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Do Only Khalsa Amritdhari Gursikhs Leave Reincarnation?


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atma-paratma and its no where to found in bhramgyani supreme consciousness/vahiguroo as its out of maya realm so there is no perception of maya but world being hari roop but perception of maya is found rather in maya mandal (lack of better word) -plane of existence/in non liberated individual consciousness.

I see what your saying there, but there is Gurbani tell me otherwise.

Please take a look at my last post.

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I have been reading the comments on this topic which is very relevant for today's society. Many people have this question. Some comments have strayed away from answering the question in the topic head

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In puratan samparda, sikhs-student/learners would also ponder vaaks of gurbani (may seem contradictory to outsider but its not for sikhs when sikhs dwell deeper in it)
For eg-
How do you reconcile vaks of gurbani with each other below which to an outside may seem contradictory?
ਜਿਉ ਸੁਪਨਾ ਅਰੁ ਪੇਖਨਾ ਐਸੇ ਜਗ ਕਉ ਜਾਨਿ ॥
ਇਨ ਮੈ ਕਛੁ ਸਾਚੋ ਨਹੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥23॥
ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਬੁਦਬੁਦਾ ਉਪਜੈ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਨੀਤ ॥
ਜਗ ਰਚਨਾ ਤੈਸੇ ਰਚੀ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨਿ ਮੀਤ ॥25॥
ਜਗ ਰਚਨਾ ਸਭ ਝੂਠ ਹੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਰੇ ਮੀਤ ॥
ਕਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਥਿਰੁ ਨਾ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਲੂ ਕੀ ਭੀਤਿ ॥49॥
Eh Vish sansar tum dekhde eh har ka roop hai har roop nadri aaya || (Anand sahib and rest of anand sahib puari)
Sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai
Sabh mėh jot jot hai soe.
The light of Parmatma (GOD) is residing in every being.
Ŧis dai chanan sab mėh chanan hoi.
The light shines in every heart with the light of Parmatma.
Zeman zaman kai bhikai samasat ek jot hai
na ghat hai n badh hai na ghat badh hot hai ||
Its not contradictory at all, as these two vaks are gurbani updesh perceived and given to seekeers at different spiritual development stages and are perceived by seeker in its consciouness at different spiritual stages. Lets say person A- who just started sikhi journey- in order to remove attachment of this world- maharaj give updesh of gurbani in shalok nauvan and else where this sansaar is dream/false as its not permanent, no where to found in it non transcedental meditaiton or even deep sleep which we all can relate to.
Same person A after 30-40 years of bhagti/naam simran/seva after guru maharaj kirpa is perceiving now the ultimate non dual/bhramgyan/turiya reality- sargun is nirgun, nirgun is sargun as ~non dual Ik0ngkar ~
Eh Vish sansar tum dekhde eh har ka roop hai har roop nadri aaya ||
Sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai
Sabh mėh jot jot hai soe.
The light of Parmatma (GOD) is residing in every being.
Ŧis dai chanan sab mėh chanan hoi.
The light shines in every heart with the light of Parmatma.
Zeman zaman kai bhikai samasat ek jot hai
na ghat hai n badh hai na ghat badh hot hai ||
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Agreed 100% with what Bijla paji just said, but isn't it inaccurate to say Sikhs believe in monotheism rather than Ik Onkar?

I believe it's injustice to translate it like that into English without losing some meaning.

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Agreed 100% with what Bijla paji just said, but isn't it inaccurate to say Sikhs believe in monotheism rather than Ik Onkar?

I believe it's injustice to translate it like that into English without losing some meaning.

Defining Ik Onkar takes too long and Sikhs are lazy. A lot of meaning is lost when translating into English. Many started to understand Gurbani better with English translations as their first language was not Punjabi, but translations have done a lot more harm than good. Only if their is a Gurmukh who knows both languages will we get a better translation of Gurbani. Right now we are stuck with what we have.

