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MokhamSingh

Rules for Kathawachiks and preachers...

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Khalsa Ji,

To avoid any unpleasant issues, one should read and adhere to the rules laid out by Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji. The chapter is called “Vakta Sarotal’, from SriGurpratap Suraj Granth.

Satguru Ji clearly explains the maryada for doing katha, and conversely, the maryada for those sitting in Sangat. It seems that some preachers/ kathawachiks are not reading or adhering to Gurmat.

If we all adhere to Gurmat, then this would eradicate all anti social activities, and bad behaviour...

Waheguru...

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1 hour ago, MokhamSingh said:

Khalsa Ji,

To avoid any unpleasant issues, one should read and adhere to the rules laid out by Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji. The chapter is called “Vakta Sarotal’, from SriGurpratap Suraj Granth.

Satguru Ji clearly explains the maryada for doing katha, and conversely, the maryada for those sitting in Sangat. It seems that some preachers/ kathawachiks are not reading or adhering to Gurmat.

If we all adhere to Gurmat, then this would eradicate all anti social activities, and bad behaviour...

Waheguru...

If I remember correctly are you referring to the 14 attributes the kathavachik should possess & the 14 attributes the listener should possess? 

Goodluck in this time & age.... a handful of old kathavachiks do possess the attributes but majority of sangat these days are a bunch of stupid dhangers with no intelligence... just have a look at the state of this site. Even those people who cant even recite penti, have no kamai & never learnt from a Sant or mahapurekh think they know it all.

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Thanks for this. Yes it is important to first learn rehats, Step by step. Going to google this Shabd now t gain knowledge. Once again, thanks.

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7 hours ago, MokhamSingh said:

 

Satguru Ji clearly explains the maryada for doing katha, and conversely, the maryada for those sitting in Sangat. It seems that some preachers/ kathawachiks are not reading or adhering to Gurmat.

If you have it, why don't you post it? Very few people have access to Suraj Prakash. 

At the very least you could post the chapter information.

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8 hours ago, BhForce said:

If you have it, why don't you post it? Very few people have access to Suraj Prakash. 

At the very least you could post the chapter information.

Khalsa Ji,

The chapter can be read from my scribd.com page. It is under the heading ‘charcha char parkar’. And ‘vakta sarota’.

Waheguru...

 

Edited by MokhamSingh
Omitted something earlier...

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1 hour ago, MokhamSingh said:

Khalsa Ji,

The chapter can be read from my scribd.com page. It is under the heading ‘charcha char parkar’. And ‘vakta sarota’.

Waheguru...

Thanks for making so much stuff available. 

But one benti: Scribd is positively Evil👹

They were quasi-free in the beginning to get people used to uploading and downloading stuff. But now they make you pay to download stuff. The alternative is to upload PDFs, but how many people have spare PDFs lying around to upload in return for every file they want to download?

I have seen many times where I've attempted to upload a bona fide PDF, and Scribd says the PDF is a duplicate of one already on the site. So what are you supposed to upload? Your own personal budget?

If you were asking for money in return for your time and expense in collecting and uploading material, I would not object. But the money goes to Scribd. Why should every Sikh out there give money to Scribd to download Gurmat gian?

If I could ask a favor of you, why not

1) upload your stuff on Sikhsangat? If not all your stuff, how about just the PDF of the Vakta Sarota for now, since it is pertinent to the topic being discussed?

2) Upload your materials to Gurmatveechar.com or another similar site.

3) Get a free blog at wordpress.com, and upload your files there. (Note: Blogspot.com blogs are free, too, but you can't upload PDFs there.)

Thanks, brother.

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6 hours ago, BhForce said:

Thanks for making so much stuff available. 

But one benti: Scribd is positively Evil👹

They were quasi-free in the beginning to get people used to uploading and downloading stuff. But now they make you pay to download stuff. The alternative is to upload PDFs, but how many people have spare PDFs lying around to upload in return for every file they want to download?

