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what you mean like this or like this (ordinary run of the mill akj fanatic ???) or maybe this one abotu Sant Jarnail Singh where he calls him a militant maybe you were referring to nidars fanatical hatred of Gurmukh AKJ singhs doing gurbani kirtan... or maybe like this nah this is probably what cisco singh means by "intelligently disprove" someone so Shaheed Bhai Fauja singh is a "fanatic militant" because he saved a Hindu woman from being molested by the police and he tried to bring people who had done beyadbee of Guru Granth Sahbi Ji to justice ??? I am sorry, but I am with Fauja Singh on this one... Nidars students love to go around playing the discrimination and hater card on everyone - have you ever read their own website. They don't like it when their Gurdev is talked about in a derogatory way. He has over the past ten years ridiculed, insulted us and the shaheeed singhs that we respect and love and who gave their lives for sikhi. They can not be here to defend their honour and name, but we are here and we are ready to insult nidar back consistently, we are not doing anything that nidar has not already done. so look in the mirror before you throw a stone.....

basically the letter is not a fake - I have confirmed with Baba Joginder Singh when he was in the UK few weeks ago, Giani Kirpal Singh of Stratford Road Gurdwara Sparkhill (a chardi klaa HariaVela Nihang) phoned Baba Nihal Singh ji and he confirmed that he signed the letter and added that he was disappointed that the letter wasn't issued earlier. Mohan Singh of the Sikh Awareness Society also phoned Baba Harnam Singh Of Damdami Taksal and Sant Samaaj and he confirmed that yes I did sign this letter, which just leaves two we have left to confirm. In light of the above mentioned letter and publicity of nefarious teachings on his website, Last Monday 29th October Nidar's Classes at Somerset Road Gurdwara were immediately cancelled by the Gurdwara Committee. Nidar threw a hissy fit and refused to leave, he tried to bully the Committee, but they were old school Solid Babey who were not afraid and went into his class and informed everyone that this is the last class that will take place, please do not return for the class last week. Nidar Singh in defiance said that he would defy the committees wishes and return with 30 of his students to force his way into the Gurdwara and hold his class, the Old School Babey said "if you going to come then you better be ready for us" I commend the Somerset Road Gurdwara committee as they did not know anything about this Nidar Singh and as soon as they found out they took action. So to support the Gurdwara comittee a group of like minded Peaceful Sikhs will be convening on Somerset Road Gurdwara on Monday 5th November at 7pm to show our support for the Gurdwara and make sure that the Gurdwara Comittee are not bullied or pushed around for doing their duty as Gurdwara Sevadars and protecting the sangat. We are requesting all the sangat to turn up to the Gurdwara and let us show our support to the Gurdwara and in peaceful manner protest against the snatan Hindu-Sikh cult which is insulting to both Sikhs and Hindus. If he does come he will be trespassing and will be dealt with. The sangat not allow Nidar into our Gurdwaras. If Nidar does turn up he will be politely and peacefully removed. Gur Bar akaaal! Sat Sree Akaal

I disagree with "sex is for babies only". Food is to keep you nourished yet how many on here have indulged by eating chocolate, samosas, biscuits etc? These can be considered unnecessary too. Yet we eat them. They're distributed in the Gurdwara. For what purpose other than pleasure? How many eat parathas? How many butter their rotis? Sex, like everything else, needs to be in moderation. Just like eating junk food all day long is bad for your health, constantly thinking and indulging in sex is just as bad for your mind. Which is the lesser of evils: birth control to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, or abortion for an unwanted pregnancy?

The Singh Sabha was a reaction to the growth of the Arya Samaj in the Punjab and the attacks on Sikhs by Brahmins. If the Singh Sahibians were so pro British why were so many martyered by the British in the Gurdwara reform movement? I dont see any record of Nihangs going on mass to oppose British control on Sikhs shrines, in fact the New Indian Nihangs support the Mahants who were very much part of the British colonial system. Some major confusion in the revisionist historians of the period.

Yes jimmy saville seemed like a nice guy too....