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Word monotheism refers to belief in One God who has no partners and none other is like Him. IkOankar refers to One God who is Absolute, Transcedent and Ik-Rass (never changing). He is within the creation and outside it meaning that the creation does not contain or confine Him. We can know Him through Gurbani but no one can comprehend Him.

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Bijla Singh your post make sense from scholary perspective to discuss with islam among other thoughts.. However, gurmat adhyatam is little bit more deeper, as you are missing key component which is individual human consciousness at different spiritual development stages (progression of it/transcending of it etc) /supreme consciouness (Ik0ngkar), as you cannot separate consciousness (gurmukh bhramgyani experience with reality listed within gurbani) from its reality. Hence, this is very reason gurbani cannot be confined to vikayaran framework.

when Gurbani states that this world is false or jhooth, it does not mean in term of existence but in term of longevity. Truth is always permanent and will always exist but anything else that does not exist eternally is false. This is not to deny its existence but it cannot be called the Truth. Only God is Truth.
According to my understanding when we read gurbani, it connects to human consciousness, so for me when gurbani says world is false i perceived as that in the consciousness during naam simran/during patt- its not permanent therefore does not exist in the consciousness when surti becomes an habitual with that perception it naturally transcedent /deattached from false maya perception of world to ultimate reality of Oneness.
Every human can relate to this as we deep sleep there is no existence of world. Deep non transcedental meditation is just like that but there is pure awareness of supreme consciouness. bhai vir singh ji talks about chaitan/supreme consciousness. The truth which you are talking about is nothing but supreme consciousness awareness bliss which is all pervading in all stages or in all aspects cannot be explained but experienced.

Maha kavi singh santokh writes:
Sat chit Anand saman ikh nirgun sargun mahi.
Gyanadaikh gun esh ki jeev bikhai eh nahi
Knowledge (gian) etc are virtues of The Lord (prabhu) therefore he is in the nirgun form (without quality). These virtues are not within the human, therefore he is sargun form (with qualities, Braham with attributes), but Sat Chit Anand (existence-consciousness-bliss) is permeating in both and to whom I salute.
bhai kavi Bhai Santokh Singh ji.
Jaap sahib says-
Sad sachdanad satran Parnasi
"it does not mean in term of existence but in term of longevity"

Gurmukh during spiritual experience does not care about semantics . Gurmukh spiritual experience during shabad surat and during process of getting rid of dualism is innocent and its not a requirement to be theologically sound to be in it.


When existence of the world is discussed, Gurbani calls it real because God created it and resides in it. God cannot be present in something that has no existence or is illusory. Reality can only exist in reality. Hence, the world’s existence is real.
Reality does exist in reality but our consciousness see the world as illusory as we are in the realm of maya but supreme consciousness see it as ultimately reality- nothing but god everywhere ek jot which does not ghat or bhaad, there is nothing but ek jot through out - individual see it as illusory but bhramgyani supreme consciuoness/perception only perceived as ek jot/hari.!!

World is like a dream because it will vanish one day. It does not mean world at material level does not exist at all. This has nothing to do with spiritual development but simply understanding the context of Gurbani.
From outer sidhant scholary perspective your post make sense but from adhyatam expereince of gurmukh- if it does not exist in the supreme consciouness non transcedental meditation- it does not exist its quite simple as that that itself.Please go over and contemplate 21st ashtpadi of sukhmani sahib nirgun (supreme consciousness) all folded in non transcedental state....perception of maya/material world does not exist at all there.

This world being “Har Ka Roop” means that this world is His and not anybody else’s. No Brahma or maya can make a claim of taking a part in its creation. Only God is the Creator. Word Roop refers to creation because it has a certain materialistic form, color and shape. Word “Ka” refers to God’s property and His dominance in it. It does not refer to world being God’s aspect or God Himself. Just as we say “this pen is his” or “this house is his” we refer to the object being property of that person. Similarly, when Gurbani says this world is His Roop it refers to the Roop (creation) being His (God’s). To state that this world is aspect of God or God’s own image is false and against Gurmat monotheism. Guru Rakha
Yes its vahiguroo all along but he is in sargun, nirgun, shabad- ajap jaap equally at the end its perceived as non dual ikongkar -hence having no room for any dualism in ultimate bhramgyan stage. I think label gurmat "monotheism" has christian connations in it (truth is far away separate from individuals). Gurmat advait (non dual ikongkar-truth is here and now-present) would be little bit more appropriate term.
Rest guru maharaj knows. Anyway this has been long learning vichar. I will let parcharikhs discuss further.
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Hence, this is very reason gurbani cannot be confined to vikayaran framework.

