1699 Vaisakhi-eye-witness Account By A Mughal Spy!

[InderjitS 1,244]

To think that Guru Sahib did Jhatka of bakriaan is simply hilarious. If there are no eye witness accounts of the heads actually being separated, there also are no accounts of anyone mentioning the bleating goats. When I was studying R.E in school and came across the pages where it mentioned goats I even recall discussing with the teacher that this was plain wrong. She did not of course believe a word I said.

[Jonny101 4,386]

I haven't heard of this Granth before, but I ought to read it before I pass judgement. Do you know where I can find a full copy?

I have heard that like the Gur Kian Sakhian of Bhatt Vahis this Granth is also a recently discovered Granth. What is interesting is that both this Granth and Gur Kian Sakhia confirm that Jaap Sahib, Savaiya and Chaupi Sahib was read in 1699. This completely blows off the lid of the lies being spread by the heretics missionaries who say there is no historic contemporary proof these Dasam Bani were read in 1699.

[InderjitS 1,244]

Guru Ji is certainly capable of miraculous feats, but is also wise enough to use such powers sparingly. Guru Sahib's task in 1699 was to turn a community of sparrows into hawks, so I'm not surprised that he moderated his use of miracles and relied on his human abilities in order to show the new Khalsa Sikhs that even mortal bodies were capable of great things. Guru Sahib could have called forth divine powers to destroy the enemies assaulting him and his Sikhs, but he did not, because what example would this set to his people? Guru Ji was a role model to his Sikhs, they aspired to imitate his behavior in all things. They could hardly emulate him if he attempted this. How could they become the lions they needed to be if his divine protection was always a given? No, I think he realized that the Vaisakhi of 1699 had to be an example of human potential, not a demonstration of non-human powers, if it was to achieve the goal of transforming sparrows into hawks, and that he would have to embody it.

I don't imagine many of the Sikhs at the gathering were battle-hardened veterans. The end of Guru Hargobind Sahib's reign, and the entirety of the seventh and eighth patshaah's reigns had been largely peaceful. The only Sikh soldiers before this time would have been the men of the Akaal Sena, by no means a very large force, and certainly not constituting the majority of Sikhs. Little wonder then that so many fled in terror.

That's fine, and I would never try to take that faith from you. But it happens that I have a slightly different view of the events of 1699 than you do, and accusing me of defaming my Guru as a liar because of this difference of opinion is a bit below the belt, as well as a distortion of what I said.

If at any time Guru Sahib would prove that he was 'Satgur Mera Maar Jeevale' it would be on this most significant occasion for the Panth at that time and for all future time. Guru Hargobind Sahib had also proven this was possible in the Baba Atal Sahib Sakhi.

har a(n)mrith ras paaeiaa muaa jeevaaeiaa fir baahurr maran n hoee ||

Obtaining the Ambrosial Essence of the Lord, the dead are restored to life, and do not die again.

(Guru Raam Daas Ji, Raag Aasaa, 447).

[Balkaar 1,340]

If at any time Guru Sahib would prove that he was 'Satgur Mera Maar Jeevala' it would be in this most significant occasion for the Panth at that time and for all future time. Guru Hargobind Sahib had also proven this was possible in the Baba Atal Sahib Sakhi.

Guru Sahib needn't prove anything to us, least of all that. If he wanted to demonstrate anything at that gathering I believe it was the strength and resourcefulness of ordinary folk, which would help to remold his feeble Sikhs into Singhs and Singhniaan. I think he knew that an exhibition of his power would have undermined this goal.

To think that Guru Sahib did Jhatka of bakriaan is simply hilarious. If there are no eye witness accounts of the heads actually being separated, there also are no accounts of anyone mentioning the bleating goats. When I was studying R.E in school and came across the pages where it mentioned goats I even recall discussing with the teacher that this was plain wrong. She did not of course believe a word I said.

Where do you believe the blood on the tulwaar came from Singhji? I can't be certain that there were goats there either, but it must have come from somewhere and a bakraa seems very reasonable to me.

I have heard that like the Gur Kian Sakhian of Bhatt Vahis this Granth is also a recently discovered Granth. What is interesting is that both this Granth and Gur Kian Sakhia confirm that Jaap Sahib, Savaiya and Chaupi Sahib was read in 1699. This completely blows off the lid of the lies being spread by the heretics missionaries who say there is no historic contemporary proof these Dasam Bani were read in 1699.

That lids been off since Baba Banda Bahadur's day. Still, it can never hurt to have more information with which to humiliate those naastiks and put them in their place.

[InderjitS 1,244]

Guru Sahib needn't prove anything to us, least of all that. If he set out to demonstrate anything at that gathering I believe it was the strength and resourcefulness of ordinary people, which would help to remold his feeble Sikhs into Singhs and Singhniaan. I think he knew that an exhibition of his power would have undermined this goal.

Where do you believe the blood on the tulwaar came from Singhji? I can't be certain that there were goats there either, but it must have come from somewhere and a bakraa is as good an explanation as any.

At the end of the day Guru Sahib did not need to prove anything in many of the accounts where miracles were performed.

I wholeheartedly believe Guru Sahib performed a chamtkaar on that day and the sees was separated from the sareers. Whether anyone else chooses to believe that or not is entirely their wish. We have already have ample examples of extraordinary feats by Gursikhs, let alone Guru Sahib.

[Quantavius 141]

How about the accounts from the Panj Pyare themselves?

[Pakandi baba 153]

why have doubts on Guru ji ? mere Satguru maar jivaala ... so you guys are arguing for the idea that My Satguru is a liar and trickster by supporting the chatka of bakri story ?

what my Guru ji said , he did ...he took those sees given willingly ...

True believers need no accounts of the ability of the Guru Sahibs who were the formless God in each of the ten lives they came in. Satguru Nanak Nirankaar can make the Kaaba move, they can and DID bring the dead back to life.

[WaljinderSingh 834]

Im sure that story has been confirmed as made up/fake.

And your surety is based on what?

[luckysingh99 1,199]

On 5/8/2016 at 1:10 PM, InderjitS said:

To think that Guru Sahib did Jhatka of bakriaan is simply hilarious.

If anyone else tells me this kavi santokh version,  I'll jhatka them myself !

It's shocking that so many sikhs adhere to this version and reproach all that is sacred and divine.

[InderjitS 1,244]

41 minutes ago, luckysingh99 said:

If anyone else tells me this kavi santokh version,  I'll jhatka them myself !

It's shocking that so many sikhs adhere to this version and reproach all that is sacred and divine.

Precisely, don't recall anyone mention goats bleating in our ithiaas and secondly, if Guru Sahib wanted the head of a Goat he would have asked for one and we'd all be bakrian......oh wait some are