Kutchee Bani?!

[singhmota]

Akhand kirtani jatha does not do katha in their samagams.

why? so is katha anti panthic?

Is vichar of gurbani not required?

Does akhand kirtani jatha dont have any katha kars amongst themselves? They can invite some from outside and it will also help in reflecting more panthic nature of Akhand Kirtani Jatha?

If most of other panthic samagams have katha in their programs why not akhand kirtani jatha?

Also AKJ do dhan guru dhan guru piayre in kirtan? Is this gurbani

Or they will do Dhan Guru Nanak. Or Dhan Guru Gobind singh Sahib?

Is that Gurbani? Is that nirol Gurbani Kirtan?

AKJ also do Pivo Pahul Kahndey Dhar? I dont know where in Gurbani you can find that. Please point me to source

Donot consider this an attack. I have asked geniune questions as I have been listening to dhan guru dhan guru piarey since childhood and seeing this nirol gurbani thread questions come up whether these are gurbani or not . Full Stop.

Also no one has given a direct answer to what the topic starter asked

The word Bhai Sahib (Gurdas Jee) uses to describe what that Queen went to listen to is GURBANI! This is before the Guru's started Sikhism, yet he says she went to listen to GURBANI!

A simple and straight answer is required.

Was it Gurbani or NOT?

[Quest4Akal]

My personal experience. Never ever ever ever follow anyone except guru granth sahib ji.

Having said that there is nothing wrong in my opinion to listening to and getting knowledge from babas singing dharna. You know what i'm sick of. People making sikhi into this cookie cutter faith that everyone has to fit into. Why should we do it this way. Not everyone is at the same level. How can people tell me that dharna's are wrong. Have you lived my life, do u know what i have been through. Look at my personal example when i was in high school.

I never had any sikhi sangat around me. Sure my parents did paath and what not, but they never really taught me much about it. I never listened to kirtan. WHY?? Cause i never understood it. So one day i'm looking through old videos, i find one that says sant baba _____ singh ji. Never heard of sants before thought i'd check it out. Pop it in and woah this "evil" sant is talking in punjabi that i understand. And hes singing some lines that are giving me josh, Wow these lines are actually making me proud to be a sikh. I kinda realize why i keep my kesh. So i watch these videos as much as i can for about a year. I get excited when i watch them i get goosebumps cause i understand sikhi finally.

I remember i wanted to cut my hair so badly because u know i wanted a girl friend. And then i'm watching this "evil" sant who is singing "kachi bani" which is "evil". And this sant is talking about the story of i believe akali phula singh. About how the muslim ruler was at his wits end trying to kill the sikhs. He said we keep on attacking and attacking these sikhs don't give up. What should we do. His advisor being very smart said. " we should topple their character, because without asool they are nothing." So they decided to seduce the general of the sikhs, they sent their most beautiful rani to seduce akali phula singh. She came into the tent and asked " i need a son like you" meaning she wanted to sleep with him. What did akaali phoola singh do he said "Fine, from this day on you are my mother i am ur son." She went back and told the king these sikhs will never be defeated because they are men of faith and character.

WOW. I thought. WOW as i heard the singing of "evil kachi bani" Sir javey to javey meri sikhi sidhak na jaavey". I had such a josh in me, i had goosebumps. I felt ashamed how can i cut my hair when they were great mahan gursikhs out there who had such high character. If the gursikhs were that great how great were the Guru's. I honestly never wanted to cut my hair after that. And then my journey started towards sikhi. I had so much love and pride in sikhi because of these videos.

So how are you gonna tell me that its evil? Seriously explain to ME. From my PERSONAL experience how this practice has brought me away from sikhi. You guys are so high on your horses with your this is anti- gurmat this isn't. How about the people who have never had any introduction to sikhi, who have no sangat. Who listen to these dharna's and get josh to read more about sikhi to do paath. Who stop listenign to dharna's and just go straight for gurbani. Like i have done.

