. From my understanding Jews had a similar problem in the past and they changed and reconciled with the said verses.

IMO that should NEVER be done. When you start doing such things and retroactively altering scriptuers (regardless of whether we believe in them or not) you're basically setting a precedent; and a dangerous one at that. I doubt Muslims would let that happen tbh.

[Only five]

A good debate for all Sikhs to watch because it hits home on a few issues we're facing today. If the Sikh Raaj had still prevailed I would imagine such a debate hall in a good University would have existed in Punjab/India today.

She did make some good points, what I agree with her is that you can't make an exact interpretation. In Sikhi doesn't Taksal, Nihang Singhs and Nirmale say that no one individual has a final say on interpretation and the reason for Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale not writing his katha in likhat saroop is because he didn't want his katha to be the final say as Gurbani is Agaad Bodh and in the future interpretation may slightly change. The clear line I will draw here is that you can't change a meaning of a scripture. For example the controversial verses in the Quran and the various hadiths that call for murdering non-believers and not befriending Jews/non believers can't be interpreted to they do not mean they call for murdering non believers ect. In Sikhi we don't face a problem of interpretation of such verses because Gurbani is from Akaal Purakh and there are no contradictions nor is there a call for violence, but instead to fight against the Panj Chore on a daily basis.

Singh, can you explain what Satguru meant when Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji said Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars are the key to Gurbani?

[MOD]

singhsoorma1984, this is a formal warning, any more fishy posts and you will be put into quality control and if Mods or Admins aren't feeling your posts, they won't be approved (same as being banned). Deliberately selectively choosing and wrongly interpreting Gurbani to call the Khalsa violent will not be tolerated on SikhSangat.com. Sikhi isn't about picking and choosing one line, it is complete with Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Gobind Singh Ji laid the example of when you're allowed to pick up the sword, it's supposed to be the very last means of survival. Only after Guru Sahib's sons were shaheed, his Piyare Sikhs and Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib and counless other sacrifices did Guru Sahib declare victory to Aurangzeb in the beautifully written Zafarnama.

To a Khalsa it is even wrong to retort to violence even if it may seem justifiable to a normal individual, a Khalsa will think of multiple situations to avoid and quell a situation. Only when ALLLLL means of quelling zalam are exhausted, then and only then is using the sword justified.

Khalsa So Jo Chare Tarang

Khalsa So Jo Kare Nit Jang (Fights kaam krodh lobh moh ahankaar)

Khalsa So Jo Shaastar Ko Tare

Khalsa So Jo Dusht Ko Mare (Who destroys tyrants - again only when ALL means are exhausted.)

[Singh559]

Singh, can you explain what Satguru meant when Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji said Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars are the key to Gurbani?

Yes, I agree with that. I don't think that means there is a 100% exact interpretation. What I mean by this is how missionaries want everything to be broken down into their own exact terms so it is "simple".

I saw this lecture in person and was awe struck at how great it was, but it turned out he has some controversial beliefs himself. With that said, check it out because he mentions the difference between missionary interpretation and Taksal, Nirmale, Nihang Singhs and how teja bhasaur's train of thought is still creeping into the panth today.

I don't know really, I could be wrong, can you please go into more detail what you mean by how Gurbani is an exact interpretation?

[Only five]

Yes, I agree with that. I don't think that means there is a 100% exact interpretation. What I mean by this is how missionaries want everything to be broken down into their own exact terms so it is "simple".

Satguru said Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars are the key to Gurbani. Without any doubt this means Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars ARE the correct interpretation of Gurbani. The only way they can be wrong is if some fool came along and purposely changed Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji did not agree with one tuk, which was posted on sikhsangat while back. Either this Vaar was changed or I humbly say Sant ji is wrong on the matter. Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars have been given this status not by some simple Sikh, but by Satguru and we need to respect this to the last letter regardless of how much we disagree with a Vaar. Anyone's interpretation of Gurbani that does not align with Bhai Sahib is wrong.

Missionaries, Nihangs, Taksal, AKJ, Nanaksar, and the rest cannot deviate from Gurbani and the test of if someone has deviated from Gurbani is Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. If any jatha views and interpretations go against Bhai Sahib's Vaars then consider it manmat.

A key cannot be cut partially right or 95% right. The lock will not open. The key has to be cut just exactly so the lock can be opened.

[Singh559]

Satguru said Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars are the key to Gurbani. Without any doubt this means Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars ARE the correct interpretation of Gurbani. The only way they can be wrong is if some fool came along and purposely changed Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji did not agree with one tuk, which was posted on sikhsangat while back. Either this Vaar was changed or I humbly say Sant ji is wrong on the matter. Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars have been given this status not by some simple Sikh, but by Satguru and we need to respect this to the last letter regardless of how much we disagree with a Vaar. Anyone's interpretation of Gurbani that does not align with Bhai Sahib is wrong.

