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Why Sikhs cant be exonerated for rise of Ram Rahims in and around Punjab


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1 hour ago, jaspindjy said:

Our caste is our identity so we stick with our caste we born in, no harm done. Everyone should be proud of their caste no harm done.

Just shows you how retarded you must be: 'no harm done' - are you demented - there's PLENTY of harm done from this crap. 

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@singhbj singh and many others are correct that Sikhs are the ones to blame for the rise of deras. However, I think the right course of action to tackle deras and now is especially a great time to imp

We Sikhs are #1 enemies of Sikhi today. We do more to harm our own faith than any Hindu or Musalman. 

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Unfortunately his cheli support will get him out/ not in prison at all. And if a Sikh Brahmgyaani (same support/ spiritual level as Sant Maskeen or Gyaani Takur Singh) was to be falsely accused n arrested???? NO AMOUNT of support, legal action n money will get a person out as he/ she a Sikh n teaches people about Sikhi.

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11 hours ago, jaspindjy said:

Look I am not talking about what others do with their castes. I am talking about myself and what I do with mine. I am proud of my caste because I don't hurt or harm anyone with who I am. Everyone is my friend no matter which caste they are, if they are hindus or sikhs. I don't care. As long as I don't hurt anyone's feelings and respect each person for who they are I don't see anything wrong in others or my caste. Only demented people cause harm not me. I have friends from all castes. If they can be proud of thier caste so can I. I have never done no harm to no one, I never chose to be born in my caste, Maharaj did.

So you narrow the whole issue of caste to your personal viewpoint whilst being almost wilfully ignorant of the stank it causes in our wider community. 

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2 hours ago, Balkaar said:

What bigger issues are there in the qaum than caste Singhji?

Deras? - They exist almost entirely because of 'upper caste' prejudice against Mazbhis which cuts them off from the Guru Ghars, from the Guru, and therefore from Sikhi. 

Hindutva? - The easiest way for us to slip back into the Hindu fold like the RSS and BJP want is by embracing caste. Caste is the foundation stone of Hindu civilization. 

Drugs? - What kind of gaaneh do you think the wannabe gangsters selling, consuming and glorifying drugs in the Punjab listen to? Bhangra songs, which are an outgrowth of Jatt culture, hence the endless references to Jatt Jatt Jatt and how strong and brave they supposedly are. 

Demographics? - the reason the Sikh qaum is so powerless is because it lacks the numbers to have any real political clout, if Jatt supremacists had not obstructed the entry of Dr Ambedkar into Sikhi then Sikhs would be much more powerful today. 

Virtually every problem faced by our people today can be linked to caste. There is no bigger issue. It is the stone tied around the neck of Sikhism which prevents us from achieving our true potential as a people. 

In any case, the problem isn't people remembering where they came from, the problem is what people are doing with those remembrances.I am indeed talking about ending prejudice, not being blind to history.  It would be ok if someone acknowledged that they were descended from farmers and left it at that, but in 90% of cases that isn't what happens. The farmer's descendant is convinced that his arbitrary descent from a farmer makes him superior to his neighbour, who was descended from a carpenter. And the carpenter has his own ideas.

I mention sexism because in the context of Punjabi society, caste and sexism are tied. The reason sons are generally preferred over daughters after all is because they serve to perpetuate the family name, which is basically the caste/got name. If this obsession with caste legacy disappeared, then most grounds for viewing female offspring as inferior to males would also, I believe, disappear. Maybe then the shocking gender imbalance in Punjab due to female infanticide would be remedied. 

From what I see most Sikhs are from what the Hindu caste system considered low-castes, practically speaking only a small percentage of the Sikhs are descendents from Brahmins and Ksychatrias. But for all the Deras and Hinduvta groups, you will not find a single head that happens to be a Dalit leading a major dera. I think the bigger problem with our people is that since the Singh Sabha movement, we have failed to diversify the Panth like it's pre-Sikh Empire days, when converts came from other regions of the Subcontinent as well. Rather us being seen as a Punjabi faith is more damaging for our progress than the caste movement, which would die out with more Non-Punjabi followers of Sikhi.

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Apart from the politics of money and patronage of bolly celebs and politicians of ram rahim.

We must ask ourselves what kinda parchar he was giving that drew large crowds? No doubt he is a outlandish charismatic clownish figure and an entertaining one at that to the poorer Indians. The public there these days love that, he was successfully able to tap into that market and gain a large following through Tv show appearances, movies and "rock concerts".

If we look at our parchariks of today what message of hope do they give? Are they charasmatic? Are they entertaining? The audience of today is not the same even a decade ago. Peoples attention span is decreasing with the increasing use of smart phones and social media people want new things and entertaining things to watch. They do not have the capacity and patience to listen to some random boring baba/sant giving lectures of the past that they could easily watch on youtube or doesnt make them feel good.