I get most of my russ from only gurbani now. However once in a while i will listen to sants. Have dharna's hurt me. PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW they have.

You guys are the ones who coined the phrase kachi bani. Real sants would never even disrespect bani by putting the word kachi infront of it. That in my eyes is the real paap. You lot are disrespecting the word bani for your own agendas. Which sant has called their dharna bani. Baba ranjit even says to call his dharna's kachi bani is a paap, cause their dharnas are no where close to bani. When i speak about sikhi am i using kachi bani? When Akj sing dhan guru nanak is this not "kachi bani". I don't understand you lot.

You gotta problem with fake babay's. Then direct your anger towards them. Not the whole lot. Especially ppl like sant baba isher singh ji, sant baba nand singh ji, sant jarnail singh ji khalsa. Have you lived even one percent of their jeevans. SERIOUSLY don't give me your "views" on why you think its evil. Explain to me in MY SITUATION how these dharnas have hurt me, then i will agree with u. Your views on "kachi bani" don't make sense to me cause in my personal experience they have helped me.

I think people need to live in the hukam of guru maharaj, live the rehit that the khalsa is supposed to live. Don't ever stray from it. And as for the rest of it, if you do ur amrit vela and naam abiyaas you will know what is right or wrong in ur heart. And you will know who is speaking out of ego and who is speaking out of love.

In my opinion only follow the guru not some baba, Never give up ur amritvela, seva, simran and sangat. if someone is putting u towards guru ji then listen, if they speaking against, then mash up..lol.. as a last resort of course. As for these kachay pakkay ppl let em bicker with each other. Just watch the tamasha and enjoy god's play. Never give up ur amritvela, seva, simran and sangat.

Please forgive me if i have mispoken.

[N30S1NGH]

With regards to the mindset u state that not all need bibek budhi i ask u to name me a single individual who has magically attained the gyaan of gurbani without some sort of vichaar (be it with others thru converstaion, thru reading books, steekay, or thru self reflection of oneself on own). Every individual who has attained this gyaan attained it thru some sort of vichaar.  We do not have to look any further but the examples of our own gurus. Did bhai lehna jus one day wake up n say eureka!! i understand gurbani!! ?? No. He attianed that gyaan thru many years of sewa and active discourse with Guru Nanak. Same with Bhai Jetha ji, was he born with that gyaan? DId he acquire it on his own? No. He acquired it by becoming a servant at the door of Guru Amar Das Ji.

When did i said you don't need bibek buddi? When did i said individual does not need vichar with high spiritual people in order to gain gyan? Please stop misquoting me. Here is what i wrote "Certain jatha's and people belive gurbani reveal itself fully to anyone who has no knowledge, lacks bibek buddhi to do vichar, gyan to grasp Guru's wisdom. For them gurbani is straight up can be translated in one lines. That's a wrong mindset."

DO u think that the mahapursh of today are more capable or blessed then the gurus themselves that they are able to achive this gyaan on their own without any effort?? .

I do not beleive mahapursh are more blessed than Guru's. Yes when one reached turiya avastha, one merges with same nirankari jot(Vahiguroo) that Guru's are part of.

A sikh believes in the necessity of this need for active vichaar and understaning by the person themselves that we pray to Waheguru every day asking him for this gift: "Sikha noo sikhi dhaan, kes dhaan, BIBEK DHAAN"....if u feel that it is not important or not necesarry then perhaps you should rewrite this ardaas and give a new improved version of it for the sikh panth to recite And in case you wish to toe the line that oh this ardaas was created by jus a select few who didnt understand gurmat i shud like to remind u that this prayer for this bibek budhi is not man made, but comes fromt he guru himself:

hwir pirE suAwmI kY duAwrY dIjY buiD ibbykw ] rhwau ]

I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect

Again you misquoted me.. this is 2nd time. When did i said you don't need bibek buddi? ...this is not win or loss game debate ..may be for you not for me.. so stop being so desparate by putting words in someone's mouth. I request you to re-read my post again.

