Hindus Wearing The Kara

[simran345]

I'm not the one fooling myself. It is still Gurbani Gurbani is Guru ki Vaani, do you think Jaap Sahib isn't Gurbani then because it is from Sri Dasam Granth Maharaj???????

So you don't call our temple in Amritsar Sri Hari Mandir?? That is the name.

Then why are you calling Harmandir Sahib a temple, why don't you call it Gurdwara, ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਾ (gateway to the Guru)?

[Quantavius]

I don't have any motivations here, I am just replying to replies here. You should go educate yourself on what Gurbani means as well.

Definition:

Gurbani is a compound word composed of:

• Gur meaning guide or enlightener.
• Bani meaning word.

Gurbani refers to the text of Sikhism's holy scripture, or the word ofGuru Granth Sahib. Sikhs revere the scripture of the Granth as their everlasting guru and consider Gurbani the means of enlightenment and salvation. The scripture of Guru Granth was preceded as guru by ten spiritual masters or gurus.

http://sikhism.about.com/od/glossary/g/Gurbani.htm

It appears that you're the one who sorely needs an education.

[Kira]

I'm not saying any of that, you are the one stating those things on my behalf when I never said those lol.

No you simply change your thoughts and anything you don't like on a whim. You have a line of thought when someone follows it, you backtrack and change it all over again. Rather than consulting Gurbani you literally just consult an average human being (by the sounds of it your sangat are very Pendu in thinking and seem to enjoy mixing rancid parts into Sikhism).

o that is all I am trying to say that it is our atma that is dharmic and not our shareer, so who cares if our shareer/vehicle has a caste. Just like if you wear clothes and go somewhere your clothes do have a brand, but it's your atma inside which is you and makes decisions. Converying a point

It;s pretty obvious to everyone here you're avoiding the obvious question if the Guru sahib had a caste or not. Just answer it lmao. You're brand argument and clothes fall short as you can change you're clothes and you're brand. You're the one asserting that Akal Purkh wants the world to be in castes, now prove it. I can prove Akal Purkh wants/doesn't want who is blessed with hair or not. I can prove that Akal Purkh assigns a gender to everyone. Because it's all written there in Gurbani and then to an even less lower study it exists in science. NOW you prove that he wants everyone to have a caste.

ANSWER THE QUESTION DID GURU SAHIB HAVE A CASTE OR NOT. YES OR NO.

an't the same be said for other straightforward lines in Gurbani? Are you deciding to pick and choose what lines are literal and what ones are metephorical?

Except gurbani isn't one little pixel or one spec of paint on a painting. IT'S A MASSIVE PORTRAIT. Something you fail to comphrehend. Gurbani isn't just "lets recite it and that's me following Guru Sahib's teaching" it's contemplating it, understanding it and then abiding by it. That's why pauses exist in Gurbani. That's why you need to research as much as you can and then come to a logical conclusion. EVEN the straight forward lines have a complexity behind it. The basic messages of Gurbani are repeated and echoed all through the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Literally every single Amrit Sanchar in the world states the caste is discarded, the whole point of it is you're literally "killed" and reborn as a Pure being, you just addressed Caste as "maya" are you now going to doubt Amrit Sanchar and start mixing Maya into it lmao. But you as usual think you know better than them and Guru Sahib.

So what, I'd believe anything my Sri Guru ji would say.

Correction- you'll believe whatever some random person wearing a Phug and a beard will tell you. You'll take their word as law and then slowly start changing everything so it fits said view.

To the best of my knowledge

Sri Dasam Granth Ji was not written by Guruji Maharaj nor did Guruji Maharaj bestow it Guruship. It was only compiled much later. There is a thread on this in this very forum. From what I know it is rejected by Akal Takth and majority of panth.

Strictly speaking, Gurbani is from SGGS Ji, period, no arguments. We may refer to other writings however authority comes from SGGS Ji. There is NO argument on this! That is why Guru Gobind Singh Ji bestowed Guruship to SGGS Ji precisely to avoid the type of arguments you are having now with everybody. If one can look elsewhere for rule/guidance on Sikhism, what was the point of bestowing Guruship to SGGS Ji Maharaj in the first place?