I have seen many times where I've attempted to upload a bona fide PDF, and Scribd says the PDF is a duplicate of one already on the site. So what are you supposed to upload? Your own personal budget?

If you were asking for money in return for your time and expense in collecting and uploading material, I would not object. But the money goes to Scribd. Why should every Sikh out there give money to Scribd to download Gurmat gian?

If I could ask a favor of you, why not

1) upload your stuff on Sikhsangat? If not all your stuff, how about just the PDF of the Vakta Sarota for now, since it is pertinent to the topic being discussed?

2) Upload your materials to Gurmatveechar.com or another similar site.

3) Get a free blog at wordpress.com, and upload your files there. (Note: Blogspot.com blogs are free, too, but you can't upload PDFs there.)

Thanks, brother.

Khalsa Ji,

Just give me a couple of days to retrieve my old digitised books, stored on my external  hard drive. I did upload the chapters directly to this site, about nine years ago. I’m trying to search the site, to see, if I can retrieve them from here.

I did attempt an English translation on my blogspot. But I would prefer to upload the Gurmukhi text.

Gurmatveechar.com have always done a fantastic seva, in terms of audio and pdf uploads.The entire eleven volume, of this huge Granth, is uploaded there too, with Punjabi translations by Dr. Alit Singh Aulakh.

With mahan kirpa of Satguru, Giani Harbhajan Singh Dhudikey, has done the entire audio Katha of this Granth. Once again, head bowed to Gurmatveechar.com, and the contributors.

Waheguru...

Edited by MokhamSingh
Typo

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Charcha Char Parkar (Eglish)

MokhamSingh August 15, 2010

Dear Sikhsangat Ji

You may recall that an ebook version of "Charcha Char Parkar" (Four types of debate) from the biography of Dhan Dhan Sri Hargobind singh Ji Maharaj was uploaded on the Scribd page.

With Waheguru Ji's Mehar an attempt has been made to translate this nine page text into English. I hope you will forgive the shortcomings since Guru Ji is limitless and we are Kalyugi jeevs. 

Please provide suggestions as to how this translation could be improved.

Many thanks for reading:-

http://www.mokhamsingh.blogspot.com/

Adaiy 31.

Charcha chaar parkaar.

There was a Sikh named Darghaha Phandaaria who was of a very patient nature. He stayed by Sri Hargobind Singh Ji's side and engaged in their seva at all times.(1)

One day with clasped hands he said "Sikhs discuss Gurbani but some end up fighting by not retracting from their own individual arth (meaning/interpretation).(2)

Upon hearing this Guru Ji said that "Charcha Char Parkaar di hundi hain" (Dicussion/debate) is of four types. Gursikhs adopt two types and dismiss the other two types.(3)

One method is "Vaad". Shabad Arth (meaning) is not taken in the heart. They ask/tell each other , listen with prem (love) but do not contemplate the arth.(4)

Second is "Het" which is in the brain , which the Sikh engages in the kathan of (preaching/telling etc). They listen to other and speak "Mihtay Bachan" (sweet words). They do not take the arth in any other way.(5)

In a pleasant manner the shabad arth is portrayed. The munn (mind) accepts it as it heard. Then with own "Vishas Budhi" (Understanding) listens and upon seeing the virtues , acts upon the Gurbani's instruction.(6)

Both people in this case discuss/listen , then afterwards whichever arth seems "Nirnayak"(logical/rational) and leaving "Pakh and vivaad" (personal affiliations/leanings , arguing etc) aside they absorb the Gurbani instruction in their heart and eulogise the shabad.(7)

One person does not know the arth so they listen to it from a second person and vice versa. The good attributes(Gunn) of both here have merged. Both have acceptrd each other's input and have arrived at a satisfactory conclusion in a loving manner (Prem).(8)

Just as one "Diva" (candle like device) provides light in an upward manner but behind the diva remains darkness but if there is another Diva there , then the back darkness of both will disappear.(9)

