Nishaan Sahab

[Quest4Akal]

Please can we refrain from one word lines and can i get some informative feedback.

I was reading some comments on another thread about bowing to some pictures and what not when i came across on post that talked about not bowing to the pictures or nishaan sahabs. Got me thinking..

Is it right? I'm double minded on this topic. I would like to the sangats views. Please can you back up your statements with thought out arguments.

On one hand we are only supposed to bow to the supreme Guru (GURBANI). But on the other hand i think if people are showing respect to the nishaan sahab, depending on why they are doing, it might be justified.

Heres what i mean. Say when someone gazes upon the nishan sahib but they don't just see a flag, which sad to say most of us do. No they see the sacrifces of all the shaheeds for us to have these nishaan sahib flying all over the world. They see the respect for Guru ji through these nishaan sahabs. They say the spilt blood of gursikhs for us to have these nishaan sahibs flying high across the globe. And with all these thoughts in mind he puts his hands together and puts his matha on the platform thanking guru ji with each swaas for letting him have darshan of this beautiful symbol of justice and religious freedom. A symbol where anyone and everyone can come under to eat without being looked down upon or turned away. A symbol where people flock to get knowledge of the enternal truth from the Guru. A symbol of many wonderful and awe inspiring things. What if these thoughts compell the person to bow down. Is it wrong?

Ok second example what if someone just comes and sees others bowing to it so he does the same. Is this right? Probably not. Why is it wrong? Because he does not know why he is doing it. He is just following along with the crowd. Like the hindus giving water to the sun. Bowing only your body to something will ultimatly lead you astray. Bow your full mind body and soul to the truth will get you on your way to sach khand.

So another question comes to mind what if you bow only your body to the ultimate truth (Gur Granth Sahib Ji). What if you just matha tekh cause everyone else is doing this? Is thie considered idol worship? You are bowing to truth eternal, however in your mind it is just a book, is this right or wrong? If it is wrong then what do u suggest people do, not bow when they come? If you believe it is ok to bow only with ur body to Guru ji (but it in your mind u don't believe that guru ji is present) then explain how it isn't idol worship?

Sorry sangat ji for the long post. Its just when i get started i can't stop. Having said that, one last question. If the khanda was made in maharaja ranjit singh ji's time. What used to be on our nishaan sahib. And is it justified to have the khanda on our nishaan sahib now?

I just want to let the sangat know i'm not trying to cause conterversy I actually want to know the views of the sangats on these questions.

so let me summerize.

What if these thoughts compel the person to bow down. Is it wrong?

What if you just matha tekh cause everyone else is doing this?

Is thie considered idol worship?

If it is wrong then what do u suggest people do, not bow when they come?

If you believe it is ok to bow only with ur body to Guru ji (but it in your mind u don't believe that guru ji is present) then explain how it isn't idol worship?

If the khanda was made in maharaja ranjit singh ji's time. What used to be on our nishaan sahib. And is it justified to have the khanda on our nishaan sahib now?

[sher_panjabi]

>>>What if these thoughts compel the person to bow down. Is it wrong?

We believe only in "Pooja Akaal Ki" and bow our heads to the one who we submit our thinking and mat to. How can you submit your mat to a photo? or idol? We bow our head to the Shabd Guru and ask "Meri Math Thooree Raam..." we ask for Gurmat and physically express that we are sacrificing our thinking to the Guru.

>>>>What if you just matha tekh cause everyone else is doing this?

The whole point of matha tekhna is to submit our thinking and 'mat'. If matha tekh is done robotically and no meaning is in it when a person does it, then do you think we will gain anything? will we able to learn something when we have not submitted our ego and mind?

>>>>Is thie considered idol worship?

Matha Tekhna is not "Pooja". Sikhs observe "POOJA AKAAL KI".

>>>>If it is wrong then what do u suggest people do, not bow when they come?

Bowing is a form of respect to the Guru in his darbaar, whoever has Shardaa to do this should be allowed to do so. Who are we to question anyone's intentions in doing Matha Tekhna?

>>>>If you believe it is ok to bow only with ur body to Guru ji (but it in your mind u don't believe that guru ji is present) then explain how it isn't idol worship?

Only God know what people think inside there. Best to think about ourselves first, and evaluate ourself rather than scrutinising others who wish to pay respects to Guru Ji.

>>>>If the khanda was made in maharaja ranjit singh ji's time. What used to be on our nishaan sahib. And is it justified to have the khanda on our nishaan sahib now?

Guru Pyaari'o the Nishan Sahib was used during Guru Nanak Ji's time. Nishan Sahibs were put up at Dharam-saals (early form of Gurdwara), place where people would gather to do Saadh Sangat and Keertan.

The Nishan Sahib used to be Kesri (yellow) colour (as today) with a "Ek-Ounkaar" as the "Nishaan" (mark on the flag).

Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji, the Sixth Nanak, introduced Miri-Piri (combing religion and temporal dimensions). Guru Sahib created the Khanda, representing this exact concept, and furthemore the building of Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib contrasted Miri-Piri, with Sri Darbaar Sahib being a manifestation of spirituallity and Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib being a manifestation of temporaral sovereign matters. So Guru Hargobind Sahib ji developed the Nishan Sahib and incorporated the Khanda on to it, as in its present form.

[DhadiMania]

i always thought you can say at least fateh to the nishaan sahib, according to bhai rama singh jis book, it says we should always acknowledge the nishaan sahib as...