I'm sorry but there is simply no argument on this. IMHO, if you believe you can obtain teachings of Sikhism outside of SGGS Ji Maharaj, you are not a Sikh anymore. Stop fooling yourself.

IMHO I suspect you're a Hindu who is trying very hard to bridge Sikhism with Hinduism using material that is outside of SGGS Ji Maharaj. Why are you doing this? What is your motivation? Seriously. If you want to be a Hindu, go to a Mandir and be a Hindu to your hearts content. Why come to Sikhism and then try to 'Hindunize' Sikhism? You are obviously lost. Nobody is stopping you from practicing Hinduism. You are obviously very proud of your caste. So go to a Mandir and hang out at Hindu forums, they can cater to your spiritual needs.

PS I have never heard a single Sikh who referred to a Gurdwara and Mandir and believes they can wash away by dipping in Ganges river, not a single one, and I'm well travelled. LOL!

Not an expert but a couple of points bro.

The Dasam Granth was complied much later as you rightfully stated by Bhai Mani Singh Ji with the help of Mata Sundri Ji. The Bani was complied into one Bir, the exact purpose of it is unknown but the point was to simply collect all of the Bani of the 10th Master.

There's also a bit of Debate about a small portion of the Guru Granth Sahib which may have been attributed to the 10th Master. I'm not 100% sure about that but it was due to tenth being used instead of 9th in reference to Guru Tegh Bahadhur Ji.

The main reason many Sikhs have a sort of guarded Approach to the Dasam Granth was due to some rather unorthodox things being mentioned within it. I've not read it all but I have heard there are aspects of some rather well strange things I guess for us, being inside it. Again I'm not an expert and I definetely don't want to dishonour Guru Sahib's bani should it be. So I do apologize from the bottom of my heart to Maharaj if i've said anything stupid.

Some bani such as jaap Sahib and others were easier to get. As in a letter to Mata Sundri Ji, Bhai mani Singh explains how gathering some others was proving to be a challenge.

But you're 100% right that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Guru. As Such our Primary source of information should always be Guru Granth Sahib Ji and not the Dasam Granth. The point of the Dasam Granth (i feel anyways) was to add extra information for Sikhs from what I gathered. retell well known legends from a Sikhism point of view. I can only speculate but Bhai Mani Singh Ji and Mata Sundri didn't want that Bani being lost and corrupted. That's my thoughts on it, I could be entirely wrong. There was a similar story about when Guru arjun Dev Ji was compiling and gathering the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. To stop people corrupting Gurbani and providing the Panth with a Granth. Even back then Guru Sahib said that the Adi Granth (Guru granth Sahib ji, feel the need to add this here so I don't feel like im disrespecting Guru Sahib) was treated with so much respect that Guru arjun Dev Ji refused to ride horseback but instead walked beside the Pothi as they were being carried. Guru Sahib will always,always have an answer for everything.

Any teachings that are totally contradictory to Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be investigated. Nothing in any bani i've come across has done that. Individuals however are a different story.

Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Ji said something totally amazing about the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

That Guru Sahib left out one thing. He left out falsehood from it from he compiled it.

[Quantavius]

Nope, it means Guru ki Vani aka anything they say or write. Is Sri, Jaap Sahib not Gurbani then? It is Gurbani!! Just because it is written outside of SGGSji doesn't mean it isn't Gurbani. Especially since we all know who the author is of the Sri Dasam Granth Maharaj that it is precisely Gurbani.

Once again, you're wrong.

BTW Brahm Kavach wasn't written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. So you can give it a rest now. Check mate Hindu. LOL!

[Quantavius]

Kira

Please refer to this thread on Dasam Granth

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/186-dasam-granth-a-historical-perspective/

Other then Akaal Ustat, Jaap Sahib and a few other prayers, I do not believe Sri Dasam Granth Ji was created by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Personally I've never seen any Gurdwara having it. At this point, I do not believe in it. Secondly it is being used as a vehicle by Hindus such as Preet to align Sikhism with Hinduism.

IMHO we Sikhs should completely reject Sri Dasam Granth Ji.

