Starting University...

[naam_jap]

I have graduated from university, but still it was a good read. You are doing good work of inspiring young youth.

Seeing your unbreakable faith in guru ji, I suggest you make frinds with even the people who go clubbing and bring them to the correct path. After all, it is gurmukhs that is gonna help them out. If noone shows them the path, then they wont know. And I feel it will help them.

[randip singh]

Sounds like this fellow is trying to withdraw from the world rather than face it as our Guru's have commanded!

I am not impressed with this at all.

In the UK the Pub means going for something to eat, socialising, and for many smoking and drinking.

I hate smoke, so I avoid smokey places like the plague, but if me and my work colleagues want to go for a pub lunch, I go with them. They may drink but I DONT, because waheguru has provided me with the iron will not to.

Sorry to sound negative, but Guru Gobind Singh Ki has asked us Sikhs to stand out in crowds, and not worry about going to places (even if there maybe alcohol served there). The true mark of a Sikh is to refrain from temptation even when being surrounded by it!

[SSM]

I am impressed with the way Manvir Singh veerji handled the whole situation everytime he did not want to go out.

Yes sikhs should face the world, but does that mean we must go to a place where people smoke and drink, is it needed? So what if it was a strip club? When people go clubbing they do not always act decent, half naked and flirting around, if he wants to avoid that then good on him.

\Why the passive smoking and the smell of alcohol when it can so easily be avoided.

He did socialise with these people, only not in a pub.

I don't think he was scared that he might be tempted to drink lol so nothing about iron will - it just does not feel right for an amritdhari to walk into a pub with our Sri Sahib on. If you have to then fine but if it can be avoided then why?

Anyways I think he was lucky he didn't go cos then he had a chance to sing more kirtan.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

[Heera Singh]

very nice....

and randip singh... get a grip dude... he didn't feel like goin.. didn't feel comfortable... so u can't say he's 'goin against guru jee's will'... if u wanna go.. tha's all good... he don't.. so leave it at that..

[Sikh_Kuri]

but God has given us so so so much that we can not even thank God enough for that.

Yes SSM Paji & Singh Sandhu Paji I agree with you both on that :doh:

[randip singh]

and randip singh... get a grip dude... he didn't feel like goin.. didn't feel comfortable... so u can't say he's 'goin against guru jee's will'... if u wanna go.. tha's all good... he don't.. so leave it at that..

122778[/snapback]

I don’t need to get “a grip DUDE!” thanks very much!

be if its comfort you seek then Sikhism is the wrong faith for you.

Sikhism IS NOT about being comfortable. Its about tackling uncomfortable situations head on. Its about been surrounded by the Kaam, Krodh, Moh Lobh and Hankaar, yet being have sense enough to control them and not participating in them. Sikhi is about going into uncomfortable situations (the worst being battle), and tackling your enemy head on. Its about saying, I am here, I am a Sikh and I have a right to be here.

I’m not saying go out night clubbing or spend all your times in pubs. What I am saying is don’t let situations like that dissuade you from meeting new people, and especially letting other people see that you are a Sikh.

Lets go back to examples in Sikh history:

Who did Guru Nanak Dev Ji keep company with. Mardana a Marasi. Now Marasi’s were considered no better than prostitutes. Bala a Jat who were considered low caste, bad and volatile company to keep. Lalo a Tarkhan, who were considered outcaste vaish, and bad immoral company to keep. Do you think, felt comfortable about what people said to him? There are numerous examples of Guruji being in places that would be considered immoral, and yet he was able get some good out of the situation.

Jassa Singh Aluwalia’s family were distillers of alcohol (and considered immoral people of a low caste) to them if he didn’t know this? Maybe, he wouldn’t have, if it was his comfort that he sought, and how the situation made him feel.

Do you think the Sikhs who were living in jungles to escape execution were confortable with that? How about the 1000’s executed at Shaheed Ganj?

Now listen very clearly, I have NOT become a Sikh to feel comfortable in situations. I will not be dissuaded from going somewhere because of some delusions in my head that I hold the higher moral ground.

Be sensible about the situations you are in. Be a member of society, not a member shut away from society. The real test of a man/woman is being in this world but not necessary of it.

On another note, if we as Sikhs don’t go out to anywhere apart from our own Sikh functions, how will other people know about us? How will we educate people about us?

We should be outward looking, not inward looking. Sikhi has two components……The Temporal and the Spiritual! Make sure you get that balance right.

PS Stop making STUPID comments about going to strip clubs and use pertinent examples.

[AK-47]

Randip Singh, sorry but i have to completely disagree with you.

Where did guru gobind singh ji tell us not worry about going to places like this? even when alcohol is being served consumed etc?

