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Agree, but a truly poor person is one who lacks the will/icha to jap naam.

sorry not belittling someone. I have just mentioned that I have been in that situation many times maybe 4 or 5 or more. That is why I symphatise with them. Their parents should have guided them by taking them to the Guradwara. That is worked best for me of all the times I was in trouble myself.

Hit the nail on the head. Try and put forward perfectly logical arguments and reasons why they should not travel abroad leaving behind kith and kin to fend for themselves and that their fellow brothers are living in squalid conditions under bridges still you have more chance of convincing them than having your feet washed by the Pope. They glare right through you, almost as if looking at a Ghostly spirit, then nod like they've been hypnotised at which point the subject changes to something completely different. Ranjeet01, the washrooms at some Gurdwarey fare no better and the ones at Petrol Stations should be given a wide berth unless one feels the need to catch a nasty bug/bites as a parting gift. Panga is foreigners rarely suffer from Constipation in Punjab, I always take a healthy supply of Imodium in case the need arises, fortunately frequent visits since '99 have fended off the runs.

Thanks for the link Simran

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In terms of our history, Australia trumps even Canada and California as the first 'western' land our pioneers settled in on a large scale. Unfortunately, as Punjabis have little understanding and regard for preserving history, they have knocked down most of the oldest houses in the villages of doaba and replaced them with pointlessly large modern mega houses. It is the older houses in the villages of doaba that reveal history. Just like how, in 100 years time, our off-spring will notice the number of houses in the villages with mention of 'Canada' engraved. From that, they will learn that, in the past, it was money from Canada that was providing these giant houses. In this regard the one thing about the old houses still standing in those villages that jumps out at you first is the way that the vast majority of them have the words 'Telia' engraved on the front wall, along with a date in the late 1800s. 'Telia', of course, is the Punjabi colloquial word for Australia, and it demonstrates just how many of the Sikhs were settled there in the 1800's. As for the wider issue being discussed here I will tell you exactly what I say to relatives there that think they are well off and 'rich' because they have giant houses, Range Rovers and the finer things in life. I tell them they are poor. Very poor. No matter how much money you have in the bank you are extremely poor if : Outside of the front gates of your house...i.e the society you are part of.... there are mothers dying simply because they cannot afford a £2 medicine Your nation's children die of malnutrition. Your nation's citizens die of diseases eradicated in the rest of the world a century ago. Your nation's citizens die through lack of clean water and basic sanitation No matter how much money you have in the bank and how nice your house is you are very very poor if you can't even ensure : Everyone in your nation has access to free 1st class emergency healthcare Everyone in your country has free 1st class education within 1st class surroundings Everyone in your country is given social security, a poverty safety net, a roof over their heads. No matter how rich you think you and how nice the car you drive is, you are destitute level poor if: Those brand spanking new roads, bridges and shiny buildings are built partly by child labour. Children working hard on building sites rather than being in school.No matter how democratic and civilised you imagne your society is, you are a very poor man living in a very poor backward country if: Your country still has 17th century 'sedition' Laws on it's statute books.Everyone in India......everyone.....is very very poor. Very poor because they don't understand what true societal richness is.

In regards to jot/diva: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/59524-jot-or-diva/?hl=diva In regards to particular Gurdwaras for fulfilling a wish or for help with dukh, it's because some people would have been blessed from that particular Gurdwara/isthaan. But that does not mean that everybody will receive the same. It would have been due somebody's karm and Waheguru's grace that they were graced, and that can happen anywhere. The thing is when somebody is very Dukhi they will go wherever it takes to get some relief, and only until one is in that position then they can judge on them. Obviously, we should not ask for things that we don't need, and we should not turn our backs on doctors and medical help. But there is no harm in visiting Gurdwaras for blessings or to do darshan, as long as we don't demand God for it. But a persons karm may also change with Gurbani.

It will be hard to approach your real parents. Vaheguru. Hope you find your path way back man

What a sad story. What I wonder is why people don't just go talk to someone instead of posting their worst moments on here. It is totally different if you are asking for some inspiration. Trying to put your man mat infront of all - is just so sad. I am not trying to say that we are perfect. We all have moments when we are broken away from God because of our lack of faith. Broken away from him means that we are going to follow our own brain instead of following what the Guru says. After we have gone through this episode of visarna from God we suffer greatly until he unites us with him again. This is why you keep telling people to Naam jap and they just can't. I have gone through this stage many times. One of these trying times it just took a visit to the Guradwara and my brother guided me into performing a sukhmani sahib dha path in the Guradwara. This sort of greatly helped me get in touch back again. What ever happens we must force ourselves to the Guradwara and sit down and get some sangat and do some simran for a time. It greatly helps instead of just surrendering to our man mat. We have free will at the end of the day.