Missionaries, Nihangs, Taksal, AKJ, Nanaksar, and the rest cannot deviate from Gurbani and the test of if someone has deviated from Gurbani is Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. If any jatha views and interpretations go against Bhai Sahib's Vaars then consider it manmat.

A key cannot be cut partially right or 95% right. The lock will not open. The key has to be cut just exactly so the lock can be opened.

Yeah that does make sense and I agree Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaars are 100% key to Gurbani.

Can that be true and also the thought that Gurbani may bring new rang (maybe wrong to say interpretation) in the new ages as people do more and more khoj. From my understanding Gurbani is also like an ocean because even if you read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Dasam Granth Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaaran multiple times you will always be able to go more in depth.

[Only five]

Yeah that does make sense and I agree Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaars are 100% key to Gurbani.

Can that be true and also the thought that Gurbani may bring new rang (maybe wrong to say interpretation) in the new ages as people do more and more khoj. From my understanding Gurbani is also like an ocean because even if you read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Dasam Granth Sahib Bhai Gurdas Ji Dian Vaaran multiple times you will always be able to go more in depth.

Singh, that is personal improvement, but the interpretation does not change from what Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars already state. The issue is not that Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars are not new age or Bhai Sahib did not do a good job of explaining. We do not have the ability to understand Bhai Sahib on the first, second, or even third try. It's like a math equation. We make many attempts to get the exact figure, but sometimes it does not work on the first, second, or third try. Many find math frustrating because their are absolute values. They give up after couple of tries. Those that work hard at the equation will understand what is the answer and will know how to attain the answer.

Nothing new is going to come out from anyone. What a Gurmukh can do is put things into perspective for those that have a hard time understanding Bhai Sahib. Putting in perspective means to use current popular events to deliver the message home. The interpretation stays the same just more familiar terms will be used. However nothing can replace terms like Shiva, Krishna, or similar terms. As there is no modern Shiva, Krishna, etc. So it is on us to go back and study who these people were and why are they being presented in Gurbani. Bhai Sahib did not lack the knowledge as we do. Therefore his Vaars were given the title as the key to Gurbani.

[Singh559]

I see, the only reason I thought that was because Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale (as I think n30s1ngh paji mentioned and no one replied saying it was wrong) said Gurbani is Agadh Bodh and in the future who knew what new things would be find about Gurbani so they didn't want to limit it to only their interpretation.

I kind of misunderstood.

[N30S1NGH]

One should study gurbani and but importantly also contemplate/do sehaj patt on Gurbani. With studying gurbani via teekas/katha of gurbani, one can get basic idea and framework and should get a urgue to go deep in contemplation/sehaj patt/simran/meditation. Its only after deep contemplation/meditation on gurbani- one perceives/experiences the gurbani in the most profound way one cannot describe as gurbani is everywhere is actual creation of this whole world and is both nirgun and sargun.

Gurbani resosance is always there as its supreme consciousness it's just human just have to attune to it to experience it. Gurbani speaks through during deep meditation/contemplation at various different spiritual levels. Different gurbani interpretations are perceived at various different spiritual levels of an individual going towards bhramgyan. Once human consciousness have experienced gurbani,their arths of gurbani could more in depth than one is used to hearing by scholars/teekars (not to say those scholars are devoid of spirituality or anything- as they tried writing interpretation gurbani in form teekas as much they can.

It just depends on the level of penetration and how one perceives gurbani thats the very reason- why lot of gurbani pankiti could be interpreted as sargun and nirgun(eternal gyan). Sargun because at that moment, thats how gurbani was revealed/experienced to them during contemplation and nirgun because on different moment during contemplation, same gurbani tuk was reveled/experienced to them from gyan(divine knowledge nirgun) aspect in Sikhi..!!

Gurbani is mool nirgun roop thats why it cannot be confined by one interpretation but multiple interpretations based on person spiritual development. Bhai gurdas ji varans are there as key to understand gurbani - basic gurbani frame work its not meant to put final stamp on interpretation of gurbani. There is a difference between understanding gurbani basic frame work and put final stamp of interpretation of gurbani by confining into one interpretation.

It's for that same reason sant gyani gurbachan singh ji khalsa did 35 kathas of gurbani in his life time and all of them have slight different variations- sargun-nirgun gyan arths, more profound deep interpretation at each time and at the end they humbly say ehni das di seva parvan karni and at the end left it at that and rather merged and lost itself totally in the ocean of gurbani. Nirgun gyan roop of gurbani cannot be interpretation but experienced.