Regarding withdrawing from the world, he is not doing that at all, he has simply realised the fake illusion that is the world and has chosen the path of the gurmukh as oppossed to follwoing the herds of sheep like others do.

The two usual sakhi's given in this argument are that of guru sahibs horse and of bhai joga singh ji. i believe both have been discussed on this forum in the past. If maharajh would himself adopt the image of a mughal guard and stop bhai joga ji going into the 'nachan wali' house or kotha as it is known then what makes you think it is acceptable to go to such a place today?

You go to the pub with your work colleagues, i dont. When they go they at first asked me to come along, when i explaied why i dnt go they were fine and now they dnt ask me to come to those places. But if they are going to a restaurant sanich bar etc somewhere where perhaps i would be more suited then they ask. Whether i go or not is my choice, i am not afraid of what they will say if i refuse to go with them, or whether it will affect my career prospects etc. One shoudl have enough faith in vaheguru to know that if you stick by your principles guru ji will assist you.

Again sorry but sa true mark of a sikh is not to resist temptation whilst being surrounded by it at all! If that was the case then why didnt the guru sahiban's ever send loads of their sikhs to these kothe or dens etc to see if they were true sikhs? The gurus set up darbars for the worship of vaheguru whilst sitting in SADHSANGAT, a mark of a true gursikh is one who searches for sadhsangat to jaap naam. Not one who goes to clubs and pubs!

Another point i disagree on is that battle is the hardest situation. not at all. It is by far harder to control the five thieves than it is to pick up arms and go to battle! it is by far harder to sing vahegurus praises than it is to fight and die.

Ja koh har rang lago is jug me so kehyat he soora

Lets be honest why do you need to go to a club or a bar etc to meet people? Are you suggesting that people who dont go these places dont amke friends? Both sikh and non sikh, and perhaps i should add non-practicing sikh as well to this.

Whilst at uni we had many friends but didnt feel the need to go to bars to make them.

People always use the example of guru nanak dev ji, well if you are on the level of guru nanak dev ji then ill mutha tekh to you. Guru nanak dev ji was vaheguru themselves (for those that dont believe that, at least you will say that he was 100% perfect). It was his JOB to save the world! WE are here to be saved, not to walk around in our ego thinking that we can do as the gurus did! How many of us have that much control over our vices? How many have the bhagti of guru ji who was able to save those people from those places? I bet most of us cant go through a day without kaam hitting us in some way or other even if in just the smallest measure! So how can you ever argue that we shoudl do as the gurus did?

Yeh your right its not about being comfortable, being comfortable is going with the grain, following the crowd doing as everyone else does, not sticking out. But a sikh will go against the grain if need be, if 100 people say yes, he will stick to his guns and shout NO. being uncomfortable is answering numerous questions as to why u dont go clubbing, why you wont go into a bar etc. Being comfortable is just going along with everyone.

Im sorry to say brother, but it seems that you ahve competely made your mind up on this topic from reading your post and as such im sure you will totally disagree with everything i have said above.

However a sikh does not shut himself off from society but nor does he live in the dirt. Seek the sangat of the holy and dharmi, why would you voluntarily go to places where you may fall prey? that is not bravery it is stupidity, and guru gobind singh ji did not mean forhis singhs to be stupid!

ps strip club comments are not stupid, i know of 'dastaar wale' sorry i refuse to call them singhs, who went to some strip clubs, and one of the girls (of black descent) working at the bar knew them and a friend of mine, and she told him that she had never expected to see 'baptised sikhs' there. she actually asked them what they were doing there. similar again a mona friend of mine at a club one night saw a guy wearing a huge blue dumalla, my friend although not practicing himself was livid with anger at why this chap was in the club wearing the iamge of the guru! the guy in the dumalla was lucky he was intorduced to that other side of clubbing.. that being a glass bottle smashed in his face!

anyway just my views as shared by virtually all the singhs i now

[randip singh]

Randip Singh, sorry but i have to completely disagree with you.

122953[/snapback]

Re read what I have said, before making judgement.

I’m not saying go out night clubbing or spend all your times in pubs. What I am saying is don’t let situations like that dissuade you from meeting new people, and especially letting other people see that you are a Sikh.

Where did guru gobind singh ji tell us not worry about going to places like this? even when alcohol is being served consumed etc?

122953[/snapback]

Hold on…..Guru Gobind Singh Ji can baptise Kalals, brewers and servers of alcohol into his fold, so clearly he did not have a problem with the people who undertook into the Khalsa brotherhood.

Before you get too condemning read what I have have said again. Situations should not dissuade you from going there.

You are making and comment on and condemning a culture which is different from yours. The clergy in England do not have a problem with pubs, so who are we to come along and tell them that they are wrong in what they do.