Whoever engages in arth individually , this does not eradicate ego. If both engage in arth then they will taste the sweet nectar of the shabad. Furthermore ego is eradicated and they receive "Mahan Phall" (Huge spiritual benefit).(10)

The third type of charcha is known as "Jalp" , where it is uttered from own mouth. Stresses their own point of view here without considering the feelings/thoughts of others.(11)

On this issue both have given rise to argument/disagreement , they attempt to promote their own views and attempt to back them up too. They will attempt to give numerous examples in order to make their point stick. Both these people neither accept or practice in the mind.(12)

As they endeavour to propagate their own arth , they become agonistic and engage in devaluing each other's arth. They become "Krodit"(angry) which leads to fighting. They see each other as enemies which leads to a loss of inner peace.(13)

This type of Gursikh is not "Angikaar" (accepted) , Their mind is not "Snimar" (humble). This gives rise to hatred. The fourth Charcha is "Vithinda". Always engaging in "khandan" (non-acceptance/destroying).(14)

Their own intellectual is nothing special but refutes the views of others. All readers upon seeing this person become "Dukhi" (upset).(15)

This type of person is also rejected by Gursikhs. They cling onto the core message of the shabad and show love towards the pious virtues therein. They never hurt anybody's feelings , they fill everybody's hearts with joy.(16)

Upon hearing this pious Bani from the Mukh of Guru Ji , the minds of the Sikhs were filled with "Sharda" (faith/belief). A Sikh named Jamal arrived there , and bowed to the feet of Guru Maharajh Ji.(17)

Whilst sitting next to guru ji he displayed true love. He accepted the degh which was being distributed at the time of his arrival. He was overwhelmed by guru Ji's aura which was as cool as the moon and beautifully touched everyone's hearts.(18)

With clasped hands he humbly requested "I have sought your sharan"

(sanctuary) , make me your Sikh and grace me with "Sukhdayak"(blissful) wisdom.(19)

I have heard your greatness before , now I have seen you hazoor. I will stay in your sanctuary , please tell me what you would like me to do?(20)

Guru Ji gave "Updesh" (Divine instruction) , read,listen to Guru Ji shabad and then reflect upon it. Then with faith and adherence act upon the teachings and expect to receive the ultimate spiritual blessings.(21)

Prabhu (Waheguru Ji) creates the bodies in the world , which are made of five elements. Consider all the same (none more none less). There is an internal force that works the outer body , consider that as the body.(22)

Everywhere there is the one "Chetna" that works everything. Chetna is universal , whoever knows this is a Sikh , their "Bandan" (handcuffs/shackles) of rebirths are subsequently removed.(23)

Upon hearing this Jamal raised a question , "if chetna is the same throughout then why can't everyone's hunger be eradicated if one person was to eat a meal?"(24)

If knowledge is the same then why doesn't everybody lose ignorance? Only the person who eats becomes full , only the wise lose their ignorance.(25)

Upon hearing this Guru Ji answered , "Whaday" (clay pots) and "Kohtay" (high houses) are of different kinds. They all show the same "Akash" (skylight) , it is decidedly so the same do not think there is a difference.(26)

In the whadah (clay pot) whatever item is placed therein , the same can be seen upon emptying it. The khotah (house) which is illuminated , will show it to be lit up.(27)

In the same way consider the consumption of food , drinking water is necessary for life. In the same way the life force for the mind is "Gyan"(knowledge) , consider the "atma" (soul) to be the "sakhi" (supreme) of all.(28)

There is no difference in samm jaati , bhin jaati , and uttam gatti. The most important is Brahm chetna. Just as one jaati trees are the same , in the same way brahm is the same everywhere.(29)

If then someone is to say that rock and tree are of bhin jaati , in that way brahm is not discovered. Brahm is chetan (life force) and the world is jadd (lifeless) , both vijaati (bhin jaati) are familiar.(30)

