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Guru Nanak Ji came to earth as the pure embodiment of Waheguru, I.e. not under any influence of maya. We came to earth, as embodiment of Waheguru, but under the influence of maya. As jeevs, Waheguru is under the influence of maya in that role, but at the same time, he remains detached: Electricity is powering my computer, the computer is not electricity, the computer is electricity roop. If I smash my computer, that will not affect the national grid electricity supply. Waheguru adopts the two roops, I.e. Sargun and nirgun. On a sunny day we place 100 buckets of water in the garden, the suns rays reflect in each bucket, that does not mean that there are 100 individual suns, there is only one sun, but 100 reflections. If we destroy one bucket, have we destroyed the sun? If we destroy all buckets, the sun still remains intact. Waheguru is within us, and separate at the same time. If you look in the mirror, you will see your face. If you look into 100 angled mirrors, you will see 100 of you, but in reality, you are one, not 100. Waheguru has the ability to ek and anek, at the same time. Just as the sun remains detached from the buckets of water, but gives its rays to the water, just as the 100 mirrors cause the illusion of you being 100; in the same way Wahegurus pritibimbh is within us, in reflection form, but separate, at the same time too... Waheguru...

That's the Beauty of Gurmat, Khalsa Ji, discussing views, bouncing ideas off each other; thank you too, for replies. As long as we can discuss things, without any bitterness, then all is well... Waheguru....

I love your analogies!

You doubt this sakhi saying that it is jooth.What basis you have to doubt this? If so present that here. Have you taken Amrit? If you had taken it, you should know that initiates take amrit from same bata by applying their lips. When last person takes it, bata goes again to first person. Tomorrow people who doubt our sakhis and gursikhs of past, will say this is jooth. Google and you will find where this sakhi comes from.If you doubt present your source of doubt.

If you read Ashtpadhi 21, Sri Sukhmani Sahib, that explains why Waheguru creates the us, and why he plays the game. He creates demons, and deities. As kids, when we wanted to play a game of cards, play chess etc, we had to find an opponent, otherwise the game couldn't be played. Why do people enjoy going into a maize? Why do people enjoy playing games? It's the same with Waheguru... It is a cruel world, in terms of pain and suffering, but there exists remedy too; Waheguru expects us to follow Gurbani. Guru Nanak Ji came to earth in the purest form. I.e. aap Naryan kala Dhaar...to show us the way to salvation. He creates 4 yugs, turn by turn, and then wraps everything up, until he wants to do it all over again. The world is a cruel place; perhaps that's why 10th Patshahi in Jaap Sahib describes Waheguru as kroor Karmeh. I.e. doer of cruel things, but Maharaj does namo to that aspect of Waheguru too... Waheguru....

Have you been fortunate enough to do their darshan? Sadly I haven't. I guess I've not been a good boy.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ I have a question about the Nitnem Steek from Damdami Taksal. It's written in the Steek that the in Christian believe it's written that the world is created in 7 days and on 8. day he did rest. But as far as I got told Christian believe that the world was created in 6 days and on the 7th days he did rest. Whats the sangats vichaar on that? The Steek is created by Bhai Avtaar Singh ji Badni Kala vale. (No Nindiya against Taksal or Bhai Avtaar Singh ji, just wanted to know on which base they say it) Bhul Chuk maaf karne. wjkk wjkf

Thanks, Khalsa Ji, for asking this question. I have learnt a lot from Sikhsangat.com, some things time to sink in, but I'm truly grateful. Waheguru..........

Meh hoo param purkh ka daasa; dekhan ayo Jagath tamasha....10th Patshahi... It is all a tamasha, and Naam is the only salvation. The beauty of Naam is that it starts to drown maya out, so eventually one is left with the Anand of Naam. The person still plays the worldly game, but now the the world is a playground, rather than a battlefield. Prisons are full of inmates, who have to abide by the rules and endure suffering. The prison has a Governor, security guards, and visitors; despite the latter being in prison, they're not there to suffer, they are free to come and go as they please. If you reas the last pankti of Ashpadhi 21, it says it's up to Waheguru whom he wants to play the game of maya, and whom he wants to play the game of Naam... Waheguru.....

I thank Bhai Sahib Ranjit Singh Ji for visiting Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Ji who is at the end of day 18 of a hunger strike unto death. By availing yourself before him you have helped maintain his Chardi Kalà..........for that the Sikh Panth thanks you.

self -edit, op clarified point of this post via pm.