GURU roop Sadh Sangat jeeo, Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh. Caste system realy needs to be eradicated from Sikhi. But no one is doing some thing for practical implication of the same and everybody just talks ,gives quotes from Gurbaani . Can any body from so called higher castes can marry his daugtrer/son to a boy /daughter from so called lower caste? If yes, it is O.K. and if no , please forgive me , we are only so called Sikhs or BHEKHI SIKHS and not real SIKHS. I being an Amritdhari ,wanted to marry an Amritdhari SIKH Girl in 1979-80 and advertised in a leading Punjabi news papper mentioning especially "Caste no bar"but got response from only 2 references one was from Sandhu Jats and another from Ahluwalia family.Because I had decided for inter caste marriage and that too without dowry and with Baraat of only 5 persons including Myself ,Ihad no option other than the Ahluwalia familys Girl who ( now my SINGHANI )was Amritdhari too. Though I had to make all out and very hard efforts to get my mother agreed for it. One of my brothers daughter has married a boy from RAVIDASIA family and the farher of the girl who is my elder brother ,though participared in the marriage and has also perfomed the Rasam of PALLA PHARANA, is not in talkative terms with his daughter and her husband and does not allow the couple to enter his house. I call him BEIMAAN because is hostile in the court of SIKHI and GURU by participating the marriage ceremony in the presence of GURU GRANTH SAHIB as father of the Girl but now hasitates to accept the relationship due to society. So to eradicate the caste system from SIKHI we shall have to be bold enough to accept rather welome such stories. Bhul chuk Khnma Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

jeez man. calm down. you're acting as if you believe god is some vengeful angry old man in the sky. just go to the panj pyare tell them what you did and do what they tell you to. just do simran and stop the willy tugging. we dont have a angry god. god loves you, just have faith do ardas and you will be forgiven.

I agree with original poster, some women go over the top with their clothes, they can wear a cardigan over top if they feel its revealing, but nooo, its going to ruin the wedding pics and video I guess. I dont like the low back suits at all, even elder women wear them, which look ridiculous... Im not really a backwards person, but do know what to wear a the gurdwara, whether its a wedding or not, and if women do not the difference between a gurdwara and a reception hall then they have a lot of learning to do.

There is a Guru Nanak Academy for High school students in Smethwick and there is a Nishkam High on Soho Road. There is also a new primary school named Anand Primary which is gonna open in Wolverhampton next year or so.

Imagine if it was a Catholic Chuch?! :wow: They have enough problems regarding such circumstances! :nono: I suggest you go to confession! "Amen" to that!! :lol2:

ahahahahahahhaha. "pulled your willy out and jacked off" loooooooooooooooool. i'm so immature! why would you even jack off in a church? where would you even do it??!? this is weird. what if a priest walked in and saw you do it? l0000000l

Do any of the Singhs know more about Nidar Singh's background? 2 things strike me as very strange, and may help in understanding how he became to be what he is. I'm curious because it will also shed some light potentially on those who have helped him become what he is, and we should also be aware of them, especially if they are in the UK. 1. Nidar Singh claims he spent 11 years in Punjab starting 1984. Ordinarily this wouldn't be an issue, but, anyone who visited or lived in Punjab or India in the 1984 - 1997 period knows that during the peak Kharku Lahir years, Sikh boys and men would routinely get picked up, asked to come to the village dharamsala for a random inspection etc, and harassed if there was ANY inkling of political leanings. I find it highly surprising that a 18-year old British Sikh who was in India under the pretence of 'Learning a Martial Art' managed to stay undetected in Punjab for 11 years. He would have been the first one to get picked up when the Police were doing rounds of the village, as they would have said "Oh Munda England Toh Aiya, koi Gatka Sikhan". If he didn't get picked up, then who was protecting him? NO ordinary Sikh was immune to harassment in that period, except Cats and other plants. 2. Look at the picture of Nidar Singh after he comes back to UK in 1995 to get married in the Sun article here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3922113/.html. This picture is with his wife and daugther, so it is at least 1996, or possibly even 1997 as his daughter looks about 1 year old. Why is it that after spending 11 Years in a Nihang Dal and following their Maryada, and subsequently another 2 years in the UK, he is wearing a Punjab-Pagh, and sporting a Gatra over his shoulder? Is this not the exact type of Sikh Image he now spends his time criticising? Did Nidar actually come back from Punjab believing the stuff he is spouting today, or did he change sometime between 1995 and 2000? And if so, then who in the UK helped him transition? We all know that he originally started with 'Hatka', 'Jhatka Gatka' etc and morphed into his SV today - who in the UK helped him on that transition, because having heard him speak and write, I don't believe he is intellectually capable of doing that all by himself.