Pubs in the UK today are firstly places where food is served and people socialise, and rapidly becoming secondly places where people drink, and smoke (which will be banned soon).

Nobody is forcing alcohol down your throat and if they did to me, I would tell them where to go. Are you telling me you do not attend weddings where alcohol is present either?

Regarding withdrawing from the world, he is not doing that at all, he has simply realised the fake illusion that is the world and has chosen the path of the gurmukh as oppossed to follwoing the herds of sheep like others do.

122953[/snapback]

So the world is a fake illusion?

So much for the Temporal concept in Sikhi…………we might as well ignore that and walk around saying……the world is an illusion. The world is very real my friend………..but the pursuits many undertake in the world (5vices) are an illusion.

The two usual sakhi's given in this argument are that of guru sahibs horse and of bhai joga singh ji. i believe both have been discussed on this forum in the past. If maharajh would himself adopt the image of a mughal guard and stop bhai joga ji going into the 'nachan wali' house or kotha as it is known then what makes you think it is acceptable to go to such a place today?

122953[/snapback]

Which sakhi’s? Who wrote them? Are they in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

The Sakhi’s were NOT written by the Guru’s, and that a historical fact. Infact you would have trouble finding one written actually at the time of the Guru’s.

Again, this story refers to a prostitutes house, hardly “Jongleurs” or a Jazz Bar.

You go to the pub with your work colleagues, i dont. When they go they at first asked me to come along, when i explaied why i dnt go they were fine and now they dnt ask me to come to those places. But if they are going to a restaurant sanich bar etc somewhere where perhaps i would be more suited then they ask. Whether i go or not is my choice, i am not afraid of what they will say if i refuse to go with them, or whether it will affect my career prospects etc. One shoudl have enough faith in vaheguru to know that if you stick by your principles guru ji will assist you.

122953[/snapback]

I sometimes CHOOSE to go, and sometimes CHOOSE not to. I weigh up the situation and the pro’s and con’s. If it is a classy place with out cigarette smoke and good food, I will go. If it is a drinking hole, aimed at low end drunkards, I stay away.

It’s sweet FA to do with career prospects as many of them rely on ME for their career prospects.

Again sorry but sa true mark of a sikh is not to resist temptation whilst being surrounded by it at all! If that was the case then why didnt the guru sahiban's ever send loads of their sikhs to these kothe or dens etc to see if they were true sikhs? The gurus set up darbars for the worship of vaheguru whilst sitting in SADHSANGAT, a mark of a true gursikh is one who searches for sadhsangat to jaap naam. Not one who goes to clubs and pubs!

122953[/snapback]

Here we go again. ridiculous examples.

What the hell has a pub got to do with a prostitutes den?

There are different types of pubs and clubs. I sometimes go to comedy clubs (heard of Jongleurs), or maybe the Fiddle and Bone (a pub) to hear a live Jazz Funk band. Both classy places associated with clean living people. The latter serves excellent food (even a good one for vegetarians).

If a Sikh wants to go to a strip club, then that is his choice, but obviously he has a problem with Kaam. Going to a pub or club to listen to live music does not mean I have a problem with Kaam.

Another point i disagree on is that battle is the hardest situation. not at all. It is by far harder to control the five thieves than it is to pick up arms and go to battle! it is by far harder to sing vahegurus praises than it is to fight and die.

122953[/snapback]

Are you trying to tell me when all those Shaheeds martyred themselves for Sikhi, knowing full well they were going to die, that that was not hard?

What about those that died in the 1984 massacre at the Golden Temple?

I agree it is hard to control the 5 thieves, but to battle for rightousneous is not wrong and can test the mettle of any human being.

When all other means fail, it may be necessary to draw the sword

Ja koh har rang lago is jug me so kehyat he soora

Lets be honest why do you need to go to a club or a bar etc to meet people? Are you suggesting that people who dont go these places dont amke friends? Both sikh and non sikh, and perhaps i should add non-practicing sikh as well to this.

122953[/snapback]

You are right! You don’t have to go to a pub or a club to meet people, BUT why deny yourself a chance to meet people, or maybe go to a classy place with good music, good food and good intelligent conversation, where you can explain to people you might not normally meet, what Sikhism is all about.

Like I’m saying above, don’t go out of your way to go to pubs and clubs, but don’t dismiss it either.

Whilst at uni we had many friends but didnt feel the need to go to bars to make them.

122953[/snapback]

Neither did I, but I met some very interesting and stimulating people there from many faiths.

I got to see live music like Oasis, Manic Street Preachers etc. Great comedy acts, and plays about social comment.