[Balkaar]

Kira

Please refer to this thread on Dasam Granth

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/186-dasam-granth-a-historical-perspective/

Other then Akaal Ustat, Jaap Sahib and a few other prayers, I do not believe Sri Dasam Granth Ji was created by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Personally I've never seen any Gurdwara having it. At this point, I do not believe in it. Secondly it is being used as a vehicle by Hindus such as Preet to align Sikhism with Hinduism.

IMHO we Sikhs should completely reject Sri Dasam Granth Ji.

I don't agree.

When the Khalsa Panth was created there could no longer be any doubt that Sikhs were not Hindus. The Khalsa was the embodiment of Bir Ras, and Sri Dasam Granth is the Granth of Bir Ras.

What about it leads you to believe that it is being directed with nefarious purpose by Hindus? The tales of the Hindu Gods? When Martin Luther King was advocating civil rights in America, he referred to the Bible for the purposes of metaphor because it was the only book he could be sure his entire audience had read. Dashmesh Pita deployed the stories of the demigods as a reference point, because all his Sikhs would have already been somewhat familiar with them. These fables permeated the folklore of the subcontinent.

As for Charitropakhyaan, the section to which people most commonly take issue, talking about the dangers of sex will tend to necessitate talking about sex. Try talking about how unhealthy cigarettes are without mentioning cigarettes, it cannot be done.

[Quantavius]

I don't agree.

When the Khalsa Panth was created there could no longer be any doubt that Sikhs were not Hindus. The Khalsa was the embodiment of Bir Ras, and Sri Dasam Granth is the Granth of Bir Ras.

What about it leads you to believe that it is being directed with nefarious purpose by Hindus? The tales of the Hindu Gods? When Martin Luther King was advocating civil rights in America, he referred to the Bible for the purposes of metaphor because it was the only book he could be sure his entire audience had read. Dashmesh Pita deployed the stories of the demigods as a reference point, because all his Sikhs would have already been somewhat familiar with them. These fables permeated the folklore of the subcontinent.

As for Charitropakhyaan, the section to which people most commonly take issue, talking about the dangers of sex will tend to necessitate talking about sex. Try talking about how unhealthy cigarettes are without mentioning cigarettes, it cannot be done.

Lets be brutally honest. Do you honestly believe Guru Gobind Singh Ji sanctioned those sexual tales? C'mon dude! Name me a single moment in the anals of Sikh history where any of our Gurus talk about sex. And I'm talking about explixit sex not metaphors. BTW nowhere does it state the 'dangers' of sex. From what little I've read, it actually promotes it.

Secondly, Sikhs did not start fighting and became martial during Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. It started during Guru Hargobind Singh Ji's time. How did we manage then without Bir Ras of Dasam Granth? This is all nonsense and you bloody well know it.

Martin Luther King was no Guru nor was he a creator of any religion. Please stop comparing him to our Gurus.

This is why I say it's pointless to take amrit. Despite taking amrit, so many Sikhs like yourself are spiritually lost. You're still unable to distinguish right from wrong.

[Balkaar]

Lets be brutally honest. Do you honestly believe Guru Gobind Singh Ji sanctioned those sexual tales? C'mon dude! Name me a single moment in the anals of Sikh history where any of our Gurus talk about sex. And I'm talking about explixit sex not metaphors. BTW nowhere does it state the 'dangers' of sex. From what little I've read, it actually promotes it.

Secondly, Sikhs did not start fighting and became martial during Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. It started during Guru Hargobind Singh Ji's time. How did we manage then without Bir Ras of Dasam Granth? This is all nonsense and you bloody well know it.

Martin Luther King was no Guru nor was he a creator of any religion. Please stop comparing him to our Gurus.

This is why I say it's pointless to take amrit. Despite taking amrit, so many Sikhs like yourself are spiritually lost. You're still unable to distinguish right from wrong.

I believe Guru Ji wrote these tales, yes. If you've only read a little I'd advise you to read some more of it before you issue a resounding condemnation. I don't think it promotes sexual abandon in the slightest. Charitropakhyaan isn't some gaudy celebration of debauchery, something bad always happens because of the lust between the characters involved. Each tale comes equipped with a moral.