There are many decent honourable Sikhs highlighting & fighting for justice but resources are limited, our religion is small, contained mainly within one geographical area in the world, the Akal Takht and the SPGC are out of sync with the original message of the Gurus that is where the spiritual battle is being lost and our religion is losing it’s focus. When the Khalsa was created it was feared amongst the evil doers of the world, the Moghuls, Hindu Hill Rajas and the British declared an all out war on the righteous Sikhs. Acts of genocide were committed, lands were stolen (1947), the State declared an illegal civil war culminating in the events of 1984. Ours is not an easy religion to abide to, our Spiritual leaders asked us to put our own needs last and those of others first - Guru Teg Bahadur gave his life for the freedom of another religion. With this concept we are a gentlemanly religion in tune with humanity. We all know governments, institutes around the world do not represent righteousness so how do you appeal to the same corrupt organizations i.e. the state of India, the UN for legal recourse? At the end of the day the ‘stay of execution’ for Bhai Rajoana was a victory for the Khalsa. Stop the negativity, celebrate a victory and ready yourself mentally, physically and spiritually for continuing battles until the war is won. Long Live the Khalsa!

Vaah! Veer Taran Jeeo, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! You are doing good work and it is great to hear that the committee of Gurdwara Sahib stopped classes of Niddar Singh. If committees were aware of the garbage written on sites connected to Niddar Singh I'm sure they would be take action. Posting a picture of bhai Amolak Singh jee who has done so much parchar and seva of Sikhi with the words "pakhand kirtan" says it all. Bhai sahib has connected and inspired many towards Sikhi. Fine if one believes kirtan should be done in raags only this is fine. What is the need to slander Gursikhs at the same time? Why not post a picture of Nihangs who also do kirtan on harmonium without raag? If a Nihang Singh does kirtan without raag is it parvaan? This is the main problem. It is fine to disagree with Taksal or AKJ but their is a certain protocol one should follow. Slandering respected Gurmukhs will bear no fruit. Gursikhs of the past had big differences but they also had Naam, Bani and Rehat. They enshrined Gurbani in their hearts and therefore were able to have pyar with each other despite differences. Gursikhs of the past would never slander Shaheed Singhs. Satguru Mehar Karan. Veer Taran jeeo, have you contacted any other Gurdwara Sahibaan were these classes take place. What has been their reaction. It would be great if you could show them what is written on websites connected to Niddar Singh. Also it is important that we can verify that indeed the letter in regards to Niddar Singh is authentic and signatures are authentic. I urge Nihang Singhs to post a video from Nihang Jathedars to clear stance on Niddar Singh.