There needs to be a wholesale analysis of what has gone on for so many problems to be occurring. And it starts as always at the top ... the SGPC...... if Sikhs dont reform or remove this entity we will see Sikhi confined as a minority faith within punjab itself or even dying out and christian or muslim or new age dehra missionaries will tear Indian punjab apart in coming few years by their own personal conflict's with each other.

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1 hour ago, Jacfsing2 said:

 I think the bigger problem with our people is that since the Singh Sabha movement, we have failed to diversify the Panth like it's pre-Sikh Empire days, when converts came from other regions of the Subcontinent as well. Rather us being seen as a Punjabi faith is more damaging for our progress than the caste movement, which would die out with more Non-Punjabi followers of Sikhi.

That's a fair point, one I hadn't ever considered before. But how do you suggest we make Sikhi appear less like a 'Punjabi' faith when most Bani is written in Gurmukhi and our bana/kakkars are based on Punjabi dress? Sikhi is bound to the Punjab, and Punjab to the Sikhs, because of the fact that three of our takhats and most of our historic Guru Ghars are there if nothing else. 

To overturn caste in Sikhi by tipping the balance against Punjabi Sikhs would require at least as many Non-Punjabi Sikhs, so about 30 million if they were all made this second. Those tens of millions of converts to Sikhi are not being made any time soon. And if we can't even preach effectively enough amongst our own people to get them to forsake anti-Sikh practices, how are we ever going to get non-Sikhs to accept Sikhi and do the same? 

 

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47 minutes ago, Balkaar said:

That's a fair point, one I hadn't ever considered before. But how do you suggest we make Sikhi appear less like a 'Punjabi' faith when most Bani is written in Gurmukhi and our bana/kakkars are based on Punjabi dress? Sikhi is bound to the Punjab, and Punjab to the Sikhs, because of the fact that three of our takhats and most of our historic Guru Ghars are there if nothing else. 

To overturn caste in Sikhi by tipping the balance against Punjabi Sikhs would require at least as many Non-Punjabi Sikhs, so about 30 million if they were all made this second. Those tens of millions of converts to Sikhi are not being made any time soon. And if we can't even preach effectively enough amongst our own people to get them to forsake anti-Sikh practices, how are we ever going to get non-Sikhs to accept Sikhi and do the same? 

From my limited understanding converts tend to be more devout than people who happen to be born into any faith, (not just Sikhi), you state that 3 of the 5 takahts are in Punjab, so Sikhs would be big over there; however both Bihar and Maharashtra have less than 1% of their population of Sikhs, despite 20% of the Sikh Takahts. Also I do think many people would become Sikhs if they didn't see us as an ethnic-based religion. 

As for Gurmukhi, I feel that a rise in converts would allow more Sikhs to have more opportunities to learn Gurmukhi, especially among our Sikh brothers and sisters who only speak and write in Hindi and English, the demand for converts, would allow a win-win scenario in more assistance in Gurmukhi.

Kakkars are something that's existed since the beginning of time, (even before the Prakash of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji), the Sikh faith only expanded on that.

If we look at the history of Christianity and Islam, they only got real power when non-middle-eastern people started following the faith, with Christianity, they united European interests and nearly eliminated barriers related to ethnic tribes. And Islam has drastically made entire nations based on their Sharia Law. Now I'm not saying any of this should be our goal; however, the goal should be forcing the misconceotipn that Punjabi=Sikh or Sikh=Punjabi has to go, and the only way to do that is diversifying. I'm not saying that Punjabis Sikhs should give-up their culture or rather non-Punjabis Sikhs should give-up their cultute, but it would go along way for us to think on a global level, rather than the local level.

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The thought of Sikhism being a Punjabi faith is confined to outside of India.

Many Sikhs in Delhi are not familiar with Punjabi (even though they are ethnically punjabi), anyone interested in Sikhism would naturally visit a Gurudwara in which IMO many people cannot converse in Punjabi. 

we can still say it is a Punjabi faith, which definitely non-Punjabi's can adopt..... just like most Muslims are not native to the middle-east or ksa.

I certainly believe many non-Sikhs would find the Sikh religion beautiful and more reformed.

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11 minutes ago, jaspindjy said:

If it doesn't exist then why do the amritdari with bana ask others which caste they belong to? Their are castes in sikhism sikhs marry with their own castes but not outside. Amritdari sikhs too believe in not marrying below thier caste if they unable to find another amritdari person which is a  well known fact. My family is also amritdari dare we marry outside of our caste it doesn't matter if we like it or nor. I am not bringing it BACK into sikhi it is ALREADY there which we learn from the time we born and I am very PROUD OF MY CASTE.  There is nothing to bring BACK if something ALREADY EXISTS.  I have a 'singh' in my name which follows the name of my caste. I am very proud.

