Kutchee Bani?!

[Gupt daasan daas]

sant jarnail singh je sang dharna???

does anyone have any audio on this?

btw i agree wit jagjeet singh je

dharnaa is good, but we shuds try to bak it up with gurbanee

it is gurbanee tha has thr amrit essence in it

dharnaa is a good form of parchaar though

bhula chuka maf

[Nirvair S Khalsa]

sant jarnail singh je sang dharna???

does anyone have any audio on this?

138211[/snapback]

Paaji, below is a link to a very small clip of Sant Jee singing, "Dharam Sir Dittiya Baaj Nehi Rehnaa", that i have uploaded, but it is only one line as it is taken from the start of a song someone else has sung. I will try to get hold of Sant Jee's other Dharna's in full, or if anyone else already has them, would be good if uploaded...

CLICK HERE - Dharam Sir Dittiya Baaj Nehi Rehnaa - Sant Jee Clip

...Than Than Pooran Bramhgianee Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Khalsa Bhindranwale...

Vaheguroo Jee Kaa Khalsa, Vaheguroo Jee Kee Phateh!!!

[N30S1NGH]

Kharkho4life and others,

Certain jatha's and people belive gurbani reveal itself fully to anyone who has no knowledge, lacks bibek buddhi to do vichar, gyan to grasp Guru's wisdom. For them gurbani is straight up can be translated in one lines. That's a wrong mindset.

Just speaking from my expereince, i just finished translating japji sahib audio katha in english orginally taken from sant gyani baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale steek. Bygrace of guru and sant mandali i have managed to write an translations with my limited buddi and skills..you can read starting bit of translation on : http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15451

I am extremely suprised to know how deep gurbani is to grasp.. each and every ang, how many layers over layers deep antriv(arths) there is in Gurbani.

Now lets look at tools which are used in parchar: books, katha's traditionally to simplify Gurbani by sants, gyanis, great scholars(vidvans). These tools are there to help/inspire you in the path towards ikongkar but these tools itself is not a goal.

Now dharna's started- It was first started by Raj Jogi 108 Sant baba Attar Singh Ji Mustaneywaley because he heard celestial voice(akash bani) telling him- Attar sian, population of sikhs is decreasing day by day, go simplify the message of sri guru nanak dev nirankar's for them.

So he started dharna in his katha, he and sant baba isher singh ji rara sahib followed same format, first sang dharna and right after dharna recite gurbani tuk corresponding to dharna so dharna is within "Gurmat" and also reason being so people does not get "confused" and mistakenly consider dharnas as gurbani in Guru's Maharaj Darbar.

No one is arguing about dharna's have same type of rass as gurbani. No one is arguing about that. When it's sung , intention of many mahapursh(baba attar singh ji, baba isher singh ji, nanaksar waley mahapursh, harkhowaley mahapursh etc) who is singing dharna's is rather reinforces each individual to a) take amrit b) do patt, naam simran, do seva. If someone take it's wrong. how is that fault of a mahapursh or how did mahapursh commited anti-gurmat act ?.

Katha's, Dharna's with gurmat vichar, dhadhi vars, steeks are all tools to simplify message of sri guru nanak dev ji gurbani updesh so that normal person can also take laha's of gurbani in simplified form (explanation provided by giving out parallel sakhis, historical, spiritual context of gurbani etc).

Kharkho4life, i have no problem you accusing sikh mahapursh above mentioned engaging anti-gurmat activities etc etc as you think dharna's are anti-gurmat we all know you have more respect towards osho then our sikh mahapursh. This kinda dvaish(partiality) opens doors to narrow mindness. Your reply is all about what you understand gurbani as which is relative, you have not even provided one historical references of this pauri which talks about kachi bani. That's is that.

Now speaking of Gurmat(little off topic but allow me), we all like to scream our lungs- gurmat this, gurmat that, anti gurmat this and anti gurmat that.. But none of us are able to comprehend's guru's wisdom and dicepher what is gurmat sidhant according to gurbani- Sri guru granth sahib ji..people have may tried via rehitnamas etc but failed since you cannot grasp guru's di mat (parkash) just by rehitnamas, that just outer layer.

I have created this thread not while ago, unfortunately didn't get many responses from those who like to scream all day - anti gurmat this, anti gurmat that

- http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15467

Please kharkhoji enlighten us each and every details of what exactly you think is gurmat.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Dear Namstang,

You raise some good points in ur post and i will try to adress each of them.