WIth regards to dharnaas. I think u have missed by point. I never accused everyperson who sings them of being anti-sikh or anti-guru. I myself stated that im sure many of these people have honest sincere intentions behind them. However, jus because ones intentions are gud doesnt make the means they use to carry them out good as well. For instance, taken to a extreme say one wants to rid society of crime n violence, does it mean they can just go out n shoot every criminal at will? The intentions of the person are obviously good, to help society, but the means used to caryy out them, shooting carelssly, are not.

Now using dharnaas, from its very basis is flawed and dangerous. U urself state in ur post that:

Everyone how little knowledge about sikh knows dharna's are meant to inspire people just like katha's. It's sung first then whatever dharna's are sung, gurbani tuk is provided corresponding to that dharna to ensure a) so people does not get confused and start considering dharna's as gurbani. b) to ensure those dharna's are within Gurmat (see- singmota ji post).so steps were taken by first two sants sant baba attar singh ji mustaneiwaley and baba isher singh ji rara sahib who started dharna's as an tool(parchar) of sri guru nanak dev ji message by outreaching simple less knowledgeable people who does not even know how to read gurmukhi so that they can take laha as well....everyone should be able to take laha of sri guru nanak dev ji message just like when rain pours, it does not discriminate.

"Now dharna's started- It was first started by Raj Jogi 108 Sant baba Attar Singh Ji Mustaneywaley because he heard celestial voice(akash bani) telling him- Attar sian, population of sikhs is decreasing day by day, go simplify the message of sri guru nanak dev nirankar's for them. "

Now this statement has some very seroius assumptions in it which are detrimental to the true essence of sikhi.

1) No guru was ever concerned with a number count of sikhs. Their goal was never to get as many ppl sikhs as possible, or to get the whole world amritdhari and follow their way. If they were so concerned bout gettin more sikhs then they wouldnt have made the sikhi lifestyle so unique and difficult. But they did. Because their goal wasnt to simply get a high number count of sikhs by name, rather they were focused on transforming society as a whole. And they made the path of sikhi very different and challenging cuz they wanted only the most able and committed of people to join this path. That is why even then, durin the times of Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind the sikhs were always a minority yet no GUru ever worried or exclaimed that we need to go out n make more sikhs

Even during the time of Amhed Shah and during the galugharas, when thousands of sikhs were wiped out in a few months, when the population of sikhs was nearly destroyed why did no one then feel a sudden danger that oh we should get more ppl initiated into Sikhi? SIkhs were hunted openly at will yet every sikh kept full faith in the gurus bani alone and it was enought to keep Sikhi alive and ultimately take over the tyrranical rulers. Yet today, when we are free to walk, talk as we like in these countries with full rights and freedom, y now do we feel a sudden danger that sikhi is being lost? Is it because ppl have become more dumb than before and are incapable of understanding gurbani or is it because no focus has ever been layed on the original gurbani and ppl have forgotten all about it?

They were not concerned about numbers..i agree but everything is in akaal purkh hakum..sri guru gobind singh ji prophecisied that khalsa shall rule, 960 million khalsa shall be..would you accuse guru sahiban that he made a prophecy about khalsa shall rule and 960 million khalsa and some how he cared about numbers in panth.

is that all your mindset to grasp wisdom? guru ji simply conveying message in his prophecy(sau sakhi) given to him by akal purkh - - raj karega khalsa akhaie rahi na koi, 960 million khalsa be. He also mentoned this prophecy will be later fullfilled by my ladlaie's(mahapursh). One of them - Sriman 108 sant baba attar singh ji mustaneywale. In his sau sakhi Gurdev pita in hakum of akaal purkh writes:

