Just A Vegetable

[Jedi_Singh]

Wahegurooo ji ka khalsa wahegurooo ji ki fateh

Sadhsangat ji, lets say if you were born with an disability, or born disabled (mental retardation) or become a vegetable meaning you just in a wheel chair and drool and slobber can't talk or anything and are in pain...should you die if you wanted to...for example if i became sick very ill and became a vegetable i'd want to die, i'd want the doctor to kill me now is this interferring with God's will? and I know it's not up to a doctor if my life should be ended but i want to request it if i became that ill i would like to die, and not suffer and be in pain, and I think there's more to life then just being a vegetable.

[Singhstah]

in my opinipn the person shud not be allowed to die, this is interferring with gods will and the suffering wud stop wen u die but it wud then be moved onto the persons next life, watever life u have to live out your bad and good karams.

[rKr]

What you are in this life is a phal and karam of what you were in your last life - this being the case, if you past karam mean that this life must be spent disabled, then you must live within the hukam - His Will.

Should you interfere with this in anyway, then it will mean that you will suffer the same in your next birth - we all have to live out our karams, good or bad... there is no way around it - unless we take up naam. Meditate on his name, this will save us from the circle of births.

Just my ramblings

Forgive me for my many mistakes.

[gurukirpa]

how can we say that the person is suffering? suffering in our opinion may not be that person's suffer....may be he or she is searching for the real bliss...we think it is suffering coz we feel pitty on that person...when we feel pity we think we are humble but we are not. it has a degree of ego involve. it is not a true humbleness. let the system be by it's on. if we meet this kind of person who are disable, we should feel that this is a moment to shower your love on them....if u wanna be humble be truly humble ...true love. but we think offering death to that person, we are helping but deep down, actually we are taking the burden out of our head.

[Jaspaul Singh]

Whenever i hear about suffering in this world i always remember the first salok of rehiras sahib...

dhukh dhaaroo sukh rog bhaeiaa jaa sukh thaam n hoee

Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the disease, because where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God.

It is easy for us to say .. ohh just except it as God's will, but actually living like that i can totally imagine. My own bhua, she had a stroke out of no where and now her whole half side is dead but slowly now guru kirpa naal she is progressing. Its really hard for my grandma (her mother) to see her own child like this where she is doing fine and her daughters in that shape.

Bro, all i can say is take it as hukam.

I totally believe the saying that "Jithe naam nai hunda, uthai sukh nai hunda."

Just do your naam bani, simran, paath, and all would be well. Just remember, it is wrong to change the will of God, and if Guru ji made him/her like this, take it as a blessing...

If i ever was in this shape i would try .. guru kripa naal to do as much bani as i can.. or if i physically cant.. just remember God in our minds...

Again its easy to say than done. Bless are those who in this position still remember God constently...

[Pheena]

The action will be difficult to take without the understanding of Hukam. One will always second guess his decision and it is not something that one can take back.

To Truely feel 100% right about the decision of either Mercy killing or assisted suicide one has to feel it right in his heart and mind without a doubt. It is obvious that Suffering is worse than Death. It is like hanging from your neck not dying, but struggling. If there is no hope of that person recovering from a vegetable state then why hold him back, release the soul from the cage so a new one can be attained by him/her. Set him free from the bonds of this birth. But then one has to ask, is this what God wants. Am I going against his Hukam.

Perhaps he/she is meant to suffer thru his karma but then what good are our hands our free choice to act if we cannot provide comfort for other. Do we sit back and let the other suffer because it is their karma. Do we provide such comfort even if it means releasing them from their pain with Mercy killing? Does Compassion take you this far that you rid the other from his/her pain by death?

[kaur_khalistani_lioness]

are u askin this question cuz of>> Terri Schiavo's case

i mean is that why u asked this question?

cuz i my self feel so bad about the whole thing.

[Jedi_Singh]

Terri Schiavo'yes i'm asking this question because of the case and also i have an aunt who basically is at a vegetable state.

[Pheena]

Here are the results from a Nobel Prize nominee who examined her. He's an expert in the field, and this is what he testified to in one of the trials. The full transcript can be found here:

http://www.apfn.org/Schiavo/Hammesfahrexam.htm

Yes, it's long. Read it.

.Alertness: The patient was alert throughout essentially the entire exam.

Responsiveness: The patient would immediately respond to sound, tone of voice

and to touch and pain. With respect to responding to those around her, she had

limited responsiveness to me personally until approximately 45 minutes into the

exam. She started to look at me, against her traditional right gaze preference, about

the same time that we started getting significant relaxation in her contracted left arm

(the arm that had been contracted for several years.) She appeared to identify the

sound of my voice, with the relaxation of the arm. From that point, she would

generally look toward the sound of my voice when heard, attempt to find me

visually, then track the sound of my voice in its movements, or track me if I was

within approximately one foot of her eyes. Prior to that time, she did not track me,

or try to locate me visually. When playing music, she had a clear preference to the

specific sound track played, and would listen to piano music, but change levels of

listening depending on the track played. Her attention to the music would not

wander during the track she preferred. She would pick out her mother's voice or

her father's voice separate from the music or other voices or sounds in the room,

and re-fix her gaze to those people. She would tend not to blink when watching

those people. She ignored her husband's loud foot-tapping that went on for

approximately five minutes at one point. She also ignored his voice and did not try

to seek him out visually when he would at times interject comments during the

exam or immediately afterwards.