This thread is not about british/arya smaaj/colonialism so please start another thread the Radha Suamis also have some really good things written in their books, the namdharis also have a lot of gun in terms of raag vidya etc, darshan dassis also had a good sound foundation of equality to start off with.... all sects first hijack good sound arguments to get people on board... Nidar has clearly in the previous post i posted, insulted and ridiculed other Sikhs because he does not agree with them, so where is this universailty of snatanism and accepting welcoming nature of his students, it's just a front to get people on board. it seems that nidar hates most amritdhari sikhs except for nihangs and the nakli nirankaris who he refers to as "SANT NIRANKARI" he talks about it like it wasnt a bad thing he was just diferent so he broke off. Everyone knows nidar drinks and has turned up to teach class wreaking of alcohol. (source : oral history from 2 ex students) the whole way through nidar fails to tell of gurbachans speeches on the fateful day of 1978 that he would stand on Guru Granth Sahib ji and outdo Guru Gobind Singh ji by creating the Sat Sitarey. which is why soem sikhs like Bhai Fauja Singh were insulted and hurt so started a peaceful protest. Nidars version of events is clearly biased towards the Nakli NIrankaris, he includes non of the eyewitness accounts sayign that the nirankaris had gunmen ignored and hidden by the police in their encampment and at the end he states so 13 sikhs get shot on a peaceful protest and the singhs get blamed for the genocide has anyoen in nidars classes read this and compared it to actual historic accounts and where have they been over the past 30 years where its plain to see even according to amnesty international it is in fact the Sikhs who have had genocide carried out against them NIdar is fake and he has an agenda just because he piggy backed off the Nihang Dals maryada does not mean he is right, his true agenda is evident within his writing but its very subtle, and has over the years brainwashed more and more innocent people into his way of thinking. I agree with a lot of the Nihang stuff, but i am not that stupid that i cannot see the snake hiding very carefully in the flowers. Gur Bar Akaal !

The British could not care less about the health of Sikhism during their rule so trying to link the promotion of Sikhism with them is ridiculous. . The British after the Indian Mutiny were careful with all religions in case there was an anti British uprising again and promoted a 'Policy of Balance' between Hindus , Muslims and Sikhs. For example the Sikh institutions such as Khalsa College in Amritsar was set up after the Hindus built a university at Beneras and Muslims at Aligarh, it was hardly British support for Sikhs or promotion of the Singh Sabha.The taking of Amrit by soldiers by Sikh soldiers was a retention of the ceremony of the Khalsa army under Ranjit Singh. The British saw that this made a more disciplined soldier as they analysed why Sikhs were so superior soldiers to others after the Anglo Sikh wars 1845-49 and they found it was their religion, they saw this as a benefit to themselves but indirectly it helped the Sikhs. I have found some of the Harry Potter style stories that we should be praying to Deamons, Goblins and Witches by some of the New Indian Nihangs and attacking the saintly Sikhs who laid down their lives to free Nankana Sahib and Harimandar Sahib ( The Mahant gave Gen Dyer a Siropa after the Jallianwalla Bagh massacre) from the pro British Mahants and then calling them British supported quite offensive. What was different from todays India is that they did not prevent the promotion of taking of Amrit by Sikhs, they did not start sects/groups to undermine the Sikh religion.

So the red dot of inequal brahminism on nidars forehead and the Thrisul in his hand doesn't seem like any part of traditional Sikhi pre-Singh sabha to me! The KFC and Johnny walker in his belly don't seem like any part of traditional Sikhi pre-Singh sabha to me either!

That's the whole point...isn't it?

See, you strike on a very important topic there - what if the Arya Samaj guys didn't act like haughty a55holes? Most accounts appear to say that originally Sikhs were sympathetic and even supportive of the Samaj until they made their disparaging remarks about our faith and Gurus causing the reaction you mention. The reaction (naturally) was to distance themselves and we live in the legacy of this. Exploring this is important. It's more subtle than that, the British/Protestant influence people refer to is more on the theological plane and possibly a natural product of high ranked Singh Sabhians being educated in Christian colleges. Plus there is the whole matter of the general loyalty to the British. I'm not anti sabha, but I don't agree with suppressing historical truths because they are uncomfortable. Some of us know that the Amrit given to British recruits included a vow of loyalty to the British, which raises an eyebrow (look at Macauliffe's work for evidence). It's not only that, Brits also racialised Panjabi identity like it had never been before with their weak 'Aryan' and 'Scythian' theories - that still effects us today. It's a valid point to make that perhaps they manipulated the Khalsa identity for their own imperial agenda and achieved a certain degree of success in their objectives - as unpalatable as that statement may be for us today. I agree with your point about nihangs. I think the vast majority of the ones that were deep into their thing got shaheed in the later Lahore darbar campaigns against the Afghans in the NWFP - that's the picture contemporary records seem to paint anyway. Only a few seemed to have remained by the time of the Anglo-Sikh wars, most of whom probably got shaheed. I agree, there is even pictures of latter nihungs who would extol the British and preach loyalty to them - the ironic thing is that this stuff is in the 300 year book published by Niddar's friend Amandeep (who for the record I think did a good service to Sikhs with 'Siques, Tigers and Thieves'). Another thing some of you people need to realise is that critically reviewing the past isn't about trashing it, it's about learning lessons about positives and negatives. The original Singh Sabha had many positives as well as negatives in my eyes. I mean the movement produced some seriously influential people like Ganda Singh (the historian), Professor Sahib Singh etc. It helped popularise Panjabi/Gurmukhi literature. But we still need to ask questions and find out the truth. What I don't like about Niddar is his own 'vilification' approach which tries to demonise people of the past and not look at the situation and evaluate in context. His language is all wrong. BUT - that all said and done, the underlying point about pre and post Singh Sabha Sikh worldviews - how they may have come to differ and how they remained constant too is a subject EVERY LAST intelligent, conscious Sikh should be interested in! We just need to frame our research, discussions in dispassionate, gentlemanly, intelligent language - which, let's be frank, isn't our quom's (or my own) strong point.