nand singh,garja singh aadi,

jin laaj panth ki saaji

deva singh, attar singh soora

karm singh , ram singh poora,

kapoor singh , gurbakhs singh ,

chola singh , sajan singh ,

maare mare bahut din beete

aavaa naarad muglo beete

taan pashe suni bhoon hoyi

malak hum ko dise na koi

There were three attar singhs, all of them were mahapursh, all them from malva region, all at the same time(sant baba attar singh ji mustaneywale, reru sahib wale, attaley sahib waley) to fullfill prophecy told by sri guru gobind singh ji in the hakum of Vahiguroo. This was pre-odained by akal purkh in form of gurdev dasam patsah..all their approaches, way of doing parchar were already within "Gurmat" whether it's a dharna, katha's, updesh. They were bakshi hoi rouha.

Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji describes them as:

Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji explain such great souls by saying Dhan Dhan Dhan 3 times referring to bhramgyani's/karaks-

Dhan Dhan Dhan jan aa-i-aa.

Blessed, blessed, blessed is the coming of that humble being;

jis parsaad sabh jagat taraa-i-aa.

by his grace, the whole world is saved.

you know why sri guru arjan dev ji said - Dhan Dhan Dhan three times ??

First Dhan is for bhramgyani who is born in this kalyug in sargun form.

Second Dhan for bhramgyani to be in this kalyug yet being nirlaip from maya - Bhramgyani sada nirlaip jisaie jal mein kamal alaip ||

Third Dhan for bhramgyani to go from this world with full fateh(victory over mind)- Soraj Kiran Milli Jal Ka Jal hoya Ram Joti Jot Rali Sampuran Thiya Ram ||

2) Was guru nanak so short sighted that he didnt realize his message was too difficult for the average person to understand? Didi guru gobind singh not think of the fact that i am going to bestow gurushup for eternity on guru granth sahib that maybe i shud chek if ppl will even be able to understand it? Over the past 500 years were all sikhs blind and not realize oh gurbani is too dificult and no one will understand it? Y did this desire come up only within last 100 years?

Do not belittle the value of Guru Nanaks bani by saying that it is too difficult and we need to simplify it. Are we wiser and more clever than Nanak himself that we can make his message better? IF there is any problem or something lacking, it is not in gurbani itslef but rather that we as a panth have not given proper focus on gurbani. Instead of trying to udnerstand gurbani ourselves and teach it to others we have chosen a simpler method of composing our own home-made rhymes n gettin ppl focused on those instead of gurbani. How many ppl in the saadhsangat who listen to thes dharnaas, or sit in sangat of ppl who focus primarily on singing these dharnaas can actually read,write and understand even the meaning of jap ji sahib?? Im sure they can all very well memorize and understand a few catchy lines form a dharnaa yet can they understand or even remember the various pauris of Jap Ji?

If Guru Sahib's message was straight forward to anyone understand there is no need for parchariks who do katha's, dharna's, write steeks of sri guru granth sahib... If dharna's can confuse people so as katha's..it's people fault.. how is it's parcharak fault? despite of parcharaik taking neccesary steps to avoid confusion...just take any divan by those who sing dharna's.. roughly minimum there is 15 minutes of dharna, rest is all katha total 1 hr 15-30 minute in the divan....what crime they commited if they sing dharna's within in gurmat .. for example- " Dhan hai Dhan hai sri guru nanak dev ji dhan hai until 11th guru granth sahib ji), ??

so you think there is no need for parcharars since message of gurbani is simple and reveal itself fully to everyone??... Why don't you take your concerns to sri akaal takth sahib tryin to excommunicate the parchar tradition, including parcharaks?