The point about Bir Ras was a poor one, reading it back.

Wasn't comparing the men Quantavius, only their methods in this instance.

Sri Dasam Granth has enriched my life. I don't see how my belief that it is authentic means I'm stumbling blindly in a spiritual wilderness. Some of the greatest Gursikhs in history, men far more accomplished in matters of the spiritual than you or I, believed in the Tenth King's Bani. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale said "consider him a naastik and a bemukh, he who does not believe in Bachittar Natak (Guru Gobind Singh's autobiography in Dasam Granth) from the rasna of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib". Was Sant Ji spiritually lost because he had faith in Sri Dasam Granth?

[Quantavius]

I believe Guru Ji wrote these tales, yes. If you've only read a little I'd advise you to read some more of it before you issue a resounding condemnation. I don't think it promotes sexual abandon in the slightest. Charitropakhyaan isn't some gaudy celebration of debauchery, something bad always happens because of the lust between the characters involved. Each tale comes equipped with a moral.

The point about Bir Ras was a poor one, reading it back.

Wasn't comparing the men Quantavius, only their methods in this instance.

Sri Dasam Granth has enriched my life. I don't see how my belief that it is authentic means I'm stumbling blindly in a spiritual wilderness. Some of the greatest Gursikhs in history, men far more accomplished in matters of the spiritual than you or I, believed in the Tenth King's Bani. Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale said "consider him a naastik and a bemukh, he who does not believe in Bachittar Natak (Guru Gobind Singh's autobiography in Dasam Granth) from the rasna of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib". Was Sant Ji spiritually lost because he had faith in Sri Dasam Granth?

In Sikhism, you are supposed to think for yourself and not parrot and promote what some Baba (with all due respect) said. You're not supposed to be a sheep.

Why don't you take one of these tales, start a thread and impart this knowledge. Tell us what it really means.

[Balkaar]

In Sikhism, you are supposed to think for yourself and not parrot and promote what some Baba (with all due respect) said. You're not supposed to be a sheep.

Why don't you take one of these tales, start a thread and impart this knowledge. Tell us what it really means.

I'll tell you one of the stories here.

In the 16th Charitar of Sri Charitropakhyaan, the tale of a Raja from the banks of the Sutlej is related. A beautiful prostitute named Ladhia fell in love with him, he being a man renowned for his principle and strict adherence to dharam, and began to plan ways to seduce him. The Raja used to receive holy men at his court, so she attired herself as a Jogini of Gorakhnath, and spread word that she was proficient in the working of magical charms. Word soon reached the maharaja, and he sent one of his manservants to fetch her in order that they could speak. She agreed, on the condition that the ruler come to her, alone. The Raja came to her abode at midnight, to find her draped in sensual garb. She began to blackmail him, saying that unless he fulfilled her sexual wiles she would cry 'thief!' and have him beaten by the village bumpkins. She underestimated the cunning of the man. He pretended to acquiesce, and she was so overwhelmed with lustful exaltation that she thought nothing of his request that she prepare a drink made with cannabis, opium and alcohol. He bid her drink it, and she did, and promptly fell unconscious upon her bed. The Maharaja left sixty coins beside her bed, and made his escape.

The moral of the story is that one's dharam is of paramount importance. Even questionable measures such as lying may have to be deployed in its defense - things aren't necessarily black and white. Premarital sex and intercourse with prostitutes are violations of this dharm. Moreover, the Maharaja could have shamed and scorned the woman, but he left her money because, even though the lie was necessary for his flight, he had wronged her by deceiving her (Karma, everything that you reap, you will sow), and he also pitied the wretched woman. The other moral therefore is forgiveness and compassion.

This is a valuable and instructive tale, if you're open minded. I suspect that the people who are disgusted by it react to it in the way that they do because they're secretly aroused, and they choose to direct the unceremonious revulsion they feel towards themselves for being so filthy-minded onto the Tenth King's Bani to expiate their own guilt. The problem is these readers and their polluted minds, not the Bani itself.

Normally, I'd have been concerned that this was diverting the thread off topic. However its been off topic for at least 10 pages now, what's one more? lol