There are some who prowl this forum to spoil threads. Sikhs used to partake charan amrit till tenth master.Missionaries mock it and propagate against it. So ignore such elements and continue the discussion. Sikhism is not Gurbani only.It is a combination of Gurbani, our history and traditions.

I am sorry that you believe Gurus Hukams and Punj Pyare Hukams are equivalent to the Christian 20 commandments. I can assure you that if you drop your vedic pigeon hole glasses that you will be able to see how they are on the contrary. You should find a different religion that accepts the vedic scriptures instead of constantly fighting with yourself. The shabad you present has nothing to do with this discussion, but then again that shabad can be applied to prove that killing a innocent child is right. You have an act for misquoting Gurbani. Try to develop the act to properly quoting Gurbani. Your Bhai Ghaniya ji example also does not stand here as you are expressing views from a vedic lense. The essence here is that you cannot substantiate your claim so you resorted to name calling. I know the world can be complex and you need to dumb it down to your intellectual level to make sense. However this does not help you, but just shows you are the frog in the well. So do you have any proof of the Sakhi?

In more recent times, a mahapurkh called Baba Fateh Singh Ji stayed at Sri Anandpur and would do seva all day in langar but eat nothing really. At the end of the day, Baba Fateh Singh Ji would pick up all the tiny pieces of langar off the floor (such as grains of dhaal, parshadaa pieces and other crumbs etc) and put them in a baataa (bowl). Then they would mix them together and compress them then eat them. This saint obtained Brahmgiani through only one with such an high avastha can do something like that. Please comment if name of Sant or other details are incorrect. Thanks.

St Andrew's Gardens in Gravesend likely to get statue of Sikh war hero Mahinder Singh Pujji Comments | 2 by Thom Morris tmorris@thekmgroup.co.uk Mahinder Singh Pujji in 1940 Heritage Quarter developers Edinburgh House has submitted new plans for a bronze statue on St Andrew’s Gardens, believed to be in memory of an Indian pilot.Plans state the “Pujji statue”, believed to be of Squadron Leader Mahinder Singh Pujji, will be installed in May 2014, ahead of the refurbishment plans for the gardens. A former squadron leader, Pujji was one of the first seven Sikhs accepted as a fighter pilot, and won the DFC for his actions in the Far East against the Japanese. He also served across Kent in the days after the Battle of Britain, and was stationed in Gravesend. He also made his home in The Grove, in the town. The statue will stand on a 5ft stone plinth and be about eight foot high. Mr Pujji died in 2010 at Darent Valley Hospital aged 92. The first phase of the £120m Heritage Quarter plans will see three buildings, with 141 flats, restaurants, a 50-bedroom hotel and underground car parks built, due to start early next year. Guest of honour Sqd Leader Mahinder Singh Pujji at North Kent Police Station, Northfleet in 2008. Developers said after about a year once phase one starts, a detailed application for the redesigned grounds for St George’s Church and St Andrew’s Gardens, and an enlarged St George’s Shopping Centre will be submitted. The father-of-three joined the RAF as a 22-year-old after spotting an advert in an Indian newspaper appealing for pilots in 1940. He flew 25 different types of aircraft, including Spitfires, Hurricanes and Tomahawks, and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for saving 300 American soldiers from Japanese troops in the Burmese jungle. Mr Pujji’s military achievements led him to meet Winston Churchill, Gandhi, King Farouk of Egypt, King George VI and Queen Elizabeth II. He won a gold medal for gliding, was a motor racing champion, a driving instructor and an air traffic controller at Heathrow. See next week's Messenger for more information.

Recently stumbled across this well directed film again, my son used to watch it frequently. Great for kids and captures their interest throughout. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-CqtWgzcGc

and I know many of the amritdhari/keshdhari/saabar soorats have given their heart(even their head) in the sewa of gurudwaras..........

Really? What would've been to reason to ask them to take off? Disrespect to Mercedes?

