Gurdwara Designs

[Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh]

WJKK WJKF everyone,

Just to add some much needed input to a discussion taking place on the main page regarding the design of Sikh Gurdwaras:

https://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/83132-gurdwara-designs/

TejS said:
 

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Being interested in architecture, I have wondered this many times too. Also when I heard about the Sikh temple shooting in Wisconsin, I couldn't help but think that not only the turbans, but the temple itself may had made it look more probable that it was a mosque. Now before I draw the ire of some members here, I'm not questioning the Gurus, simply just stating my own observations.

Having done some research I've found that Sikh architecture has been significantly influenced by Mughal architecture. And in turn, Mughal architecture is basically Persian architecture, which in turn is basically Arabian architecture, hence Islamic architecture. 

 

No. It's a very common misconception to refer to something as 'Arabian' architecture.  The  'Arabian' style is very different and this is well articulated by the designs of Moorish Islamic architecture in Spain. This photograph from 1915 of the great mosque of Kufa demonstrates well I think what the Arabian architectural style of a mosque always was:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Kufa_Mosque%2C_1915.jpg

So you see, our Sikh Gurdwara architectural style is organically influenced by the Persian style (very different to the Arabian style) which itself was heavily based on the Byzantium style via the eastern orthodox Christian style. Indeed before Islam was even born eastern orthodox Christian churches were already erected using the Byzantium architectural style, i.e. onion domes: (see pictures of some orthodox churches below)

In essence then, you need not concentrate too much on any 'islamic' influence and remember that the Sikh style of architecture cannot be separated from the natural and profound influence western Asia has had on the Punjab as a whole, regardless of whether it is language, buildings, culture or the layout of villages. And then, secondly, you need to remember that the Persian style that influenced us was in turn influenced by the eastern orthodox style which in turn was influenced by the Byzantium style. We, the Sikhs, didn't just fall out of the sky one day centuries ago....everybody is influenced by something...but don't get too hung up on any Islamic aspect because the muslims too were influenced by something that came before them.

 

[Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh]

Not much changes on sikhsangat, in the sense that the distinct lack of debate and capability of debate is ever present. I only had a day or so for a brief chat so it’s a shame this discussion couldn’t have progressed. I would have liked to have taken the discussion to an examination of the Sassanian architectural concept of an ‘iwan’ and how persian islam took that concept as an essential aspect of a mosque, I.e.. a place where a ‘king’ would address the common masses and the Sikhs by and large by-passed the concept of an ‘iwan’ as an essential concept and instead concentrated on the ‘diwan’ as the abode of the true king,  I’ll be back in town next month. If anyone here would like to add to this topic It would be a pleasure to converse with you then.

[Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh]

Come on guys. Would love to hear your thoughts here about Gurdwara architecture outside of India. There is no right and wrong thing to say about this subject as each individual thought is valid. You see a building and you either like it or you don't. Maybe you have a reason for that emotion...maybe you don't. It's all valid. Like when we go to the National Gallery and you stare at a 17th century painting by some obscure Dutch artist. Maybe every little detail in that painting tells you a story about the history of international trade and life or maybe it doesn't speak to you at all and you just don't like it. It's all valid.  Maybe there is such a thing as Sikh Architecture...maybe there isn't...or maybe, as in my case, you feel there 'is such a thing but it isn't at the moment but should be in the future'....whatever that means !! Yikes.  It's all valid. Maybe you stare at the Ilford Gurdwara and are mesmerised by its symmetrical beauty and intricate artwork?

Or...maybe, you're moved in a negative way because of the idea of a verandah or two designed for a princess to gaze lovingly and in awe over the luxurious and sweeping majestic plains of.......Ilford High Road ?

 

There is no right or wrong. There is no ugly or beautiful building. It's about what your eyes make you feel inside. Share your thoughts with me here and I'll share mine.

[puzzled]

I find these old abandoned Gurdware in pakistan very beautiful 

 

These buildings are beautiful yet simple and look nothing like mosques. They have so much character and charm 

Modern day gurdwara buildings look dull and repetitive compared to these buildings  

[puzzled]

The orignal qila anandgarh sahib 

[puzzled]

 

[puzzled]

[puzzled]

fathegrah sahib gurdwara

chamkaur sahib

kesgarh sahib

[puzzled]

Gurduara Katalgarh Sahib

 

[TejS]

On 5/21/2018 at 3:41 AM, Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

No. It's a very common misconception to refer to something as 'Arabian' architecture.  The  'Arabian' style is very different and this is well articulated by the designs of Moorish Islamic architecture in Spain.

You are so misinformed, it's not even funny. Moorish architecture in Spain is not "Arabian", as the Moors were from the Maghreb and not from Arabia. Moorish architecture found in Andalusia is mostly a mix of Berber (the ethnicity of the Moors) and Spanish architecture with Arabic/Islamic influences.

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This photograph from 1915 of the great mosque of Kufa demonstrates well I think what the Arabian architectural style of a mosque always was:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Kufa_Mosque%2C_1915.jpg

Yes that demonstrates Arabian architecture which by the way is synonymous with Islamic architecture. And the peaked domes and the overall layout is very reminiscent of Gurudwaras I see all the time.

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So you see, our Sikh Gurdwara architectural style is organically influenced by the Persian style (very different to the Arabian style) which itself was heavily based on the Byzantium style via the eastern orthodox Christian style. Indeed before Islam was even born eastern orthodox Christian churches were already erected using the Byzantium architectural style, i.e. onion domes: (see pictures of some orthodox churches below)

Yup, you're still pretty misinformed. You would not have said the Arabian style is different to the Persian style which is influenced by Byzantine architecture, had you known that the first major demonstration of Arabic architecture that was to serve as the basis and influence for Arabic/Islamic architecture, the Dome of the Rock, was heavily influenced by Byzantine architecture. Persian architecture pre-Islam and before the Sassanids was extremely different and did not have the domes and horse-shoe arches that are now seen everywhere in Iran. The ruins of Persepolis and the Tomb of Cyrus are good examples of what Persian architecture was like before Islam. So, the influence goes like this: Byzantium > Arabic/Islamic > Persian > Central Asian > South Asian > Sikh.

Persepolis ruins:

Here's a reconstruction of Persepolis:

And here's the Tomb of Cyrus:

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In essence then, you need not concentrate too much on any 'islamic' influence and remember that the Sikh style of architecture cannot be separated from the natural and profound influence western Asia has had on the Punjab as a whole, regardless of whether it is language, buildings, culture or the layout of villages. And then, secondly, you need to remember that the Persian style that influenced us was in turn influenced by the eastern orthodox style which in turn was influenced by the Byzantium style. We, the Sikhs, didn't just fall out of the sky one day centuries ago....everybody is influenced by something...but don't get too hung up on any Islamic aspect because the muslims too were influenced by something that came before them.

And herein lies the problem with our community. I've even opened up a thread about it that we have never cultivated a culture of our own. Everything that we call our own today is West Asian in origin, a group of people that we share no heritage with. Our culture represents the stupidity of our ancestors and their servitude under their West Asian rulers. Yes, everybody is influenced by others, but there's a limit to influence. You can be inspired from something and then build on it to make it your own. This has not been the case with our people (Punjabi and South Asians as well) who have blatantly taken what was imposed on them. It's a shame really.