Brahm is perpetually sat chit and without destruction , within brahm the jadd world is imagined , and that's why it is not real and such is not indestructible. In another words without Brahm the world is meaningless. There is no bhintah(separate entities) in Brahm , in Brahm no one can put vijaati bhed (divisions/categories etc.)(31)

Just as there are branches and twigs on a tree , uttam Gatti Bhed is to be understood in this way. Just as there is a difference in the human limbs. There is no uttam ghatti bhed in Brahm , in another words the difference seen in oneself like tree branches and human limbs but owing to the "Nirakaar" (formless) nature of chetan there is no uttam ghatti bhed because it is without limbs etc.(32)

Consider Brahm Atmah in this way , it is "Nirgun" (formless) in everything , it is infused with everything and yet separate at the same time. Just as the reflection of the stars can be seen on water.(33)

The "sareer" (body) is a "whadah" (clay pot) , the antar indri is the water , brahm is equivelant here to the moon's reflection. Brahm is within everything but at the same time it is also separate. In the same way atmah is in the "hirdah" (chest).(34)

Whosoever realises this is the Param uttam (high) Sikhs of the Satguru. Upon hearing this Jamal became Guru Ji's Sikh. He understood the concept of jadd chetna.(35)

Bhai Kukkoh and whadawan together with their acquaintance Anantah arrived in the "Sharan" (Sanctuary) of Guru Ji , they both fell at the feet of Guru Ji.(36)

With clasped hands they humbly requested , "Sri Guru Nanak Nirankari hoy hunn" (1st Patshahi were revered with these names). They accepted Degh as superior to other kinds of food stuffs ?(37)

What virtues did Guru Ji see in this? They did not consider other sweets or food in the same way? Upon hearing this Guru Ji explained "of all the "Avtars" (holy messengers) Guru Ji were the most supreme".(38)

In the same way Degh is the most supreme , it was made to be accepted by all the Sanagt. In the same way Guru Ji's Shabad & updesh are supreme. Sri Satnam is the highest of all.(39)

As long as the Gurta Gaddhi (SGGS ji) is intact , then all the best selective things will be given to the Sikhs. Those who are receptive of Guru Ji's teachings will relish these gifts.(40)

Guru Ji select the best things for their Sikhs and give them so. The Sikhs contemplate the teachings contained within the Shabad and utter them blissfully.(41)

In Guru Ghar (Gurdwara Sahib) this is the most valuable commodity. Whosoever acquires this , they do not have to face pain. Upon hearing this everbody became immensely satisfied. Nivla and Nihaloo were two Sikhs who came to Guru Ji.(42)

They sat down after touching Guru ji's feet and said "Guru Ji how can we achieve saviour?". Guru Ji said " fire is present in all wood". (43)

"Without rubbing the wood together (friction) the fire will not burn , and as such cannot eliminate the cold. Just as there is butter present in yogurt , without churning it cannot be obtained.(44)

"In the same way within Satguru Ji's shabad is contained Atam Gyan which is the essence of eternal bliss. By reading Gurbani one attains a very high deed , otherwise Atam Gyan is not obtained".(45)

"When the shabad is absorbed in the heart after contemplation , it effects are channelled throughout. There is enlightenment which is gives immense bliss , and the pain and sorrow of births and deaths is eradicated.(46)

Upon hearing Guru Ji's updesh both commenced reading Gurbani with a great mind. They would contemplate the core message contained therein and then engage in Katha amidst Satsangat.(47)

By hearing their Katha many became highly satisfied , they left their fears,vices and attained Gurmat. They listened to Katha with great enthusiasm ,love ,and devotion. They achieved Brahm Gyan as a subsequence.(48)

It "Sarotay" (listeners) and speakers get together then the state of "Jeevan Mukhti" (living bliss) can be attained. In this way many Sikhs acquired salvation. They all uttered "Dhan Dhan Satguru". (49)

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It's funny because at the moment basics of Sikhi are doing videos on this except they don't talk about the qualities of a speaker first which they should but only talk about the listener lol 

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