With regards to the mindset u state that not all need bibek budhi i ask u to name me a single individual who has magically attained the gyaan of gurbani without some sort of vichaar (be it with others thru converstaion, thru reading books, steekay, or thru self reflection of oneself on own). Every individual who has attained this gyaan attained it thru some sort of vichaar. We do not have to look any further but the examples of our own gurus. Did bhai lehna jus one day wake up n say eureka!! i understand gurbani!! ?? No. He attianed that gyaan thru many years of sewa and active discourse with Guru Nanak. Same with Bhai Jetha ji, was he born with that gyaan? DId he acquire it on his own? No. He acquired it by becoming a servant at the door of Guru Amar Das Ji. DO u think that the mahapursh of today are more capable or blessed then the gurus themselves that they are able to achive this gyaan on their own without any effort?? A sikh believes in the necessity of this need for active vichaar and understaning by the person themselves that we pray to Waheguru every day asking him for this gift:

"Sikha noo sikhi dhaan, kes dhaan, BIBEK DHAAN"....if u feel that it is not important or not necesarry then perhaps you should rewrite this ardaas and give a new improved version of it for the sikh panth to recite.

And in case you wish to toe the line that oh this ardaas was created by jus a select few who didnt understand gurmat i shud like to remind u that this prayer for this bibek budhi is not man made, but comes fromt he guru himself:

hwir pirE suAwmI kY duAwrY dIjY buiD ibbykw ] rhwau ]

I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect

I am glad to see that u have taken an active effort on ur own to study and understand gurbani. I respect that. And i agree with u that gurbani is avery deep language. That each word contains immeasurable meaning and value to it.

WIth regards to dharnaas. I think u have missed by point. I never accused everyperson who sings them of being anti-sikh or anti-guru. I myself stated that im sure many of these people have honest sincere intentions behind them. However, jus because ones intentions are gud doesnt make the means they use to carry them out good as well. For instance, taken to a extreme say one wants to rid society of crime n violence, does it mean they can just go out n shoot every criminal at will? The intentions of the person are obviously good, to help society, but the means used to caryy out them, shooting carelssly, are not.

Now using dharnaas, from its very basis is flawed and dangerous. U urself state in ur post that:

Now dharna's started- It was first started by Raj Jogi 108 Sant baba Attar Singh Ji Mustaneywaley because he heard celestial voice(akash bani) telling him- Attar sian, population of sikhs is decreasing day by day, go simplify the message of sri guru nanak dev nirankar's for them.

Now this statement has some very seroius assumptions in it which are detrimental to the true essence of sikhi.

1) No guru was ever concerned with a number count of sikhs. Their goal was never to get as many ppl sikhs as possible, or to get the whole world amritdhari and follow their way. If they were so concerned bout gettin more sikhs then they wouldnt have made the sikhi lifestyle so unique and difficult. But they did. Because their goal wasnt to simply get a high number count of sikhs by name, rather they were focused on transforming society as a whole. And they made the path of sikhi very different and challenging cuz they wanted only the most able and committed of people to join this path. That is why even then, durin the times of Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind the sikhs were always a minority yet no GUru ever worried or exclaimed that we need to go out n make more sikhs.

Even during the time of Amhed Shah and during the galugharas, when thousands of sikhs were wiped out in a few months, when the population of sikhs was nearly destroyed why did no one then feel a sudden danger that oh we should get more ppl initiated into Sikhi? SIkhs were hunted openly at will yet every sikh kept full faith in the gurus bani alone and it was enought to keep Sikhi alive and ultimately take over the tyrranical rulers. Yet today, when we are free to walk, talk as we like in these countries with full rights and freedom, y now do we feel a sudden danger that sikhi is being lost? Is it because ppl have become more dumb than before and are incapable of understanding gurbani or is it because no focus has ever been layed on the original gurbani and ppl have forgotten all about it?

2) Was guru nanak so short sighted that he didnt realize his message was too difficult for the average person to understand? Didi guru gobind singh not think of the fact that i am going to bestow gurushup for eternity on guru granth sahib that maybe i shud chek if ppl will even be able to understand it? Over the past 500 years were all sikhs blind and not realize oh gurbani is too dificult and no one will understand it? Y did this desire come up only within last 100 years?

Do not belittle the value of Guru Nanaks bani by saying that it is too difficult and we need to simplify it. Are we wiser and more clever than Nanak himself that we can make his message better? IF there is any problem or something lacking, it is not in gurbani itslef but rather that we as a panth have not given proper focus on gurbani. Instead of trying to udnerstand gurbani ourselves and teach it to others we have chosen a simpler method of composing our own home-made rhymes n gettin ppl focused on those instead of gurbani. How many ppl in the saadhsangat who listen to thes dharnaas, or sit in sangat of ppl who focus primarily on singing these dharnaas can actually read,write and understand even the meaning of jap ji sahib?? Im sure they can all very well memorize and understand a few catchy lines form a dharnaa yet can they understand or even remember the various pauris of Jap Ji?

When it's sung , intention of many mahapursh(baba attar singh ji, baba isher singh ji, nanaksar waley mahapursh, harkhowaley mahapursh etc) who is singing dharna's is rather reinforces each individual to a) take amrit b) do patt, naam simran, do seva. If someone take it's wrong. how is that fault of a mahapursh or how did mahapursh commited anti-gurmat act ?.