From my personal experience I want to share some thoughts. I think the root of the problem is that we can't just do anything without knowing the cause behind it.I dont know about the rest of the world but the scene in India is that parents force their children to do path and children dont find this act good enough because they dont know the whole concept of religion.So there should be religious education first.parents should introduce religion by telling the basic things about sikhi.what is Sikhi.Why we are supposed to recite Nitnem.unfortunately this is not done in most of the families. Even today when I am told to do some acts linked to religion I dont like doing those things (eg pouring ghee in jots at some Gurudwaras).the reason for me is I dont know the significance of this act and my brain refuses to do acts blindly.So in your case I would advice you to talk to your parents about it and try to have knowledge of your religion by searching on net. You can also checkout Basic of Sikhi videos on youtube.I am sure you will be benefitted.

I think they probably don't have a choice, as look around the whole world, how easy is it to get a job? Bangladesh/China is probably worse to find a job, so they probably go for whatever work they can get.

I agree, the OP needs to be comfortable too when doing paat, and not forced to go along with it, as this will have a negative him on him. To the OP, when you pray with them, don't think about your parents, but instead try to focus on what is being recited. If you don't understand it then maybe ask your parents the meanings. Even listening to paat is beneficial for you, but you need to be content inside and not stressed, so think to yourself why you are there. I would also suggest you mentioning this to your parents, about how you feel and tell them what is affecting you and why. They may help you and guide you on understanding Gurbani. The thing is parents think they are doing the right thing most of the time, but the method may not be the right one. So it's important also to make them aware if you are not happy, so they can use another method. Rather than not being happy and causing arguments later on from the stress, let them know. You also need to experience Gurbani yourself, as in a post Harsharan Paji has put on.

If he isnt ready or simply doesnt want too paht they shouldnt force him, forcing someone to do something just makes them rebel. Even great Sikhs never forced people to do paht with them. But can you clarify what you mean by wacko religious?

Many people among different dharmas think, that I have commited something bad, so now I have to do this or that, so that my balance remains still in my favour. They think that karmas is like having a bank account, where bad karmas means withdrawl money from it, and good karmas means, to deposit money in that account. But thanks to our Guru Sahibans, we know this our manmat is wrong always. As said above, any type of karam seeding, has a unavoidable harvest of those seeds. Good karmas in large amount, can at most take us to Swarg or Baikunth, more bad karmas, means a longer stay in those planes/bodies where we repay them in sufferings. This creation is alike spider web, which is designed in such a way, by means of karmas, that we can never ever be freed, thus remain prisoners here, be it the lower or higher gods planes, or in patal, demons. Cause, even these gods, after the merits of their good karmas end, they also must be born here in the physical plane, not knowing where their karam will take them, means, not knowing in which joonee... They also, wish to be born as humans once again, to do the bhakti of wahiguru, with the Gurparsad, as mentioned by brother Jacfsing2 in his post above, and get freed for once and ever. Their is no such water or karam which can wash our sins. If by bathing in the so called holy waters was that easy in getting mukti, fishes, water creatures, would not be there. Once to make this understand to the ordinary people who were asking this question to a gyani, who by chance were going to a pilgrimage in the Ganges, he told them, take this small packet of chillies with you, and while you take bath in the Ganga river, please inmerse them in the river also, and then bring them to me back. On their return, they passed by that gyani´s house to hand him back his chillies. While handing them to the gyanis, he told them to cut and taste them. When they did so, they just spit them, as they were very hot. Then he told them, if these material chilles, even after getting inmersed in the holy waters,could not change the taste of their material aspect or quality, so how could our sins be washed by doing so? Our Gurbani is very very clear here, we all know, all our vikaars, our filth of karmas, gathered since we left our home Sach Khand, their cumulative effects are on our mind. And it is this mind, which has to be washed. And as we know, no water, no fire, no such air, can reach the mind to purify it, if that was ever possible, due to it being subtle. On the contrary, our Guru Jee, tells us in a very simple and effective way to do this desired purification, to get rid from all our sins, our karmas, our vikaars... Thus He says: Prabh ka Simram man kee mael jaae. Means, His Simran, is the Amrit, which truly washes this dirt. It is the written guarantee given to us by Guru Jee, but, we moorakhs fail to understand this, thus we engae in so many other activities and practices, which bound us still stronger in this creation it is a in a sense, a penalty for not obeying Guru Jee implicitly, that also, when Guru Jee´s have left Gurbani only for us, to face all sitautions with courage and faith. As simple as that, and we fail in doing so. As repeated oftenly, there is nothing like as simple and really effective like Gurbani / Gurmat, if only, we paid focused attention on each and every Sat Bachan of the Bani, and not only that, but put into action, put into practice. The choice is ours, nothing less than Sach Khand on one hand with Wahiguru´s grace, or, on the other hand, keep remaining prisoners in the mayavee creation with all the painful consequences... Sat Sree Akal.

Austrialia is going to be the next major Sikh population center rivaling Canada/US/UK. The Sikhs there are still mostly young and unmarried. As soon as they start marrying and having kids their population will double. Add to that, they will probably also sponsor their parents. They are set for serious growth. Only downside is that since the Sikhs in australia are reletively new they are dealing with a lot of racist Goray.

