Demise Of Punjabi Language In Pakistan

[chatanga]

On the one hand the Pak Punjabis look down on the mohajirs (Pakistanis originally from Delhi, UP) as bhaiyas and on the other hand they take their language.

an excellent observation.

[Rayjay]

Well to be fair most of Haryana speaks their own language (Haryanvi) and so does Himachal Pradesh (Pahari)

It's not like they were speaking the same language you hear in Jallandhar or Amritsar.

Not really, the languages you are reffering to are closely related to Punjabi. They are Punjabi but a slightly different dialect. Its like saying scousers speak thier own languaage because its ot the same english you hear in London.

..and that doesn't change the fact that the regions heritage is Punjabi.

They were seperated from Punjab to create a hindi speaking people so that a punjabi seperatists could not claim these regions too, as Himachal borders Kashmir, so the Gov is intentially trying to transition the people to Hindi speakers.

the point i'm making is that, muslims, hindu's, sikhs...etc of Punjabi descent want to claim either thier religion or their country as their Identity, indian or pakistani, when really our ethnicity/Identity is PUNJABI!!! Thats the race we belong to and thats our national identity and somewhere between the india pakistan partition we have lost sight of that. I beleive we should strengthen our Identity as punjabi's over the country or religion we belong to.

[AJ111]

It's fashionable to blame it all on the Indian government, but it was the Punjabi Suba and Khalistani movements that did everything possible to destroy the pan-Punjabi identity by always fighting for Sikh separatism and violently alienating and frightening the Punjabi hindus. Do you think Haryana and Himachal would want to be associated with that ?

The "Republic of Punjab" was killed.

[Jonny101]

It's fashionable to blame it all on the Indian government, but it was the Punjabi Suba and Khalistani movements that did everything possible to destroy the pan-Punjabi identity by always fighting for Sikh separatism and violently alienating and frightening the Punjabi hindus. Do you think Haryana and Himachal would want to be associated with that ?

The "Republic of Punjab" was killed.

AJ111 Jee you have your history all mixed up. The Khalistan movement was a reaction to operation bluestar. Punjabi Suba movement which started decades earlier had nothing to do with it. The Punjabi Suba movement was a peaceful language rights movement, then please explain how is it a Sikh separatist movement? If Punjabi language was given it's due status in Punjab (haryana and Himachal) back then, still Hindus would have been ruling it since they were the demographic majority, so your "Sikh seperatist" remark falls flat on it's face.

On the contrast it was the Hindus(and Jains) of Punjab who opposed Punjabi language in favour of Hindi even though most at the time could barely speak it! So much for your "pan Punjabi identity". This was a direct betrayed to Punjab and Punjabi language by Hindus and Jains. They equated Punjabi language as being a Sikh language and Hindi as a Hindu language just as Muslims of Pakistan betrayed their mother tongue Punjabi in favour of urdu which they saw as being an Islamic language. Due to this opposition by Punjabi Hindus, they (the Hindus) even separated Himachal and Haryana from Punjab. So it is the Hindus who were the separatists not the Sikhs.

As if partitioning Punjab wasn't enough for Hindus and Jains, other measures of discrimination against Punjab were supported by the Hindus such as the theft of Punjab's river waters. Sikhs would peacefully protest this, but Punjabi Hindus would oppose them and support Haryana's claim just to oppose the Sikhs. Then when peaceful Sikh protesters were murdered in 1978 by the Nirankaris, prominent Punjabi Hindus like Lala Jagat Narayan came out in open support of the Nirankars just to oppose the Sikhs. The murderers of the SIkhs went scott free. Up until then Sikhs were peaceful never killing their oppressors, but still Sikhs were labelled agents of Pakistan by the Hindu dominated press, killers of Sikhs were protected by the government and fully supported by the Punjabi Hindu press.