Tell me this, if there is the possiblity that ppl might take it wrong why even create a situation where that potential exists. IF someone is so enlightened where they realize that people may misuse their dharnaas wudnt they also realize that to prevent any confusion at all, it is better to use and sing only gurbani? If they want to explain gurbani then there is nothing wrong with that, in fact it shuld be encourged. But what is the reason to have to sing and use music for ones own compositions? Cant they jus keep the singing limited to gurbani and anything else they wanna explain do it thru talkin alone? Why do they have to mix sining of dharnas with gurbani? Are there not enough shabads to sing? Are ther not enought raags in SGGS that we dont need to compose our own music?

As for stating that i am accusing "mahapursh" of anti-gurmat show me once where i have used any one 'mahapursh's" name and directly accused him of being against the guru. It is very wrong for you to jump to such assumptions and accuse me of such things when there is no basis to it. I may not agree with all ur views, but have i accused u of being against the guru or respecting some human more then the guru? This is a very childish and immature attitude on ur part. If you have ever paid any attention or bothered to read my previous posts in their fullness u will realize that my whole focus HAS ALWAYS BEEN ON SHABAD GURU. Any discusion or comment i make, i always try to relate it to gurbani. SO where do get off on sayin i have less respect for sikhi and more for others? I hope u employ more reason and objectivity in ur words in future rather than gettin enraptured in emotional outburts.

[Jai Tegang!]

katha is no different than dharnaa...it's a means to an end...=> connecting us to Gurbani.

Some people seem to have an allergic reaction when something other than Gurbani is being sung. This is such a twisted stance, it just baffles me. Why not have a similar reaction when something other than Gurbani is being plainly spoken (like in the case of katha, and even bachan bilas amongst gursikhs)?

[crayzy]

<<Cant they jus keep the singing limited to gurbani and anything else they wanna explain do it thru talkin alone? Why do they have to mix sining of dharnas with gurbani? Are there not enough shabads to sing? Are ther not enought raags in SGGS that we dont need to compose our own music?>>

The point is whether its wrong or not. You keep asking why, I ask you why not? Namstang has already said that St Attar Singh Ji was given jukam by akash bani.

The aim of dharna kirtan as stated by St Attar Singh Ji is to give the most uneducated people a chance to understand the depth of Gurbani - and they usually back up their dharna with Gurbani anyway.

Basically, if you dont to listen to it dont, but why stop those of us that do want to listen to it. I for one know for a fact that if it wasnt for dharna kirtan i would have much less understanding of Gurbani than I do now.

Dharna makes early understanding Gurbani much more accesible, its like a stepping stone.

[N30S1NGH]

katha is no different than dharnaa...it's a means to an end...=> connecting us to Gurbani.

Some people seem to have an allergic reaction when something other than Gurbani is being sung. This is such a twisted stance, it just baffles me. Why not have a similar reaction when something other than Gurbani is being plainly spoken (like in the case of katha, and even bachan bilas amongst gursikhs)?

138287[/snapback]

to add to that,

why not similiar reaction against those who do head spinning and distort guru mantra in samagams by adding their own sound track..- all as brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,grrrrrrrr,, uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu,..yaayeyeyaayyeyeye, ggrrrrrrrrghrhrhrhrh.

pm me if you want to hear "chardi-kalah" simran recorded in samagam.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

"why not similiar reaction against those who do head spinning and distort guru mantra in samagams by adding their own sound track..- all as brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,grrrrrrrr,, uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu,..yaayeyeyaayyeyeye, ggrrrrrrrrghrhrhrhrh."

Is there a reason to bring up this point when it was beaten to death but a few months ago? That was one person and the issue here is discussing an institution of Sikh Parchar. The two are not directly comparable.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Sat Sri Akal:

"why not similiar reaction against those who do head spinning and distort guru mantra in samagams by adding their own sound track..- all as brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,grrrrrrrr,, uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu,..yaayeyeyaayyeyeye, ggrrrrrrrrghrhrhrhrh."

Is there a reason to bring up this point when it was beaten to death but a few months ago?  That was one person and the issue here is discussing an institution of Sikh Parchar.  The two are not directly comparable.

138303[/snapback]

Exactly.

Namstang, rather than writing a response based on pure emotion again, why dont u instead try directly answering and responding to the points i raised in my last post.

Making a post as ur last is not gonna serve any purpose. The purpose here is not to become defensive and use mockery or sarcasm to relay ur point, but rather to engage in a meaningful two-way dialogue so that we can learn from each other. Everyone on this forum is here to learn and gain a deeper understanding of Sikhi. No one is here to read pointless posts embroiled in emotion and irrational thought.

Hope you will try and use the opportunity this time around to actually respond to my previous points rather then deviate the subject matter. Looking forward to hearing ur views.

[N30S1NGH]

I ll reply to your post in detail tom. Please stay tuned.