An experience itself is not a language but when explained in any language, the words are written according to grammar. There is no language that is without its own grammatical rules. Gurbani has kanna, siharis, aunkars etc. which are part of grammar. Just like Gurbani, its viyakaran too is divine and part of revelation.

According to my understanding when we read gurbani, it connects to human consciousness

Gurbani appeals to mind for it to shed the false consciousness termed as “Ahanbudh” and adopt Bibek Budh which is the true knowledge that gives the ability to discern truth from falsehood. In this state, the world is seen as it is in a real state. Perceiving the world at different levels does not take away its existence.

when gurbani says world is false i perceived as that in the consciousness during naam simran/during patt- its not permanent therefore does not exist in the consciousness

You are simply playing with words. It makes absolutely no sense. Did God create the world? Yes He did. It follows that the world exists regardless of one’s perception. If I assume the world does not exist at one stage of consciousness (which is Vedantic thought rather than Gurmat) then how do you justify the human consciousness and Naam Simran to be real since these very things are part of the world? If the world is false then all actions and perceptions of humans are false as well. When you say world is not permanent it means it is temporary but existing but it does not follow that it is false. What does false mean? If you mean non-existence then how can you claim it is not permanent since it doesn’t exist to begin with? The world has to exist and be real for humans to do something of a value to achieve higher spiritual stage. To claim that the world is false is to claim that human actions including Naam Simran are false as well.

Deep non transcedental meditation is just like that but there is pure awareness of supreme consciouness. bhai vir singh ji talks about chaitan/supreme consciousness. The truth which you are talking about is nothing but supreme consciousness awareness bliss which is all pervading in all stages or in all aspects cannot be explained but experienced.

Deep meditation and higher experience cannot be termed as non-transcendental. A transcendental experience is beyond measure and words but a non-transcendental is its opposite. Chaintana refers to being awake and free from haumai at all times. In this state we gursikhs describe, the world is experienced as being temporary and God is actually seen pervading it. None of the gursikhs ever claim that the world ceases to exist. For example, a person like myself sees the world with haumai and I see no God present in it. This is because I have no spiritual elevation. I can only hold truth what Gurbani states but I myself have not experienced it. But if I were to rise above this state, I will experience and see what Gurbani states. Gurbani’s statements will be experienced. But never will the world cease to exist. Only God is its destroyer and its existence is not subject to human perception.

Knowledge (gian) etc are virtues of The Lord (prabhu) therefore he is in the nirgun form (without quality). These virtues are not within the human, therefore he is sargun form (with qualities, Braham with attributes), but Sat Chit Anand (existence-consciousness-bliss) is permeating in both and to whom I salute.

If this is the correct translation then it makes no sense at all. If knowledge is an attribute of God (and it is) then He cannot be without qualities because He has knowledge. Who is sargun? Is “he” referred to humans or God? If humans then it already says, humans do not have virtues. So humans cannot be sargun. If God then He cannot be without qualities which means He cannot be nirgun in literal sense. God being Sat Chit Anand tells me that He is real and existing. Therefore, there cannot exist a being that has no qualities whatsoever which means God has to have attributes to exist. Having Chit and Anand are attributes. Being Sat means to exist. Something that has no attributes is not real.

Gurmukh during spiritual experience does not care about semantics . Gurmukh spiritual experience during shabad surat and during process of getting rid of dualism is innocent and its not a requirement to be theologically sound to be in it.