1) Shaheed Singhs laid their lives down for it

2) they still protect it to date.

while we are at the topic of doing matha theek, i have hve noticed on alpha folk doing matha theek to the dukh bhanjani beri, ber baba budhaa and other stuff.

my question to the sangat is, is this ok?

actually, i am actually confused here. on one hand we have folk saying we should only do matha theek to SGGS

why is it the same folk say its important to do matha theek to shasters?

gustaphi maaf

[sher_panjabi]

In regards to Nishan Sahib we don't worship it - we do "Salaami" to it.

Salaamee means "saluting". We salute the nishaan sahib by folding our hands and saying "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh".

The Nishan Sahib is a Nishaana, sign of the Sikhi and the Sikh Sovereignty.

A Nishan represents that Guru's Darbaar is here.

A Nishan represents that Guru-Ka-Langar is here.

A Nishan represents that Shabd- Da Langar is here.

A Nishan represents Sikh Sovereignty & Freedom.

So when we see a Nishan Sahib out of reverence and appreciation, we say the 'Fateh' and lower head. This is our "Salaamee" to the Nishan Sahib.

All major Gurdwaras and historical Gurdwaras in Panjab and Delhi have a sign near the Nishan Sahib saying "please do not Matha Tekh to Nishan Sahib".

The British do not worship their flag - they salute it. They salute it by putting up their arm. This is their practice of "Salaamee"

[DhadiMania]

wicked post manveer siya!

still doesnt answer why sikhs do matha theek to shasters.

i was having a debate with a singh at school, saying you can bow to sants, otherwise sants would never let you do their matha thek (im still confused because some sants that affix "khalsa" to their name still allow folk to do their matha theek?)

anyhow, the singh went on saying "no only to SGGS"...the debate never got far.

anyhow, maharaj said that there were 3 roops of him

1) SGGS

2) Shasters

3) Panj Pyare

i can understand maharaj saying i am in sggs and panj (SGGS because the gurus wrote in it "dhur ki bani aye, tin sagli chint mitaye" and panj because they were the first who would give their head to guru ji. plus they have done mass sewa and simran) but then why did maharaj say his roop was in a shaster also?

gustaphi maaf

[N30S1NGH]

I would matha takh to Nishan Sahib.

[disguised]

same here.. i dont see anything wrong with it??

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

i think if we think of sikhs as a quam or anation it makes it more clear. every nation has a flag which it salutes. When we meet other sikhs we solute each other with Fateh and hold our hands pressed together and do a slight bow. The sikhs nation's ardas we say chaunkia jhande bunge jugo jug atal...these things prove that sikhs are not just a religious community but a nation. Our nation's nishaan or flag is sri nishaan sahib which people solute.

When the khalsa raised the nishaan sahib at the red fort, what did that mean? the red fort was not a gurughar. The nishaan sahib is a symbol of our quam, the nishaan of our sovereignty as illustrted by sri akaal takhat sahib.

bhul chuk muaaf.

[Quest4Akal]

In regards to Nishan Sahib we don't worship it - we do "Salaami" to it.

Salaamee means "saluting". We salute the nishaan sahib by folding our hands and saying "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh".

The Nishan Sahib is a Nishaana, sign of the Sikhi and the Sikh Sovereignty.

A Nishan represents that Guru's Darbaar is here.

A Nishan represents that Guru-Ka-Langar is here.

A Nishan represents that Shabd- Da Langar is here.

A Nishan represents Sikh Sovereignty & Freedom.

So when we see a Nishan Sahib out of reverence and appreciation, we say the 'Fateh' and lower head. This is our "Salaamee" to the Nishan Sahib.

All major Gurdwaras and historical Gurdwaras in Panjab and Delhi have a sign near the Nishan Sahib saying "please do not Matha Tekh to Nishan Sahib".

The British do not worship their flag - they salute it. They salute it by putting up their arm. This is their practice of "Salaamee"

129461[/snapback]

Thanks singh this helps a lot. I never thought of the difference between bowing and salamee. I personally do give respect to the nishaan sahib. Thanks to the other post about my other questions. I guess it goes back to my personal belief of not judgin anyone for any reason. And i guess we should leave it at that. Let people dow aht they believe is right. And let us lead by example. Thank you to everyone who took time out to reply.

[dreamman]

To me bowing to nishaan sahib is all followed by people seeing others doing that... coz nishan sahib is only symbol to represent that this place is guru ghar. the principle importance of nishan sahib came during the ghaznavi assaults on india and since singhs are the only one stopping them at that time during night times when they trying to send the loot back to their country, so people jst feel themselves secure after seeing nishan sahib that here will be sikh place where i can have a secure stay without any fear. So nishan sahib is the symbol to represent that here is guru ghar. Rest you can assocaite alot more things to it like the persons who laid their life for keeping it flying high. THink of it, respecting your symbol is the feeling which is there in us, coz they represents the guru ghar, if that is lost means it represents guru ghar is lost..... so that why it is important... but this doesnt make nishan sahib a guru, as guru ji told us to bow only in front of guru granth sahib ji...yes with respect u can bow to anybody like we do to our elders.

regardin bowing in front of guru ji, isour way of giving regard and paying our respect to guruji, by getting nivan in front of him. yes when this is not done with a pure mind, that means u r mentally not present there although u r physically present there, means nothing. but still it doesnt mean that we are bowing in front of a idol etc... the two feelings and questions are separate and should not be confused.

regarding khanda, where it is written that it came into being during maharaja ranjit singh time, if this is true, with wat shastra guru gobind singh ji churned the holy amrit on 1699 vaishakhi day??

bowing to shastra is our respect given to them since those are related to our guru. otherwise there is no reason bowing to shahstra.

Fateh