People always use the example of guru nanak dev ji, well if you are on the level of guru nanak dev ji then ill mutha tekh to you. Guru nanak dev ji was vaheguru themselves (for those that dont believe that, at least you will say that he was 100% perfect). It was his JOB to save the world! WE are here to be saved, not to walk around in our ego thinking that we can do as the gurus did! How many of us have that much control over our vices? How many have the bhagti of guru ji who was able to save those people from those places? I bet most of us cant go through a day without kaam hitting us in some way or other even if in just the smallest measure! So how can you ever argue that we shoudl do as the gurus did?

122953[/snapback]

Stop making incredibly absurd statements. Where have I claimed to be on the same level as Guru Nanak?

Why follow any example of the Guru’s. Why have the 5 K’s? Why follow Bani? Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru and we try and do what the Guru’s say to us to the best of out abilities.

If we stand around thinking, it is Gods job to save the world, then we will be waiting for ever. We are the vessels of God. God is within each and every one of us. Once you realise that you become Gurmukh, and try and carry out God’s will.

All the institutions of Sikhism are set up to do things outwardly. It is pure cowardice to think that we as Sikhs are incapable of doing anything.

Yeh your right its not about being comfortable, being comfortable is going with the grain, following the crowd doing as everyone else does, not sticking out. But a sikh will go against the grain if need be, if 100 people say yes, he will stick to his guns and shout NO. being uncomfortable is answering numerous questions as to why u dont go clubbing, why you wont go into a bar etc. Being comfortable is just going along with everyone.

122953[/snapback]

A Sikh will stick to his guns, that true, and for me, no one forces me, or persuades me to do something which I do not see is Ok with Sikhism.

If I want to go to see a live band at a club, I go. If I want to got to the local Wine Bar for lunch, I go. If I don’t then I don’t want to go.

And I don’t moralise over other people’s choice to go.

Im sorry to say brother, but it seems that you ahve competely made your mind up on this topic from reading your post and as such im sure you will totally disagree with everything i have said above.

122953[/snapback]

Actually, I don’t totally disagree, because we are all at different stages of our lives. If you were a 16 year old kid, I would ask your motivations for going into pubs and clubs. For 99% it is best they don’t.

However a sikh does not shut himself off from society but nor does he live in the dirt. Seek the sangat of the holy and dharmi, why would you voluntarily go to places where you may fall prey? that is not bravery it is stupidity, and guru gobind singh ji did not mean forhis singhs to be stupid!

122953[/snapback]

Dirt? Whats with all the moralising?

Are you saying most people in the UK live in dirt?

Are you saying going to a club to watch a live band is living in dirt? Or maybe going the Mail Box (Birmingham), to a Tapas Bar for food is living in dirt?

Get off your high horse and stop being judgemental.

ps strip club comments are not stupid, i know of 'dastaar wale' sorry i refuse to call them singhs, who went to some strip clubs, and one of the girls (of black descent) working at the bar knew them and a friend of mine, and she told him that she had never expected to see 'baptised sikhs' there. she actually asked them what they were doing there. similar again a mona friend of mine at a club one night saw a guy wearing a huge blue dumalla, my friend although not practicing himself was livid with anger at why this chap was in the club wearing the iamge of the guru! the guy in the dumalla was lucky he was intorduced to that other side of clubbing.. that being a glass bottle smashed in his face!

anyway just my views as shared by virtually all the singhs i now

122953[/snapback]

The strip club comments are stupid.

Its like saying because people are vegetarians they should also eat bark.

You cannot compare decent pubs and clubs to dives and strip bars.

[Dhan Teri Sikhi]

The gurus set up darbars for the worship of vaheguru whilst sitting in SADHSANGAT, a mark of a true gursikh is one who searches for sadhsangat to jaap naam. Not one who goes to clubs and pubs!

:doh: :doh:

[Dhan Teri Sikhi]

You are right! You don’t have to go to a pub or a club to meet people, BUT why deny yourself a chance to meet people, or maybe go to a classy place with good music, good food and good intelligent conversation, where you can explain to people you might not normally meet, what Sikhism is all about.

Many people may not prefer classy places and may prefer the Gurdwara - Guru Jee's house.

Someone may not prefer good food - and may prefer Guru Jee's langar. :doh:

Some people may not prefer good music - and may prefer listening and singing to Guru Jee's bani. :doh:

Some people may prefer to meet Guru Jee's sangat - instead of meeting random people in pubs and clubs. :doh:

In relation to the comment what is wrong with going to pubs, you could have intelligent conversations and tell people about Sikhi...

But I think there are so many other places where parchar on Sikhi could be done and not in pubs. Its being hypocritcical telling people about Sikhi in an environment where alcohol and meat is served and cigarettes smoked.