Spiritual experience reveals what was hidden before but it doesn’t destroy the existence of the world. We know God is “Oat-Poat” with the world and spiritual experience reveals it to be true but doesn’t take away the existence of the world. Dualism can only occur if I say the world exists separately from God like in Islam.

Reality does exist in reality but our consciousness see the world as illusory as we are in the realm of maya but supreme consciousness see it as ultimately reality- nothing but god everywhere ek jot which does not ghat or bhaad, there is nothing but ek jot through out - individual see it as illusory but bhramgyani supreme consciuoness/perception only perceived as ek jot/hari.!!

I am not sure if you meant to say the bold part. Under the influence of maya we see the world as permanent not as illusory. We do not see God in it. Gursikhs see God pervading it and they see Ik Jot. This does not prove that the world does not exist in their perception. God and God pervading something means there has to be an existing world for God to pervade. God cannot pervade something that does not exist. How can gursikhs say God is present in the world when the world ceases to exist? Gursikhs see the world as temporary and they realize this fact. They see Ik Jot permeating everywhere which affirms Gurbani but the world does not appear as false in term of existence. Your thoughts are imbued in Vedanta of Samkara who was brutally refuted by Vivistadvaita Vedanta.

Please go over and contemplate 21st ashtpadi of sukhmani sahib nirgun (supreme consciousness) all folded in non transcedental state. It perception of maya/material world does not exist at all

By Guru Sahib’s kirpa I have gone over that Asatpadi many times including the entire Sukhmani Sahib and it is a boundless treasure. But in first 6 padas, Guru Sahib describes the state prior to world’s existence. God was all by Himself. This means even brahgyanis and their consciousness did not exist. Then He created the world (bisthaara) in 7th pada. This means world started to exist. It does not state an illusion was created or the world still does not exist. If you can kindly post the relevant verses, perhaps I can contemplate on it but without that it is shooting in dark. Prior to creation, God is referred to as purely transcendent. I personally disagree with this statement but this is what Vedanta and many Sikh scholars state.

Vaheguru is in all but Vaheguru is not all. Monotheism is a general term and every religion has its own definition of it. It is derived from Greek words mono and theos and is not Christian exclusive. I agree existence is non-dual in Gurmat but this does not mean all is God or world has no existence. Guru Rakha

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With all due respect bro (to N30), i think the reason why you think like this is because of your obsession with The Matrix LOL! (JK)

Don't mind me, I'm just a worm trying to make some noise while intellectual giants discuss!

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He is Neo

hahaha

Bhai Sahib, if I ever meet you, you better be wearing a black trench coat and black glasses! I'll wear a black fitted suit, tie, ear piece and black glasses. :nono: :lol2:

On a real I think Gurbani tells us that we are living under illusion and under influence of maya when we do not remember Vaheguru and live according to Gurmat (fighting panj kaam krodh lobh moh ahankaar). Just because a naastik doesn't recognize Vaheguru, it doesn't mean Vaheguru isn't there.

Ultimately from a katha I heard, it says a Sikh shouldn't have any desires. No desire of heaven or hell or any other dimension, our goal is just to drop back into Vaheguru like a drop that drops into an ocean because heaven/hell and all the stuff vedic stuff talks about is temporary and false. Muslim and Christian heaven can be experienced here, hell can be experienced in the cycle of reincarnation and here in the world. A GurSikh only meditates on Naam and only goal is to go back to Vaheguru where we originally came from.

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Thanks Bijla Singh for your response. I was not going to respond in this discussion further as readers can decide for themselves. However, I think i do owe you clarification to explain my on going research little more clear.

An experience itself is not a language but when explained in any language, the words are written according to grammar. There is no language that is without its own grammatical rules. Gurbani has kanna, siharis, aunkars etc. which are part of grammar. Just like Gurbani, its viyakaran too is divine and part of revelation.

Vikyaran is required to lay gurbani basic framework. However gurbani arths cannot be confined in vikayaran. Sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale in katha did multiple arths of gurbani many times from sargun context, nirgun context etc. why? Because gurbani is for all and gurbani is perceived differently at different stages some are more sargun in biirthi wise and some are more nirgun in nature as far birthi goes.. so gurbani is for all perceptions both sargun and nirgun perceptions.