Similarly, bhai sahib veer singh ji also was able to complete only partial steek of sri guru granth sahib ji as they cannot continue with gurbani interpretations as it was endless depth of ocean

I will end the post by bhai jaswant singh ji bhagat ji on gurbani arths:

Arth Style

To each individual, based on their own knowledge, describe God differently

If Gurusahib is infinite than so is their understanding. The more you dwell on Banee, the deeper it gets. Based on the individual the appreciation of Banee changes depending on the state of mind of the contemplater. If Banee is an infinite ocean, the deeper one could dive, the greater the experience they feel. In the same manner people describe a flower in millions of ways depending on their experience, Nirankar Saroop Banee Jee can take on different meanings according to one’s spiritual state.

There are two types of translations. First there are word for word translations that just explain each word’s literal meaning. This style of translation is used in most Sateeks available today. However, the style in which Bhagat Jee composed these potheean are distinct. These arth are deeper and are derived from GuruSahib. They revolve around love(ਭਾਉ) and devotion(ਭਗਤੀ ) to GuruSahib. Many translations are given with more than one meaning based on different perspectives.

The style of these Arth are written with the utmost respect for Gurusahib in mind. When referring to GuruSahib everything is written in plural form. Just like in Punjabi subculture a loyal wife has the utmost respect and honour for her husband (ਪਤਿਵ੍ਰਤਾ) and she speaks in plural form. In GuruGranth Sahib Jee, much of the banee is composed as if Vaheguru Jee is our metaphorical husband.

ਮੈ ਕਾਮਣਿ; ਮੇਰਾ ਕੰਤੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥

I am the soul bride and my Husband Lord is the Creator of the universe.

Gurbani is not under grammaticalical boundaries, it is free and self prevading. Trying to add grammar according to one’s own intelligence is a big mistake.

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ॥ ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ॥

If anyone speaks disrespectfully towards Gurbani Guru Ji, they shall be known as the greatest of fools

If people say Banee is bound by grammar, than banee is considered small. But Gurusahib writes that

ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਹੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

Example of Arth:

To give an example in Bhagat Fareed Sahib Jee’s saloks (ਅੰਗ1380), the translations that are normally done are vague. The common translations are as follows:

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਰਤੀ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਨਿਕਲੈ ਜੇ ਤਨੁ ਚੀਰੈ ਕੋਇ॥

Bhagat Fareed Sahib Jee says, those who are imbued with God would not drop a single ounce of blood when their bodies are physically cut.

ਜੋ ਤਨ ਰਤੇ. ਰਬ ਸਿਉ; ਤਿਨ ਤਨਿ. ਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ॥੫੧॥

Because those bodies who are imbued with God contain no blood.

The translations are seen to be vague because all bodies have blood. Just like all Shaheeds of the sikh panth, their bodies are still human to deny that their blood spilled would be flat you mythological storytelling. To combat this dilemma, the same Banee can be seen in a different light with Bhagat Jaswant Singh Jee’s arth.

ਰਤੁ spoken softly translates into love

ਰੱਤ spoken with emphasis (ੱ) means blood.

ਫਰੀਦਾ. ਰਤੀ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਨਿਕਲੈ; ਜੇ ਤਨੁ ਚੀਰੈ ਕੋਇ॥

Bhagat (ਫਰੀਦਾ.)Fareed Sahib Jee according to ਸੰਤ ਅਨੰਤਹਿ; ਅੰਤਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ॥ are describing the spiritual state of those who are imbued with God: (ਜੇ)If (ਕੋਇ)someone tries to (ਤਨੁ)physically (ਚੀਰੈ)cut or torture these Gursevaks or offer them wealth and fame. Since they are merged in WaheguruJi (ਨ)Not even a (ਰਤੀ )miniscule amount of their (ਰਤੁ)love will (ਨਿਕਲੈ)depart from their body

ਰੱਤੇ ਰੱਬ . ਰਤੁ ਪੋਲਾ- ਜੋ ਤਨ ਰਤੇ. ਰਬ ਸਿਉ; ਤਿਨ ਤਨਿ. ਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ॥੫੧॥

This is due to the fact that (ਜੋ )those (ਤਨ)bodies that are (ਰਤੇ)imbued (ਸਿਉ)in the deep colours of (ਰਬ) God, have (ਨ) no (ਰਤੁ )love of attachment for )physical bodies. When one is deeply engrossed in this love for Waheguru, they, like Bhai Mati Daas Jeesacrifice their body in an instant without second thought.