Waheguru Tunnel an old drainage pipe: SGPC Yudhvir Rana, TNN Nov 26, 2013, 05.23AM IST AMRITSAR: A Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) official has clarified that the tunnel-like structure discovered beneath the surface near the 'langar' hall of the Golden Temple in Amritsar was a drainage pipe laid in earlier times. SGPC additional secretary Diljit Singh Bedi told TOI, "After inspecting the mysterious structure, we found it to be a drainage pipe laid a few centuries ago, which has been covered now." A sewadar (worker) at the Golden Temple chanced upon a tunnel-like structure and a small room made of Nanakshahi bricks while digging near the 'langar' hall of the shrine. Initially, people believed that the tunnel was an ancient secret passage, which was used during the days of Maharaja Ranjit Singh or a passage to connect with other gurdwaras in the Holy City. Sources in SGPC told that in olden days there used to be a network of underground tunnels, which were used by messengers for delivering letters and other messages from Lahore to Delhi and were also used as secret passages in case of emergency. However, SGPC didn't take the advice of archaeological experts to ascertain whether the structures were of historical importance. A similar underground passage was discovered while digging in the area of Gurdwara Lohgarh located in the walled city in 2010 as well. It was then suggested that the tunnel was either a secret passage connecting Lohgarh Fort and Gobindgarh Fort or an ancient sewerage pipe but experts were not consulted. Conservator Rajnish Khosla questioned, "How can one reach at a logical conclusion without consulting experts?" He suggested that the tunnel discovered underneath should be covered with glass and preserved for future generations. "This could be a curious sight showcasing rich Sikh architecture for lakhs of devotees who visit Golden Temple everyday," said Khosla. Readers' opinions (1) Sort by:Newest|Oldest hamzaji () 26 Nov, 2013 03:40 PM "After inspecting the mysterious structure, we found it to be a drainage pipe laid a few centuries ago, which has been covered now." There was no sewage system with pipes a few centuries ago. Source: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-11-26/india/44485407_1_drainage-pipe-golden-temple-langar-hallWaheguru

I agree with your post above but I don't agree with your understanding of karama as you contradict yourself on the effects of having no karma. I understand what you are saying but it doesn't seem to me to be correct. I thank you for taking your time out to reply to my posts.

Yeh tell me about it. A lot of the stuff just goes way over my head :blush2: God's creation and attributes have no limit.. it's just too much to comprehend lol. To be frank my interpretation of naam has changed over the years as I have been using gurbani to test my understanding of naam and the meaning of it. I've come to the conclusion that understanding naam for even 1 sec burns all karma.. But that is another topic in itself and we could open a topic talking about what is naam? As I don't want to side track from this topic.

waheguru. i think i finally understood sargun nirgun.

Vaheguru

Was actually thinking of this and "The One". Yeah, I was actually starting to lean towards no free will despite posing that question/scenario because if literally everything in the Universe including experiences and whatnot in everyone in the Universe could be replicated (theoretically) an infinite amount of times, it should be the same. Then again when someone does Naam and recites Vaheguru's name don't they get rid of karam and start to merge back into Vaheguru even while alive? Only way to get out of karam and charasi lakh joon is through Guru Sahib. Good to see others thinking about these things lol, really is insane to think about especially considering how little we know and how massive even the observable Universe is. Who knows how many times we've lived and what we've seen in our previous janams. After a point i think there is only so much we can speculate on and rest depends on how much simran we do and answers may come then.

Nice post

mokham singh ji, i prefer your argument. i think of it as a game. god set a tamasha (guru nanak called it a play). god watches this game or play folding out. the aim of the game is to reunite with waheguru. in the way is maya, who stops us. maya attempts to break us down and stop us. but god wants us to make it. god protects players who ask him. so like bubbles from the ocean. the bubble wants to merge back. but maya locks the water in a bubble. we have to escape. this is naam simrans job. guru nanak came to break us out (miti dhund jag chanun hoa). so we play. some get influenced by karma. others wont. those who get bad karma and dnt win the game (unite with god) have to replay (reincarnation). the karm from previous lives determines the cards they are dealt with in the next. bad karam is worse cards. but we can all make it out if we get luck or kirpa done on us. "jo to prem khela ka chao". the game of love. we all play, but some lose to maya so they dnt step on the path and gove their ego up to guru sahib. late night thoughts :D. sorry if it makes no sense.

A Sikh celebrating another religion's holiday cannot be compared to a Sikh celebrating a holiday related to his Guru. If you are putting Christmas on par with a holiday related to the Guru by comparing the two it only reflects your state of mind. A Sikh is a Jeev Istri whose husband lord is the SatGuru. What kind of an istri celebrates the birthday of another person's husband? such a flirtatious istri has no respect in this world nor in the next.