Gurbani appeals to mind for it to shed the false consciousness termed as “Ahanbudh” and adopt Bibek Budh which is the true knowledge that gives the ability to discern truth from falsehood. In this state, the world is seen as it is in a real state.

Agreed. Vivek Buddh is used as aid to discriminate truth from flasehood.

Perceiving the world at different levels does not take away its existence.

Partially agreed, when one come out of deep meditation -existence appears in consciousness but its not permanent. Easiest way to explain for understanding purposes and it has worked for me for understanding purposes - when one is going to meditation one is going towards nirgun as flow everything is being folding to nirgun world existence disappears and when it comes out of it- existence appears so it appears/disappears.
Actually every human being naturally goes through three states - jagrath, suopan, sukhopat where existence appears and dis appears so there is nothing weird about it. For eg- in sukhopat avastha - deep sleep there is no perception of world existence it does not exist there .
The point i was making at the earlier posts, at the end of bhramgyani ultimate stage in bedah mukh avastha/turiya tith avastha point close body giving up- sargun perception are all folded back in nirgun, leaving no perception of its existence in its supreme consciousness. So in that regard, existence does not exist in supreme consciousness (nirankar- bhramgyani aap nirankar). Now that does not mean existence literally does not exist , it very much exist on sargun seperate plane but it existence does not exist in nirgun as we already know- in nirgun state there is no existence of world. Jaap sahib talks about nirgun state in detail along with asthpadi 21.

You are simply playing with words. It makes absolutely no sense. Did God create the world? Yes He did. It follows that the world exists regardless of one’s perception. If I assume the world does not exist at one stage of consciousness (which is Vedantic thought rather than Gurmat) then how do you justify the human consciousness and Naam Simran to be real since these very things are part of the world?

God created the world as sargun pasara. You cannot deny world does not exist in nirgun aspect. In sargun state/aspect there is world, in nirgun state/aspect there is no world perception nor existence. However, whats common between two state/aspect
~ Supreme consciousness non dual (Ikongkar) is pervading in both aspects ~
So bhramgyani who has merged in nirgun turiya tith avastha has no perception of world itself..hence world does not exist in nirgun state of supreme consciousness.