Tell me this, if there is the possiblity that ppl might take it wrong why even create a situation where that potential exists. IF someone is so enlightened where they realize that people may misuse their dharnaas wudnt they also realize that to prevent any confusion at all, it is better to use and sing only gurbani? If they want to explain gurbani then there is nothing wrong with that, in fact it shuld be encourged. But what is the reason to have to sing and use music for ones own compositions? Cant they jus keep the singing limited to gurbani and anything else they wanna explain do it thru talkin alone? Why do they have to mix sining of dharnas with gurbani? Are there not enough shabads to sing? Are ther not enought raags in SGGS that we dont need to compose our own music?

why create suitations or parchar tools where potential exists that people may take wrongly? this is ridicolous and insecure statement..potential danger exist in everything.

you tell me-

why teach shastar vidya to one who wears 5k's? is there NOT any potential danger where that person who look like khalsa may be in fact rss or mughal/turk..and will use that vidya against sikhs bodies?

why teach raag vidya to one who wears 5k's? is there NOT Any potential danger where that person who look like khalsa may be in fact has malicious intentions of making money outtta raag vidya?

why teach someone scholarship to one who wears 5k's? is there NOT Any potential danger where that person who look like khalsa may be in fact has malicious intentions of person minsinterpertating gurbani or scholarship and use it in favour of their own hidden agenda?

you feel threatned by short dharna's in divan? what about those potential dangers mentioned above by me? where you cross the line?

[GuruManeyoGranth]

My personal experience. Never ever ever ever follow anyone except guru granth sahib ji.

Having said that there is nothing wrong in my opinion to listening to and getting knowledge from babas singing dharna. You know what i'm sick of. People making sikhi into this cookie cutter faith that everyone has to fit into. Why should we do it this way. Not everyone is at the same level. How can people tell me that dharna's are wrong. Have you lived my life, do u know what i have been through. Look at my personal example when i was in high school.

I never had any sikhi sangat around me. Sure my parents did paath and what not, but they never really taught me much about it. I never listened to kirtan. WHY?? Cause i never understood it. So one day i'm looking through old videos, i find one that says sant baba _____ singh ji. Never heard of sants before thought i'd check it out. Pop it in and woah this "evil" sant is talking in punjabi that i understand. And hes singing some lines that are giving me josh, Wow these lines are actually making me proud to be a sikh. I kinda realize why i keep my kesh. So i watch these videos as much as i can for about a year. I get excited when i watch them i get goosebumps cause i understand sikhi finally.

I remember i wanted to cut my hair so badly because u know i wanted a girl friend. And then i'm watching this "evil" sant who is singing "kachi bani" which is "evil". And this sant is talking about the story of i believe akali phula singh. About how the muslim ruler was at his wits end trying to kill the sikhs. He said we keep on attacking and attacking these sikhs don't give up. What should we do. His advisor being very smart said. " we should topple their character, because without asool they are nothing." So they decided to seduce the general of the sikhs, they sent their most beautiful rani to seduce akali phula singh. She came into the tent and asked " i need a son like you" meaning she wanted to sleep with him. What did akaali phoola singh do he said "Fine, from this day on you are my mother i am ur son." She went back and told the king these sikhs will never be defeated because they are men of faith and character.

WOW. I thought. WOW as i heard the singing of "evil kachi bani" Sir javey to javey meri sikhi sidhak na jaavey". I had such a josh in me, i had goosebumps. I felt ashamed how can i cut my hair when they were great mahan gursikhs out there who had such high character. If the gursikhs were that great how great were the Guru's. I honestly never wanted to cut my hair after that. And then my journey started towards sikhi. I had so much love and pride in sikhi because of these videos.

So how are you gonna tell me that its evil? Seriously explain to ME. From my PERSONAL experience how this practice has brought me away from sikhi. You guys are so high on your horses with your this is anti- gurmat this isn't. How about the people who have never had any introduction to sikhi, who have no sangat. Who listen to these dharna's and get josh to read more about sikhi to do paath. Who stop listenign to dharna's and just go straight for gurbani. Like i have done.

I get most of my russ from only gurbani now. However once in a while i will listen to sants. Have dharna's hurt me. PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW they have.