I did not choose to be born in this caste, I was born in it with Mahraj's kirpa. Sikhs DO HAVE CASTES so the story does not end just because you say so. I am a JATT and love it but I will not mistreat or insult or judge anyone just because they are not JATTS for sure.  Like i say before, I have friends from all castes and they are wonderful sikhs, better sikhs than most amritdari sikhs including me.

I am proud Jatt amritdari sikh and there is nothing no one can do about it. If you not a jatt then be proud of which caste you come from and share it with us.

It's better to be a Non-Amritdhari, or a Non-Sikh and not believe in caste, over being an Amritdhari and believe in caste. Caste was never part of Sikhi, rather buffoons like yourself are bringing it back into Sikhi. Now i know where my ancestors come from, and what they long ago did; however, it has no effect on my life, I live for myself, not some eternal social construct. Simply having "friends", from other castes doesn't stop the fact that you are casteist, in the same way someone who has friends from another race doesn't mean he's not racist.

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1 hour ago, jaspindjy said:

If it doesn't exist then why do the amritdari with bana ask others which caste they belong to?

IF an amritdhari shot someone would you go out an do it? grow a brain you numbskull. Follow Gurbani not what humans do.

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Their are castes in sikhism sikhs marry with their own castes but not outside. Amritdari sikhs too believe in not marrying below thier caste if they unable to find another amritdari person which is a  well known fact. My family is also amritdari dare we marry outside of our caste it doesn't matter if we like it or nor. I am not bringing it BACK into sikhi it is ALREADY there which we learn from the time we born and I am very PROUD OF MY CASTE.  There is nothing to bring BACK if something ALREADY EXISTS.  I have a 'singh' in my name which follows the name of my caste. I am very proud.

Your family itself is a disgrace to Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Did you zone out when the Punj Pyare said "kul nash" and "Jat nash" Bhai Gurdas Ji said all the castes were merged into one. Is he a liar then? You and your family are a prime example of what is wrong with Sikhi, fake ones like you screaming about being proud of being Jatts.

 

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The Jathedar of the Panj Pyare is to utter the Fateh, as is the tradition from Satguru’s time, and congratulate the ‘new’ initiates. He also says, "Khalsa Jee, many of you are blessed for on this day you have received Satguru Jee’s gift of Amrit. You have shaken off the influence of Guruless people. You now belong to the Guru. From this day forward, you are the sons and daughters of the Guru, and your mind, body and wealth belong to the Guru. Having taken the Guru’s Amrit, your previous caste, family name and sins are no more. Your previous life is finished and today you have taken birth in the House of the Guru. You are all now part of the Khalsa family:

 

 

This is from the Rehit Maryada. Did you and your utterly contemptible family zone out when taking amrit then?

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I did not choose to be born in this caste, I was born in it with Mahraj's kirpa. Sikhs DO HAVE CASTES so the story does not end just because you say so. I am a JATT and love it but I will not mistreat or insult or judge anyone just because they are not JATTS for sure.  Like i say before, I have friends from all castes and they are wonderful sikhs, better sikhs than most amritdari sikhs including me.

Good, then go and do a DNA break down. Find me the genome code that says "jatt" on it, if its not there then its manmat you're screaming about. Maharaj made you, so go on. Show me where he labelled in your code that you're a jatt.

All you've done is say that something Guru Nanak Dev Ji called false in Gurbani is a worth noting. You've called Bhai Gurdas Ji a liar and spat at the face of Bhai Daya Singh Ji's rehitnama. What then? he said not to ask about caste, do you think that doesn't apply for idiots who proclaim their caste out? The very mention of it was forbidden yet we have this nonsense going on.

You have no idea where the Caste system comes from yet you blindly follow it like a buffoon.

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I am proud Jatt amritdari sikh and there is nothing no one can do about it. If you not a jatt then be proud of which caste you come from and share it with us.

My caste is that of a Sikh of Guru Nanak. Hindus made the caste system, so cling it to and continue with rebirth. I'm sure it'll help you out so well.

 

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Sikhism is an all inclusive religion.

Our own lack and shallow understanding of Sikhi along with Government anti Sikh forces gave rise to Deras, Radhaswami, Nirankaris, Kukey etc.

Not to mention its extremely hard to have an intelligent conversation among a group of Sikhs. Let alone having them talk about Sikhi to other faiths.