If the world is false then all actions and perceptions of humans are false as well. When you say world is not permanent it means it is temporary but existing but it does not follow that it is false. What does false mean?
If you mean non-existence then how can you claim it is not permanent since it doesn’t exist to begin with? The world has to exist and be real for humans to do something of a value to achieve higher spiritual stage. To claim that the world is false is to claim that human actions including Naam Simran are false as well.
Guru Maharaj in shalok nauvan says:
ਜਗ ਰਚਨਾ ਸਭ ਝੂਠ ਹੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਰੇ ਮੀਤ ॥
ਕਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਥਿਰੁ ਨਾ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਲੂ ਕੀ ਭੀਤਿ ॥49॥
Guru maharaj talks Jag rachna is jhoot/false. It's illusion what is illusion? maya- trai gun/subtle tendacies of maya. Real is gurbani- shabad naam gyan(turiya) of nirgun. For bhramgyani in deep maha sun samadhi close to body giving up- sargun perceptions end up being mental concepts as bhramgyani has transcendented them so there are no sargun perceptions in them.
Maya and 5 vices it's neither real nor fake its illusory connected with our human consciousness/meta reality/perception. It exist as long as human consciousness perceives it and influence by it, as soon as human consciousness perceives bhramgyan of real self, maya-5 vices tendacies is no where to be found in that human consciousness/perception. Please read this article for more indepth on illusion and turiya avastha which is out of maya-http://www.gurbani.org/articles/webart87.htm
Here are more shabad to ponder upon
ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਰਪਰ ਮਰਣਾ ॥
eindhr puree mehi sarapar maranaa ||
In the Realm of Indra, death is sure and certain.
8 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਰਹਣਾ ॥
breham puree nihachal nehee rehanaa ||
The Realm of Brahma shall not remain permanent.
8 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਿਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਾ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਕਾਲਾ ॥
siv puree kaa hoeigaa kaalaa ||
The Realm of Shiva shall also perish.
9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਾਇਆ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਬਿਤਾਲਾ ॥੨॥
thrai gun maaeiaa binas bithaalaa ||2||
The three dispositions, Maya and the demons shall vanish. ||2||
9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਗਿਰਿ ਤਰ ਧਰਣਿ ਗਗਨ ਅਰੁ ਤਾਰੇ ॥
gir thar dhharan gagan ar thaarae ||
The mountains, the trees, the earth, the sky and the stars;
9 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਰਵਿ ਸਸਿ ਪਵਣੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਨੀਰਾਰੇ ॥
rav sas pavan paavak neeraarae ||
the sun, the moon, the wind, water and fire;
10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਬਰਤ ਅਰੁ ਭੇਦਾ ॥
dhinas rain barath ar bhaedhaa ||
day and night, fasting days and their determination;
10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬਿਨਸਹਿਗੇ ਬੇਦਾ ॥੩॥
saasath sinmrith binasehigae baedhaa ||3||
the Shaastras, the Simritees and the Vedas shall pass away. ||3||
10 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਪੋਥੀ ॥
theerathh dhaev dhaehuraa pothhee ||
The sacred shrines of pilgrimage, gods, temples and holy books;
11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਮਾਲਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਸੋਚ ਪਾਕ ਹੋਤੀ ॥
maalaa thilak soch paak hothee ||
rosaries, ceremonial tilak marks on the forehead, meditative people, the pure, and the performers of burnt offerings;
11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਧੋਤੀ ਡੰਡਉਤਿ ਪਰਸਾਦਨ ਭੋਗਾ ॥
dhhothee ddanddouth parasaadhan bhogaa ||
wearing loin cloths, bowing in reverence and the enjoyment of sacred foods
11 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੈਗੋ ਸਗਲੋ ਲੋਗਾ ॥੪॥
gavan karaigo sagalo logaa ||4||
- all these, and all people, shall pass away. ||4||
12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਜਾਤਿ ਵਰਨ ਤੁਰਕ ਅਰੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ॥
jaath varan thurak ar hindhoo ||
Social classes, races, Muslims and Hindus;
12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਪਸੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਅਨਿਕ ਜੋਨਿ ਜਿੰਦੂ ॥
pas pankhee anik jon jindhoo ||
beasts, birds and the many varieties of beings and creatures;
12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਸਗਲ ਪਾਸਾਰੁ ਦੀਸੈ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
sagal paasaar dheesai paasaaraa ||
the entire world and the visible universe
12 Gaurhee Guru Arjan Dev
ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇਗੋ ਸਗਲ ਆਕਾਰਾ ॥੫॥
binas jaaeigo sagal aakaaraa ||5||
- all forms of existence shall pass away. ||5||
Bazigar Jasie Baazi Paie
Nana Roop Bhek Dekhlaie
Sang Utar Thaimo Pasara
Tab Ikaie Ikankara ||
Kavan Roop Dristio Binasio
Kaithe Gayoo Oh Kath Dhayo ||
Jal Tai Utaie Anakh Taranga
Kanakh bhookaie Bahu ranga
Bij Bij Dekho Bahu Parkara
Phul Pakaie Taie Ikankara ||
Sahet Gatava Mein Ek Akash
Ghat Footaie Ohi Pargas ||
And famous one that we discussed long time ago:
ਉਤਪਤਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ (117)
Creation and destruction happen through the Shabad.
Through the Shabad, creation happens again.
Now this one is important one, shabad may be different we all meditate (mool mantar and gurmantar) but contemplative end gyan is same. We cannot confine this shabad above to only outside creation and destruction happening in soo many years as whatever is outside and its inside.
Reconcile shabad -
ਉਤਪਤਿ ਪਰਲਉ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ ਸਬਦੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ (117) with
Creation and destruction happen through the Shabad.
Through the Shabad, creation happens again.
ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡੇ ਸੋਈ ਪਿੰਡੇ ਜੋ ਖੋਜੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
Jo Brehamanddae Soee Pinddae Jo Khojai So Paavai ||
जो ब्रहमंडे सोई पिंडे जो खोजै सो पावै ॥
The One who pervades the Universe also dwells in the body; whoever seeks, finds there.
Whatever is outside is also inside. so we cannot confine shabads talking about outer destruction to only outside everything is inter-connected.