You guys are the ones who coined the phrase kachi bani. Real sants would never even disrespect bani by putting the word kachi infront of it. That in my eyes is the real paap. You lot are disrespecting the word bani for your own agendas. Which sant has called their dharna bani. Baba ranjit even says to call his dharna's kachi bani is a paap, cause their dharnas are no where close to bani. When i speak about sikhi am i using kachi bani? When Akj sing dhan guru nanak is this not "kachi bani". I don't understand you lot.

You gotta problem with fake babay's. Then direct your anger towards them. Not the whole lot. Especially ppl like sant baba isher singh ji, sant baba nand singh ji, sant jarnail singh ji khalsa. Have you lived even one percent of their jeevans. SERIOUSLY don't give me your "views" on why you think its evil. Explain to me in MY SITUATION how these dharnas have hurt me, then i will agree with u. Your views on "kachi bani" don't make sense to me cause in my personal experience they have helped me.

I think people need to live in the hukam of guru maharaj, live the rehit that the khalsa is supposed to live. Don't ever stray from it. And as for the rest of it, if you do ur amrit vela and naam abiyaas you will know what is right or wrong in ur heart. And you will know who is speaking out of ego and who is speaking out of love.

In my opinion only follow the guru not some baba, Never give up ur amritvela, seva, simran and sangat.  if someone is putting u towards guru ji then listen, if they speaking against, then mash up..lol.. as a last resort of course. As for these kachay pakkay ppl let em bicker with each other. Just watch the tamasha and enjoy god's play. Never give up ur amritvela, seva, simran and sangat.

Please forgive me if i have mispoken.

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Amazing post Veer Jee!!! :lol:

[N30S1NGH]

new twist to this topic,

does one even know history behind where guru amardas ji talks about kach bani in anand sahib? This is what happens when certain groups dont have any uthanka(historical context) of gurbani or beleive in katha's.

Someone needs to understand the context that the Guru wrote that shabad in. The shabad in question was uchaared when the the Prithi Chandiyas were writing "Gurbani" in the name of Guru Nanak to bring people to their Sangats.

Kachi Bani is "Bani" which isnt really of the pen of the Guru, but it is made out to be. A Dhadhi Vaar, katha, dharnas isnt kachi bani because it isnt made out to be the words of the Guru.

please learn some uthanka(historical context) of gurbani otherwise you going to make a grave mistake "misinterpeting your guru".

Gurbani does not revolve all around in sikhitothemax site..grab yourself steeks to understand..english translations wouldn't do any justice...english translations are good to give you spark but cannot provide uthanka(historical context) and adhatamic context(spiritual context) of gurbani.

That's why i don't quote gurbani that much..because i don't qualify for it to quote gurbani and use gurbani to support twisted beleifs and mindset.

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I got it confirmed, it's not prithi chandiya who was writing gurbani in name of sri guru nanak dev but it was guru angad dev ji's son. sorry for that mistake.

[Kharkoo4Life]

No Guru ever wrote or spoke about any prophecies. The only think the Gurus ever talked of was living in the Hukam of Waheguru, Bhana Man-na. Anyone who speaks of a prophecy goes against this very fundamental tenent of Sikhi because a prophecy by its very essence makes a guaranteed statement about the future. By stating that such and such thing WILL HAPPEN in future, it removes any motive or reason for people to engage in active karam. And honestly, what need is there really for karam then, if u already know that something is gonna happen, then one persons not doing something wont really change it. Slowly, this mindset infects everyone that why should we realy put any effort, cuz we already been told that the Khalsa will rule. But this was NEVER the intention of any guru. The whole central theme of gurus message revolves around the need for each individual to take charge of their lives and affect change around them, so why would they at the same time make a statement totally contradictory to this and say oh, regardless if u make that effort or not its gonna happen anyway??

Dont turn the guru into some sort of wizard or sorcerer who made predicitions or prophecies. By belieiving and spreading such false myths we are equating our guru to the likes of mystical men like nostradamus. The guru never spoke of the future cuz one who speaks of future becomes overtaken by ego. Even after reaching the supreme uvustha where they become completely one with waheguru such souls do not go around talkin of this n this will happen because god has told me. They remain forever humble and accepting of Gods Will.