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13 minutes ago, jaspindjy said:

And that is why you call yourself a 'superkaur' because this gives you the right to insult the Guru Granth by saying IT is not waheguru? You need to shame 'jatt sikhs' because when you go to the Guru Granth Sahib you learn to insult and shame others for being born in the families and castes they have been born in under the Guru's Hukam? Your distant relatives daughters must have been pure slags to run off like this to bring shame on their mothers and fathers. CHEAP SLUTS. Only sluts run off not decent girls.

Sri Guru granth sahib Ji is waheguru? Are you feeling ok?

Where did you get this new revealation? Guru gobind Singh ji never said this... nor did any of the Guru's they didnt say adi granth is Waheguru we must worship the saroop. Guru gobind singh ji forbade people to call him God and said those who did would be cursed. So when he transfered the Guruship to SGGS Ji he transfered only the Guruship not the God status you seem to have mistakenly believed in.

So all these years you been worshipping literally worshipping SGGS Ji as an idol as God? like hindus do with their idols like the dehra premis worship their cult leaders as God.

Oh dear no wonder your so lost.... people like you need alot of help understanding Sikhi if your that lost

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3 hours ago, jaspindjy said:

What am I doing my co-numbskull born with 1/4 the size of my brain? Of course, I shall always follow the Gurbani and not you.

 

Then why are you calling Bhai Gurdas Ji a liar? Why are you calling Guru Sahib a liar?

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You are the liar here hiding behind your Missionary agenda. Your family must be a disgrace to bring you into this world who cannot accept his/her family's caste by Maharaj's Hukam. 

My caste is that of my father's, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the most hilarious thing as you are openly defying the 5 pyare and Maharaj. That line is from the Taksal Maryada, if they're suddenly missionary then so was Baba Deep Singh Ji, Sant Jarnail Singh Ji and so on. 

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 You are NOT A SIKH OF ANY GURU IF YOU CANNOT COME TO TERMS WITH HIS HUKAM, END OF STORY!!!!!!! I LOVE MY FAMILY AND AM VERY VERY PROUD OF THEM and I BET You can't say the same. I doubt if you have a family in the first place.  I don't need any DNA my surname is enough proof. I am not clinging to my caste but to the Guru as a 'Bains' and very proudly too.

Your Guru said Caste is useless, its in Gurbani. Now you're the one openly lying. So much pride in your family, I'm more than happy with my current earthly family. But if they get in the way of my Sikhi I'll happily disown them and leave, I have no attachment to them, sure i love them but I love my Guru more.  My true Family is alive and well, My Guru Pita is Akaal himself and my Guru Mata is the embodiment of love in the form of Mata Sahib Kaur Ji. My brothers and sisters are Gurmukhs who recite the Waheguru Mantar, My family is alive and well. My family will live forever, yours on the other hand will burn in a fire on their death day. You cling to them more than your own Guru, that alone is sad and pathetic. 

So who exactly is family-less?

God made you through your DNA, so show me where it says Jatt there. Anyone can change their surname and start afresh, I can walk out of my house, go to Spain and tell the sangat there I'm a Shudra,Brahim etc. But your DNA doesn't lie. So prove it through science. I hope that's not too hard for you.

My Guru said that the Caste system is useless and he destroyed it, So im definitely following his orders. You didn't even bother listening during your own Amrit Sanchar, I wonder who the bigger fool is. You don't even have a shred of knowledge where the caste system comes from, yet you're zealously defending it. So much haumai yet you claim to be a sikh.

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I have already said to you to be proud of your caste does not matter which caste you belong to. Maharaj send you there because of your karam same as Maharaj send me to mine because of my karam.. Btw, I have never heard someone named as first name singh/kaur followed by Guru Nanak. STOP INSULTING SRI GURU NANAK SAHIB THERE IS NO CASTE SURNAME CALLED GURU NANAK.  LAIR.

Yes I am a lair. MY caste is that of "Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Ji" the Hindu Brahmins you enjoy serving with your tribalism all fear him. He broke the Caste System and the British brought it back, so good luck following them. MY caste is that of a Sikh of Guru Nanak, I am Casteless. 

 

Enjoy sorting out the newly converted White Brothers and Sisters, the Asian ones, the Black ones and trying to assign them a caste. I wonder how that'll go.

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I have NEVER seen anyone's name followed with Guru Nanak. So you are really called Mr/Mrs/Miss Kira Singh/Kaur Guru Nanak??? <banned word filter activated> lying pea brain.

I don't think you actually get it, do you? 

Bha Gurdas Ji said that Guru Nanak Dev Ji merged them all into 1, so is he a liar? Is Bhai Daya Singh Ji a liar for forbidding sikhs from even mentioning it? Bhai Nand Lal said Guru Gobind Singh Ji abolished the caste system, is he a liar? I could go on and on and reference many Mahapurkhs but I'm sure you with your primitive tribalism will never be able to get it through your head.

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