If you mean non-existence then how can you claim it is not permanent since it doesn’t exist to begin with?

How can jag rachna sabh jhoot-false be premanent? Acknowledging the kheel of bazigaar-illusion making something appear and disappear hardly means -permanent. how could that be reality? World just appears and disappears in our consciousness as world is no where to be found in our deep sleep - non existence. In order to be permanent existence- it has to be in all three states equally but it does not exist in deep sleep nor its exist sun samadhi of bhramgyani, you will find various examples of it in gurbani.

Deep meditation and higher experience cannot be termed as non-transcendental. A transcendental experience is beyond measure and words but a non-transcendental is its opposite.

Higher experience is transcedental and deep meditation sun smadhi is non transcendental meditation as there is nothing else to transcendent to. Many shabad surat upasakhs wrap their head around dasam dwara- caught up in expereince and confine akaal in it making that as ultimate reality leaving notions of dualism still behind/subtle sense of individuality denoting they are still subtle forms of dualism left fish in a ocean scenario - see 4th type of sargun mukhti listed in gurbani.

Chaintana refers to being awake and free from haumai at all times. In this state we gursikhs describe, the world is experienced as being temporary and God is actually seen pervading it. None of the gursikhs ever claim that the world ceases to exist.

Perceiving the world at different levels/planes at various sargun state does not mean its ultimate reality of bhramgyan where there is no perception of world eg- maha sun samadhi (turiya avastha).. World cease to exist in its consciousness because consciousness is merged in nirgun and there is no world in nirgun and world is called sargun pasara as per gurbani.

For example, a person like myself sees the world with haumai and I see no God present in it. This is because I have no spiritual elevation. I can only hold truth what Gurbani states but I myself have not experienced it. But if I were to rise above this state, I will experience and see what Gurbani states. Gurbani’s statements will be experienced. But never will the world cease to exist. Only God is its destroyer and its existence is not subject to human perception.
Human goes through world non existence every day in sukhopat avastha- deep sleep. I beleive you see sikhi concept as separate contrast concepts from human perception thats good to explain theology in inter faith sessions but not good in spirituality as gurbani is perceived by human perception and its inner journey.

I am not sure if you meant to say the bold part. Under the influence of maya we see the world as permanent not as illusory. We do not see God in it. Gursikhs see God pervading it and they see Ik Jot. This does not prove that the world does not exist in their perception. God and God pervading something means there has to be an existing world for God to pervade. God cannot pervade something that does not exist.

When gursikhs see god pervading it and they see ik jot in this pasara, they see non dual supreme consciousness - Ikongkar which is never changing- atal in sargun pasara not ikongkar being confined in sargun pasara. There is huge difference.

How can gursikhs say God is present in the world when the world ceases to exist?

Because God is never changing its always there as supreme consciousness awareness bliss but world appears and disappears not only world is subjected to time(shabad parloa four types of destruction parloa/kaal) but world is no where to been seen in our human deep sleep state and bhramgyani maha sun samadhi at turiya avastha.

Your thoughts are imbued in Vedanta of Samkara who was brutally refuted by Vivistadvaita Vedanta.