The focus of Sikhi, unlike other dharams, is not the future. Sikhi does not teach someone that do good deeds now so that later after u die u will attain salvation. NO. At the same time sikhi also places no weight on ones past life. It does not concern itself with and become engrosses in the past. The focus in sikh is only the present! That is why the Guru was willing to forgive even the most cruel of rulers as long as they admitted their fault and promised to change their ways. The Guru tells us that do good deeds now and u will reap their rewards now as well.

When we become embroiled in stories about past or future that is how we are misled by those out to dismantle the beauty of Sikhi. This is how the now almost universally known myth of bachitar natak has been eroneously accepted as a truth. If we accept that the guru would prophesize about 960 million sikhs then it means we will also have to accept tht the guru was told the ridiculous prophecy in his "past life" that he wud take rebirth and fight in an epic battle to destroy evil. Why do we feel the need to add such fantasy kahaneez around our guru? These are all false.

When we hear the words Raj Karega Khalsa, it doesnt mean that thre needs to be a billion man force of Singhs roaming the streets for this to occur. Because in actuality, Khalsa is already in Raj. WHy? Cuz Khalsa is a representaion of God himself, a manifestation of his loftiest of virtues. God is always in command and ruling the universe, so how can his Khalsa not be in the same position either? God is not so weak that he needs a miilion gods under him to carry out his rule (this is the faulty thikin of hindu dharma) so why have we made the khalsa so weak that it too needs 960million ppl to rule? Khalsa is a set of values, principles, gunn which come to reside in the individual in the form of amrit-ras bani. And this is not dependant or linked to any number count.

SO i suggest you re read the history and meaning of these tuks before u use them to support any wild claims.

(by the way, this "prophecy" u quote wasnt even written by Guru Gobind Singh)

[N30S1NGH]

Ok ji, we agree to disagree...congrazs to you being such a " new age rational sikh', assi da pendu hain, sanu ki patta sikh baraie.

(by the way, this "prophecy" u quote wasnt even written by Guru Gobind Singh)

sorry must be written by OSHO ji? hanna?

[Bijla Singh]

KwVkU isMGw, KuS kIqw eI [

Very good posts. People, don't misunderstand his posts. He is attacking dharnas only not Gursikhs or their faith in Gurbani. Just one question: Do you not believe in physical Raaj of Khalsa that Bhai Rama Singh Ji talked about in his book? Or do you believe "Raaj" means only spiritual state like Professor Darshan Singh and Sikhnet believe in. Guru Rakha.

[Jai Tegang!]

katha is no different than dharnaa...it's a means to an end...=> connecting us to Gurbani.

Some people seem to have an allergic reaction when something other than Gurbani is being sung. This is such a twisted stance, it just baffles me. Why not have a similar reaction when something other than Gurbani is being plainly spoken (like in the case of katha, and even bachan bilas amongst gursikhs)?

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[Kharkoo4Life]

KwVkU isMGw, KuS kIqw eI [

Very good posts. People, don't misunderstand his posts. He is attacking dharnas only not Gursikhs or their faith in Gurbani. Just one question: Do you not believe in physical Raaj of Khalsa that Bhai Rama Singh Ji talked about in his book? Or do you believe "Raaj" means only spiritual state like Professor Darshan Singh and Sikhnet believe in. Guru Rakha.

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Fateh,

Which book are you referring to? And if you cud include an exerpt or short summary about the book i would be greatful.

As for raaj of khalsa to understand what it truly means we have to remember one key thing: the difference between physical existence and spiritual existence. The whole focus of gurbani (hence the guru) is to reform our spiritual state. In human terms this deals with our minds. To truly be free means to be in a state where ones minds is completley free of all vikaar (vices). This is when one can truly be considered to be living in freedom. Thus a free, sovereign mind is the hallmark of being in 'raaj'.