Great post Raj Karega Khalsa Ji, I just wanted to add further on your point below: Human body is full of energy points in different chakras. In marriage, if both couples have mutual understanding and have some desire to progress in spiritual sikhi, one does not need to do bhog to sustain there relationship. It's quite possible to channel one's sexual energy push it upwards towards trikurti chakra where one can utilize this energy towards naam simran and there is jog like sanjam kriya to help with this too. I think the key here, mutual understanding between couples and if both agree and very serious on the path of spirituality, they can easily give up bhog by channeling sexual chakra upwards so it could be utilize else where naam simran..at the end of day to put in contrast- anand one gets from bhog is small drop of anand compare to bhagti/naam ras anand which is huge sea of anand compare to bhramgyan which is endless ocean of anand..who wants to get or dwell around drop of anand where one has potential to get ocean of anand..!!!!!!!!!!

I was about to like it when.... Prolly cause it has a lot of simple science and a good flow of reading + A nice username

^^ how the hell has that post got so many likes./

Thanks!!! I feel a lot younger now! :D

How can I NOT watch that film now that you've got me so intrigued about its contents! lol

isnt that the exact same thing he does

left hand in many cultures such as islam and india is the so called "dirty hand", the hand that is used to wipe your butt and stuff like that. so they keep the right hand clean for religious reasons etc. as a sikh you don't need to worry about clean or unclean hands, its a load of bs. no one has ever told me it is bad. i use both my hands to do things. i use my right hand to write but i eat with my left hand (roti and crisps things like that). god gave you 2 hands. use them!

Niddar is the ultimate salesman! He knows what the kids want are fairy stories and he just takes elements of fantasy stories like Star Wars, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings and even the Da Vinci Code. In Star Wars read Luke Skywalker as Niddar and Baba Mohinder Singh as Yoda. Maybe when Niddar went to India on holiday Baba Mohinder Singh thought.. the faarse is strong in him! It's easy to dissect his fairy stories. So we have to believe that Guru Nanak was the first to teach the martial art to Baba Buddha. If that had been the case then this would have been mentioned in the Janamsakhis which it clearly is not. There was no reason for the writers of the Janamsakhi to keep this 'fact' hidden especially as the SV only became a 'secret' martial art after 1849. Had SV been such a great martial art then surely it would have been inducted into the training regime of the Khalsa army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. If not his army then why not the armies of the Sikh states like Patiala, Faridkot, Jind or Nabha? If the British did issue shoot on sight orders against Nihangs which is very unlikely as there is no mention of such an order in the British records then there was many places that a Nihang could hide and carry on teaching SV in secret in Punjab. To think that SV survived 150 years and was about to die out until Niddar went on holiday to India is something that only a fool would believe. It is interesting that the only evidence offered for the history of SV on their website are transcripts of interviews with so and so Baba. Not much other evidence is offered. It is interesting to speculate that after calling his secret martial art 'Chatka Gatka' ( didn't Baba Mohinder Singh tell his the name of the secret martial art) for sometime he eventually called it SV.