Lol yeh really good question though I believe both action and thought are done by God. The decision in my opinion would be dependent on intellect of the individual. The intellect is based on a persons life experiences, what they have studied in life, their up bringing, their responses to the 5 senses etc etc. But like you said in the simulation they had all the same experiences and everything was the same. Therefore it would be likely to be the same action every time but I am also aware of each visual and sensory stimulus does not necessary cause the same action it could be one of many learnt actions. It would be like the matrix when neo is with the architect and they are looking at the screens determining the possible actions he will do next. But the question is who determines that particular action, which I believe to be God as thought and action occur hundredths of seconds before we become consciously aware of them. Yes that would be a great thing to do. I would also like to hear opposing views but the main reason I am against free will is that it if there was free will it would make God not all knowing... Also having no free will gives the solution to the karmic paradox I mentioned earlier. But I am always open to different opinions.

I highlighted my post because it was a directly reply to the post your quoted and from your reaction it seems it is your ego which has been wounded. Your ego could not even take a little bit if opposition to it's stand and burst into Krodh.

The question was actually mine, none of what I mentioned had anything to do with Sam Harris lol. What you replied is the basic argument that Sam Harris makes against free will if I'm not mistaken. I'm still not sure though, after we get the thought what exactly determines the decision and would it be the same if all the conditions in the Universe were exactly* the same and repeated an indefinite amount of time? Would they be the same every time? I'm thinking about starting a topic in intellectual thread and we can debate this where I post this situation and have people debate one side vs the opposing. What do you think?

Good question. The problem with choice is as I have bolded above in the quote is not under our control so to say we chose was never under our control in the first place. The way our brain works is we first get a thought and then after we have had the thought we become aware of the thought. Lets give a practical example when we do gurmantar repetition; let say we do this mentally and sometimes thoughts come in our head. We were supposed to be doing gurmantar repetition so who gave us the thoughts that interrupted our naam? They were never in our control to begin with. Science when looked at the brain it found neuron impulses before a thought was propagated and without those neuron impulses there was no thought. Science does not know who or what is causing the impulses but I believe it to be God as he is pulling the strings behind the show. So coming to answer sam Harris's question of the simulated individual choosing to leave class early in one simulation and of this happening in other exact simulations is that choice is not under the individuals control but in the individual creating the simulation. So the choice would be for the person playing God in the simulation.

Agreed. Christmas isn't anywhere near a dharmik festival for Christianity, it holds no real link to what Christianity really is- it's just a corporate event with an aim to get people to spend money. With that said I don't think an ideal Sikh lives in joy or sorrow - but instead in Chardikala. I can't say much because I'm flawed. Can't really judge a person and how they feel based solely on if they have a Christmas tree up or not. The family event can be changed into Sikhmas and kids can be taught Gurmat. I see nothing wrong with having the same basic concept and implementing SIkh sakhis while still "going with the flow". I wouldn't want my kid to feel confused and left out while everyone, including non-SIkh Punjabis celebrating a holiday while they aren't. Always a positive way to paint something with a Sikh brush and teach kids about Sikhi. Just to put into perspective we haven't put up any tree or anything for literally maybe 8 years lol.

That's exactly what I meant to say. Ego has nothing to do with this. Sikhs in the west see nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas but how is this any different from Sikhs in India celebrading Hindu holydays? if it's hindu holydays we are up in arms but somehow we are okay with Christian holydays like Christmas and Easter. What next? are we going to start celebrating Islamic holidays like Eid or Mawlid(birthday of Prophet Mohammad)? Brothers and Sisters, next time you celebrate Chrismas, remember our Sahibzadas who became Shaheed during the same time you are joyfully celebrating Christmas. How can any Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh Jee be joyful or happy at that time of the year is beyond my understanding.

I did not see any ego coming from Jonny101 post. He articulately revealed the hypocrisy of Sikhs that have no issue putting up a Christmas tree, but will stone to death Sikhs that have Devi and Devta idols in their homes.

Marry Christmas to all the Christian-Sikh hybrids here who are celebrating Christmas this year. May your lord and savior Jesus Christ bless you with a happy new year!

in reply to Hazoor's post that you quoted I wrote the following:

http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/11/pauri/15 ਜੋਧੁ ਰਸੋਈਆ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਿ ਦੁਤਰ ਤਾਰੀ। Jodh, the cook, served the Guru and swam across the world ocean. ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੈਜ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥੧੫॥ The perfect Guru maintained their honour.

He isn't a Sikh now but he fought as a Sikh. Either way I think it's okay for Sikhs to give awards even if person is non Sikh. He is getting it based off merit so labels in this case are irrelevant, even if he is patit.