To equate freedom solely or even primarily with physical independence is utterly wrong. Even if a man is free from iron shackles around his feet, or cuffs around his hand, and is free to speak or do whatever he please (i.e. lives in a open democratic country) if his mind is still influenced and under the spell of any of the lust, greed, anger, attachment or ego then such a man can never be considered to be free. He may no longer be living in a country ruled by an oppresive regime but this point becomes irrelevant for the oppressor now has merely changed from a physical person or regime to the wandering ego of his own mind. Thus this person rather than being truly free or living in his own raj, is in actuality living under the raj of his haumay.

Khalsa in simple terms refers to one who has become pure. And as we all know, gurbani whereve it mentions purity talks of the purity of the inner self, of the mind...phsycial purity alone is given no value by the guru. Thus to be considered a true khalsa one must be pure from within. This means a pure mind. This is the key! That is why no matter if the guru (or any sikh for that matter) was ever captured or held prisoner, or being tortured, he never gave in to the opressor and always stayed in chardhi kala. Because they each were living in true freedom. And they knew that no shackle or physical threats could ever take this freedom of theirs away. This is why when Guru Arjun was charged with crimes, even tho he knew the allegations were false, he never faltered or became scared. He openly confronted the authorities about the false allegations fully knowing that taking such a bold stance would mean being held captive and perhaps even death. He set the example for all Sikhs to come that true freedom is freedom of the mind for this is eternal and none can snatch this from u and that mere phsyical freedom is only temporary and can easily be taken or given.

Now by saying this, i do not want anyone to get the false impression that we should focus solely on our spiritual existence and disregard all things phsyical. Because the colloray to the whole previous argument is that Sikh is set apart from many other faiths which also emphasize the importance of reforming ones mind by the doctrine of miri and piri. We have been told that when one actually dwells even deeper into Sikhi they will realize that true spirituality is not merely a single compartment of our life but rather the whole entirety of our life -- this means that all parts of our life, public, private, physical, mental they all should be grounded and revolving around a strong and pure spiritual base. This being said, it now becomes apparent that we cannot separate any part of our life from our spirituality, meaning if spirituality teaches us to incorporate noble virtues, gunn, in our life then we should apply these virtues and keep them in mind no matter what part of our life we are dealing with at any given time. At the same time tho, it is important to realize while we cannot separate anypart of our life from spirituality this does not mean that our spirituality is dependant on any particular part of our life. IN relation to this present topic, for example if we sit in a jail cell locked up, and thus not living in a state of 'indepdenat raj' physically it does not mean that any of our spirituality has been taken away from us and hence that we are no longer living in a state of indepedant raj spiritually.

Essentialy the key point and our focus should be to attain spiritual raj within oursleves. That is the goal for each memebr of Khalsa. Once they do that, then each member will realize that no earthly force can ever take away this spiritual raj of ours and thus remain in a constant state of control of their own minds. They will each then realize that Raj of Khalsa is not somethin which can be defined by artificial boundaries drawn on a map book dealing with control of a limited piece of earthly land but rather Raj of Khalsa is the supreme spiritual state where one is in complete control of their mind and is limitless and unconquerable by any earthly force. This is why when Sikhs lived in jungles, being hunted day in night, without any specific 'physical soverignty' they still proclaimed Raj Karega Khalsa because in fact they truly were living in a state of Khalsa's Raj.

IN summary, physical raj to a Sikh is secondary for a Sikhs life does not revolve around physical existence. If he has it he is content and even if he does not he is still content. He realizes that physical raj is not permanet and always comes and goes. No human force has ever retained physical raj forever. To a Sikh the primary ovjective is spiritual raj. This raj once attained is permanent. And once this raj is attained it no longer matters what piece of land he lives on, or who the ruler/owner of that land is for he remains in a state of complete bliss and remembrane of Waheguru.

Hope this answers ur question. I realize some points may not have been clearly expressed and if such is the case feel free to ask more ?'s.