ਤੁਮ ਕਰੋ ਜ਼ੁਲਮ ਤੋ ਵੋਹ ਸਰਕਾਰੀ ਹੈ

ਹਮ ਕਰੇਂ ਫਰਯਾਦ ਤੋ ਵੋਹ ਗਦਾਰੀ ਹੈ

meaning if Hindus oppose Sikhs, betray Punjabi language, kill Sikhs, then it is perfectly fine and even considered patriotic, but if Sikhs do a request by peacefully protesting for their rights, then it is considered a betrayal by the Punjabi Hindus. Vah! This is the so called secular Raaj of the Hindus.

It is only when Sikhs were beginning to get murdered in 1978 that Sikhs began to arm themselves in order to defend their lives because Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee has written in Zaffar Nama that when all peaceful means have failed, then it is justified for Sikhs to pick up the sword to defend themselves.

[AJ111]

I am ready to be corrected - but my readings about the Punjabi Suba movement was that it was a completely Sikh movement not a pan-Punjabi movement. The other groups were alienated to the extent of claiming Hindi as their mother tongue although they never spoke it. The mainly Sikh agenda of the movement led to disunity and Punjabi being unfairly associated only with Sikhs and not the whole population.

In other states e.g. Tamil Nadu , no one would ever challenge their local language status because people of those states were united on the topic irrespective of their religions.

[Jonny101]

I am ready to be corrected - but my readings about the Punjabi Suba movement was that it was a completely Sikh movement not a pan-Punjabi movement. The other groups were alienated to the extent of claiming Hindi as their mother tongue although they never spoke it. The mainly Sikh agenda of the movement led to disunity and Punjabi being unfairly associated only with Sikhs and not the whole population.

In other states e.g. Tamil Nadu , no one would ever challenge their local language status because people of those states were united on the topic irrespective of their religions.

Tell me Bhaaji, how is Punjabi language a Sikh agenda? and before the Khalistan movement, how was the Sikh agenda anti India? Before 1984, Sikhs were without a doubt THE MOST patriotic Indians who literally sacrificed their Tann, Mann, Dhann(body, mind and wealth) for India's independence and protected it's integrity during partition and wars with Pakistan with their own blood. Sikhs had defended India like no one else did against invaders, but Hindus of Punjab are the ones who thought that the Islamic threat is finished so they don't need Sikhs anymore. They began to regard Sikhs as the new enemy within and opposed Sikhs every chance they got. And Punjab's territorial integrity and language was the casualty of this opposition to the Sikhs by the Hindus. If Punjabi Language was implemented, Hindus had nothing to lose, they would still be ruling Punjab since Sikhs were still the minority.

Punjabi language movement had nothing to do with Sikhi. But Sikhs took to the cause of the Punjabi language just as Tamils, Bengalis and other ethnicity took to their language rights because if Sikhs didn't, then no one else would. But in all those other movements, no one from their own ethnicity opposed them. But in the case of Punjab, our own Punjab brothers i.e. Hindus had opposed Sikhs only because they deemed Punjabi language as being a Sikh language and declared Hindi as the language of the Hindus. This disgraceful move(actually betrayed) by the Punjabi Hindus even confused many non-Punjabi Hindus from other states as to why Punjabi Hindus were disowning their own mother tongue as stated by Swami Subramanian. Even Hindu nationalist leaders from Maharashtra when going on tours to Punjab would be confused as to how someone can oppose their own mother tongue in favour of a language that they cannot even properly speak.

Hindus and Muslims of Punjab both are guilty of betraying their mother tongue. Even today when you go to Punjab, in the cities it is very common to see Punjabi Hindus speaking Hindi with their children, same thing in Pakistan's Punjab where Punjabi Muslims will speak Urdu with their children.

[Hindustani]

Tell me Bhaaji, how is Punjabi language a Sikh agenda? and before the Khalistan movement, how was the Sikh agenda anti India? Before 1984, Sikhs were without a doubt THE MOST patriotic Indians who literally sacrificed their Tann, Mann, Dhann(body, mind and wealth) for India's independence and protected it's integrity during partition and wars with Pakistan with their own blood. Sikhs had defended India like no one else did against invaders, but Hindus of Punjab are the ones who thought that the Islamic threat is finished so they don't need Sikhs anymore. They began to regard Sikhs as the new enemy within and opposed Sikhs every chance they got. And Punjab's territorial integrity and language was the casualty of this opposition to the Sikhs by the Hindus. If Punjabi Language was implemented, Hindus had nothing to lose, they would still be ruling Punjab since Sikhs were still the minority.