Gurmat is not raw form of vedanta..Gurmat have - advait positions ( ekta of atma-paratma ) which is maintained and hold in gurbani clearly*. Gurmat blends bhagti, shabad surat, gyan of self aspects/sadhana-nirgun upasana- beautifully and splendidlly ..I would say gurmat is more aligned with sufism, and Vishishatdvaita Vedanta (Qualified Advait) than it is from raw form of vedanta sanchkarcharya.
Gurmat uses bhagti, shabad surat, gyan of self aspects as updesh or sadhana for various different sikhs sitting at various different spiritual development stages.
*Man tu jot saroop hai apna mool painchain
Gyan Parbodh ਪਾਧੜੀ ਛੰਦ ॥
पाधड़ी छंद ॥
PAADHRAI STANZA
ਤ੍ਵ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
त्व प्रसादि ॥
BY THY GRACE
ਦਿਨ ਅਜਬ ਏਕ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਅਨਭਉ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਹਦ ਅਕਾਮ ॥
दिन अजब एक आतमा राम ॥ अनभउ सरूप अनहद अकाम ॥
On a day the curious soul (asked): The infinite and Desire less Lord, the Intuitive Entity.
ਅਨਛਿੱਜ ਤੇਜ ਆਜਾਨ ਬਾਹੁ ॥ ਰਾਜਾਨ ਰਾਜੁ ਸਾਹਾਨ ਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥੧੨੬॥
अनछि्ज तेज आजान बाहु ॥ राजान राजु साहान साहु ॥१॥१२६॥
Of everlasting Glory and long-armed; the King of kings and Emperor of emperors.1.126.
ਉਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥
उचरिओ आतमा परातमा संग ॥ उतभुज सरूप अबिगत अभंग ॥
The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible;
ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥
इह कउन आहि आतमा सरूप ॥ जिह अमित तेज अतिभूति बिभूति ॥२॥१२७॥
What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127.
ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥
परातमा बाच ॥
The Higher Soul said:
ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥
यहि ब्रहम आहि आतमा राम ॥ जिह अमित तेजि अबिगत अकाम ॥
This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless.
ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥
जिह भेद भरम नहीं करम काल ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र सरबा दिआल ॥३॥१२८॥
Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228.
ਡੋਬਿਓ ਨ ਡੁਬੈ ਸੋਖਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਟਿਓ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਨ ਬਾਰਿਯੋ ਬਰਾਇ ॥
डोबिओ न डुबै सोखिओ न जाइ ॥ कटिओ न कटै न बारियो बराइ ॥
It is neither drowned nor soaked; It can neither be chopped nor burnt.
ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਸਤ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਤ ਪਾਤ ॥੪॥੧੨੯॥
छिजै न नैक सत ससत्र पात ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र नहीं जात पात ॥४॥१२९॥
It cannot be assailed by the blow of weapon; It hath neither an enemy nor a friend, neither caste not lineage.4.129.
ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਹੰਸ ਸਤ ਸਤ ਪ੍ਰਘਾਇ ॥ ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਖੰਡਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सत्र सहंस सत सत प्रघाइ ॥ छिजै न नैक खंडिओ न जाइ ॥
By the blow of thousands of enemies, It is neither wasted away nor fragmented.
ਨਹੀ ਜਰੈ ਨੈਕ ਪਾਵਕ ਮੰਝਾਰ ॥ ਬੋਰੈ ਨ ਸਿੰਧ ਸੋਖੈ ਨ ਬਯਾਰ ॥੫॥੧੩੦॥
नही जरै नैक पावक मंझार ॥ बोरै न सिंध सोखै न बयार ॥५॥१३०॥
It is not burnt even in the fire. It is neither drowned in the sea nor soaked by the air.5.13
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hahaha

Bhai Sahib, if I ever meet you, you better be wearing a black trench coat and black glasses! I'll wear a black fitted suit, tie, ear piece and black glasses. :nono: :lol2:

Yaar aaja blue pill kai red pil kahnil? Apna sathi johnny rambo, onlyfive kithaa ? tei mehtab sion? ..uhnuo bhi saade...tuhadi lour pehni menu matrix 4 chh,.. anderson maha maya maha yudh karna :p

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