During various portions of the exam, she would be moved or have her

position readjusted. She continued to handle her saliva during this time, never

being observed to choke on her saliva.

Following Commands: At various times during the exam, I asked her to

close her eyes, or open her eyes widely, look towards her mother, or look towards

me. At times, she appeared to properly follow these commands. Interestingly,

some of the commands, such as close your eyes, open your eyes, etc. she tended to

do several minutes after I gave her the command to do so. She had a delay in her

processing of the action. However, when praised for the action, she would then

continue to do the action repetitively for up to approximately 5 minutes. As we had

moved on to other areas of the exam, at times she was continuing to do the previous

command, then at inappropriate times since the focus of the exam had changed.

During different portions of the exam, I would ask her to squeeze my hand on

command, or, in the lower extremities, to pick up her right lower leg to command.

The upper extremities are contracted and weak. She appeared to squeeze my hand,

and then relax her grip, in the upper right extremity, possibly in the upper left

extremity. I am unsure if she was doing it to verbal command, or in response to

body language; however, it was voluntary activity and not reflex. In the lower

extremities, she showed these same abilities, marked on the right and to a lesser

degree on the left (voluntary control over the ankles could not be determined due to

the severity of the contractures there). However, in the right lower extremity, I

again gave verbal commands, but also noted that she would oppose activity

voluntarily. Thus, moving a hand against a thigh would elicit an equal and opposite

reaction from her. She would gauge the degree of pressure, and counteract it

equally. This is not a reflexive movement. With respect to her lower leg, we were

able to clearly show that on videotape. I had her push her lower leg against my

hand; my hand was on the top of her leg. Removing my hand suddenly, allowed

her leg to suddenly continue voluntarily rising up and be seen on videotape. We

had her do this repetitively on videotape.

Her right lower leg is quite strong. Other areas are either not as strong, or

have such high spasticity brought on by neglect that voluntary activities are able to

be felt, but difficult to show large degree of motion that are represented on

videotape so well. The voluntary control is there, but does not show up well on

videotape, as the range that the motion goes through is less.

Cranial Nerve Exam: Cranial nerve function is present and appears normal

in all groups tested. The fundoscopic exam and ophthalmic nerve function could

not be tested directly. She tracks well and voluntarily. She does not exhibit

"Doll's Eye" motion, an abnormality seen in coma patients whose eyes move back

and forth like a doll's when their head is moved.

Coma patients cannot direct their gaze to specific things and maintain their

gaze on those things regardless of head motion or motion of the object.

She can do these things. She appears to see things best at approximately the

8-12 inch area. She was best able to track large reflective objects like aluminum

balloons or sparkling lights (for which a focal length limitation is not an issue.)

This is a patient who has very poor language abilities. Her interactions with the

world, as well as her ability to convey thought will depend in large part on her

visual abilities and limitations. Thus a complete opthamological exam and evoked

potential exam needs to be performed. This needs to be performed in comfortable

situation and the patient needs to be comfortable with the examiner and the

examinations. I would estimate that at least one day should be allotted for the exam

and should be carried out her in room.

Sensory Exam: The patient was tested to light touch, pressure, and sharp

touch and pain in all four extremities and on her face. The pain portion in the

extremities was conducted by pinching the nail beds of her hands and feet. She

clearly feels pain as the videotapes show.

On the face, noxious stimulation including cotton swab up the nose and gag

sensation and papillary touch with cotton evidenced a pain response. These were

more than just reflexes, as she appeared to be annoyed by these painful responses

long after they had stopped, and would not smile at me again for the rest of the day.

She certainly feels pressure, as was discussed earlier, and opposes pressure with

voluntary motor activity. When using a sharp piece of wood, which she found

uncomfortable, and going over her entire body (except diapered areas and breast

areas), we found that sensation is present everywhere. Sensation on the right side

as evidenced by moaning or tightening up muscles or withdrawal and was more

prevalent than on the left.

........

Impression:

The patient is not in coma.

She is alert and responsive to her environment. She responds to specific

people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal

praise. She responds negatively to poor tone of voice. She responds to music.

She differentiates sounds from voices.

She differentiates specific people's voices from others.

She differentiates music from stray sound.

She attempts to verbalize.

She has voluntary control over multiple extremities

She can swallow.

She is partially blind

She is probably aphasic and has a degree of receptive aphasia.

She can feel pain.

On this last point, it is interesting to observe that the records from Hospice

show frequent medication administered for pain by staff....

[curious_man]

but if a person is in a vegetable state......how can he/she remember or chant God's name????

Sukh hovay ...din raatee!!!