I don't think Sikhs will ever get justice in India. Indian media is calling Bhai Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa a radical Sikh. Sikhs need their own media!!!

You must have a very boring life for sitting around and waiting for critics to assess the picture. Try to get out more and sit in Sikh sangat to learn some virtues. Obviously GAP will come out against the graffiti. They don't want their property becoming a racist platform and to be damaged. Read more intellectual books.

Judge Stephen Tumin, in 1990's commissioned an inquiry, following the death of Stephen Lawrence; murdered by racists, stated that Britain is " institutionally racist". Since the report, many improvements have been made to eradicate racism from Britains institutions.Indians/Sardars, now hold high ranking posts in Government, the Armed Forces, the media, and in successful businesses. Our community has reached new heights, despite the overwhelming disadvantages. There exists, in Britain, a small minority of white supremacists, who look down on non-whites, but the attitudes of the majority of goreh have changed, since they realised the achievements of Indians/ Sardars. Many Sardars/Indians have gone on to marrying into high class goreh families. The British Government has praised the India community, particularly the Sikhs, for their contributions to the economy and society, through the principles of seva, and community spirit. There are elements, in Britain, who like to spread phobia about non- whites; particularly associating Dastar/ beard with Islamic militancy. Generally speaking, Indians/Sardars in Britain, have integrated well, and their efforts have been acknowledged. Waris has taken the step to highlight the Sardar saroop, on an international platform. Personally, I feel very proud of Waris... Waheguru... Waheguru....

Speak to a professional. You need to overcome this issue before it takes over your life.

Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques, According To News Reports A number of news outlets have reported that Angola has "banned" Islam and started to dismantle mosques in a bold effort to stem the spread of Muslim extremism. Weekly French-language Moroccan newspaper La Nouvelle Tribune published an article on Friday sourcing "several" Angolan officials, including the Southwest African nation's minister of culture, Rosa Cruz, who reportedly offered the following remarks, which have been translated from French: "The process of legalization of Islam has not been approved by the Ministry of Justice and Human Rights. Their mosques would be closed until further notice." The media reports have not described why Islam would need to be legalized, considering its presence in the country for many years. OnIslam.net reports that the African economic news agency Agence Ecofin wrote that Cruz made the statement at an appearance last week before the 6th Commission of the National Assembly. The website goes on to note that, "According to several Angolan newspapers, Angola has become the first country in the world to ban Islam and Muslims, taking first measures by destroying mosques in the country." Even Angola President José Eduardo dos Santos has weighed in on the controversy, as he was quoted in Nigeria's Osun Defender newspaper on Sunday as saying, "This is the final end of Islamic influence in our country," according to the OnIslam.net report. The reported comments by Cruz and Santos echo the stance of the governor of the country's Luanda province, Bento Francisco Bento, who reportedly maintains that "radical Muslims were not welcome in Angola and that the government was not ready to legalize the presence of mosques in the country," according to a La Nouvelle Tribune summary of Bento's take on the issue. In a physical extension of the officials' sentiments about Islam's place in Angola, La Nouvelle Tribune said that a minaret of an Angolan mosque was dismantled last October, and that the city of Zango "has gone further by destroying the only mosque in the city." The emerging reports about Angola "banning" Islam and dismantling mosques point to the anti-Islam sentiments held by many in the nation's citizens, but they could not immediately be independently verified by International Business Times. Angola is a majority-Christian nation of about 16 million people, of whom an estimated 55 percent are Catholic, 25 percent belong to African Christian denominations, 10 percent follow major Protestant traditions, and 5 percent belong to Brazilian Evangelical churches. Only 80,000 to 90,000 Angolans are Muslim, according to the U.S. State Department. http://www.ibtimes.com/angola-bans-islam-dismantles-mosques-according-news-reports-1483660

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji Ke Fateh I absolutely love this post. True to the Guru's input to the veechara, and bhull chukk maaf but doesn't Maharaaj even say if not thinking capacity but plants have some life too. Apologies for incorrect opinion if im wrong. Gurfateh

Check out this mixtape being featured on a prominent hip-hop website!!! http://www.datpiff.com/Rex-Young-Mystic-Music-mixtape.531638.html Please post comments and feedback

I'm going to go get artificial tree that has been in the garage for years and set it up just because this thread inspired me to. Dhan dhan sant baba Jesus Nazareth wale

Its gr8...keep sharing inspiring literatures like this. thnks