Punjabi language movement had nothing to do with Sikhi. But Sikhs took to the cause of the Punjabi language just as Tamils, Bengalis and other ethnicity took to their language rights because if Sikhs didn't, then no one else would. But in all those other movements, no one from their own ethnicity opposed them. But in the case of Punjab, our own Punjab brothers i.e. Hindus had opposed Sikhs only because they deemed Punjabi language as being a Sikh language and declared Hindi as the language of the Hindus. This disgraceful move(actually betrayed) by the Punjabi Hindus even confused many non-Punjabi Hindus from other states as to why Punjabi Hindus were disowning their own mother tongue as stated by Swami Subramanian. Even Hindu nationalist leaders from Maharashtra when going on tours to Punjab would be confused as to how someone can oppose their own mother tongue in favour of a language that they cannot even properly speak.

Hindus and Muslims of Punjab both are guilty of betraying their mother tongue. Even today when you go to Punjab, in the cities it is very common to see Punjabi Hindus speaking Hindi with their children, same thing in Pakistan's Punjab where Punjabi Muslims will speak Urdu with their children. This is all due to an inferiority complex that they are suffering from.

The main sticking point between the two communities, 3 if you include moslems was not the punjabi language itself which was spoken by all but the script being proposed. The three communities have different scripts for the same language, believe it or not.

Sikhs (Gurmukhi)

Hindus (Devangiri)

Muslims (Shahmukhi)

Maybe somebody who has more knowledge can shed some light..

[Hindustani]

The script being proposed was Gurmukhi which is closely related to Sikhism, the Moslems with Shahmukhi is more closely related and written in the arabic or persian way. And I believe the Devangiri way is closer to hindi or sanskrit?

[Jonny101]

The script being proposed was Gurmukhi which is closely related to Sikhism, the Moslems with Shahmukhi is more closely related and written in the arabic or persian way. And I believe the Devangiri way is closer to hindi or sanskrit?

That only became the sticking point later in the movement. Earlier it is the sheer opposition to Punjabi language. Later they tried to make a compromise by allowing Punjabi along with Hindi be given dual status in Punjab, but even then Punjabi was to be taught and written in Dev Nagri script. This was unacceptable since many sounds in the Punjabi language cannot be pronounced using have Dev Nagri script but are only found in Gurmukhi. Furthermore, there has never been a historic precedent of Punjabi language been written in Dev Nagri so one must ask why Punjabi Hindu leadership which was opposed to Punjabi language to begin with but end up later compromising but demand Punjabi be written in Dev Nagri which does not contain all the sounds of the Punjabi language and oppose Gurmukhi which is perfectly suited for Punjabi language.

[Hindustani]

Not really, the languages you are reffering to are closely related to Punjabi. They are Punjabi but a slightly different dialect. Its like saying scousers speak thier own languaage because its ot the same english you hear in London.

..and that doesn't change the fact that the regions heritage is Punjabi.

They were seperated from Punjab to create a hindi speaking people so that a punjabi seperatists could not claim these regions too, as Himachal borders Kashmir, so the Gov is intentially trying to transition the people to Hindi speakers.

the point i'm making is that, muslims, hindu's, sikhs...etc of Punjabi descent want to claim either thier religion or their country as their Identity, indian or pakistani, when really our ethnicity/Identity is PUNJABI!!! Thats the race we belong to and thats our national identity and somewhere between the india pakistan partition we have lost sight of that. I beleive we should strengthen our Identity as punjabi's over the country or religion we belong to.

I am reading on the net that Fateh Singh of the Akali Dal was the first to propose a trifurcation of the state in the 1950s. The GOI rejected it until 1966...