ILETS has been around for 10-15 years and it is the course of choice for the educated type as its pretty tough to pass, for Indians wanting to emigrate. Australia is a high wage country well relative to most other countries but the downside can be cost of living like renting, clothes, electrical goods, eating out etc. Living in Sydney/Melbourne or Brisbane, they will have to earn some serious AUDs to live modestly.

The phenomena amongst the Millenial Punjabi(generation born late 80's and 90s) demographic is to do their ILETS (English equivalency test) in order to apply for student visas. This is the main reason why Australia has become very popular in recent years. The English level requirements are lower than the UK and apparently they get PR after 2 years. And what is that they do in Australia? They drive cabs. I had one relative who had a good job as a police officer asking these probing questions. I suggested to him that he had a profession, maybe he should see if his profession has a demand in these countries and maybe he should look for a skills based visa, where he would get PR before he steps foot into his country of choice. He then denied he was looking to move abroad. When I spoke to another relative about him, he told me that it is in fact the police officer wanted to move abroad.

They think you're trying to mess them about, i.e. stop them for gaining the opportunities that our elders had when they emigrated to the West. I don't doubt there's a few devious people over here who'd like to see their relatives wallow in a dead-end existence in Punjab, but most people express their misgivings out of concern. But it has no affect.

http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/ http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=punjabi

The worst part is when you see someone who just left Punjab 2 or 3 years ago finding it difficult to speak Punjabi when they go back to Punjab and show off their new Angreji accented Punjabi. The women do this the most.

I have a theory. It's not based on any scientific study, but just a few observations of my own. Britain's been industrialised - on the whole - since the 19th century. That process actually began in the late 1700's. So, Britain has transformed from a largely agricultural (dependent on specialist regional economies) pre-industrial society to an industrial society that was a leader in manufacturing processes and general capitalistic practices. Of course, the rise of information technology in the past 30 years is also something that's been a constant in modern societies. As I was saying, that process of industrialisation / mechanisation has occurred over decades and centuries. It's been gradual, it's been steady, and most of all, it's been a natural state of progression from one state of existence to another. It hasn't occurred in the blink of an eye, relatively speaking. As such, it's taken society - human beings - time to adjust and re-adjust and become accustomed to new ways of living and all the fringe benefits of living in a world that operates on the basis of mechanisation and technology. What I'm trying to say is that our conscious - as a collective and as individuals - has had time to soak up all the great changes and advancements made over the decades and centuries. It hasn't been like ripping a plaster off a cut, or pushing someone off a pier and expecting them to swim, and then expecting them to continue as if it's no huge change in circumstances. Punjabi society in India has not had those decades and centuries to compose themselves; to re-calibirate their mental faculties; to become accustomed to those great leaps forward in technology and, importantly, modern societal norms. Yet, they've been exposed to our way of life - on many fronts, be they visiting NRI's, the media, etc - and they've found themselves craving that same existence. The problem is that they haven't been able to progress towards that stage of existence in an organic and steady way. In essence, most (not all) Punjabi society existed, as recently as 25 or so years ago - in a manner that their medieval ancestors did in the middle ages. Aside from the odd radio or TV set or motorcar, vast swathes of people back home might as well have been existing in 1705 instead of 1995. How do you expect the human brain - particularly with a third-world mentality existing in a similar environment - to respond when the world suddenly reveals itself to be within reach? It would drive anyone absolutely insane. And that's what's happened. They have been tempted by the fruits of Western existence whilst still dwelling in the East, yet they haven't earned it and their brains are still hardwired to behave and process life in the old agrarian, pre-industrial way, yet they're being bombarded with images and sounds of shiny and bright baubles from a decadent West, and basically it's done a number on them psychologically because they haven't progressed through the requisite stages of existence to arrive at a stage of being where what we take for granted is, for them, something that is almost alien. And I don't mean "earned" in terms of money or status or class or anything like that. The use of "earn" in this situation is in respect to advancements on a collective societal level, not in a haughty financial sense. When simple people are given access to capabilities that are beyond their mental and psychological means, there will invariably be fallout. That's what we're seeing now with the obsession with materialism and consumer culture. They don't care how or where the money comes to wallow in the trinkets of Western life, they just want it more than anything else. That's why you get NRI's complaining about the lack of warmth and understanding from their families when they observe the changes back home. I'm not blaming Punjabi society at all. If anything, they're the true victims of these violent changes that just arent conducive to the kind of third-world societies and mentalities that are still ubiquitous over there. Anyway, just my theories, nothing concrete.

They're one of most disgusting people ever to arrive in the UK , probably worse than the pakistanis and that takes some beating.

Hope they do, the number of Amritdharis selling fags and alcohol for a living and justifying it by claiming they are earning an honest living is pathetic!