Did Ram and Krishna exist?

[Mehtab Singh]

This is to be treated only as a news piece. Don't turn this thread into another one of those Hindu or Hinduism bashing ones. Its a request.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Displayarticle...ent_july455.xml

Did Rama exist? asks textbook

PATNA — The saying is history can’t be rewritten. Probably that’s why historians and governments go after rewriting history textbooks, triggering controversy each time.

The latest fracas is over the updated Class XI text — Ancient India — written by noted historian R.S. Sharma, who says there is no scientific evidence to prove the existence of “Rama” and “Krishna”.

Yesterday,  pro-BJP activists burnt effigies of five Leftist historians — R S Sharma, Irfan Habib, Romila Thapar, Satish Chandra and Arjun Dev — here to protest an attempt to distort facts by negating the existence of “Rama” and “Krishna” and terming Prithviraj Chauhan as a “traitor”.

Sharma defended his take on India’s past. He told TOI on Tuesday that Ancient India was written on the basis of scientific application of history with the strong support of original sources.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...bcontinent&col=

Sharma reiterates stand regarding Ram, Krishna

KOLKATA — A leading historian has said that there is no historical evidence whatsoever that Ram or Krishna, two deities worshipped by millions of Hindus in India and elsewhere, ever existed.

"Faith is one thing. But hard evidence is another", R.S. Sharma, 82, said after BJP and Sangh Parivar cadres burnt his effigies in Patna, accusing him of insulting Hinduism.

BJP and other extremist Hindu groups are angry with Sharma because his observations shatter their political line that Ram was born in Ayodhya. Now, they have dubbed Sharma a communist not fit to live in India, let alone propagate his views to misguide ordinary people.

According to Sharma, the projection of Ram as one born in Ayodhya and who later ruled it is factually incorrect and inconsistent with facts. "A king needs an army, taxation system and legions of officials to govern his kingdom. There is not even a hint of evidence to show that a king called Ram or an administrative infrastructure ever existed. So where is the question of his birth in Ayodhya?" According to Sharma, archaeological evidence is far more important than the so-called family tree cited in the Puranas scriptures. "So what if Puranic content is being used to date Ram of Ayodhya around 2000 BC. It is not borne out by scientific digging and excavation in Ayodhya by experts", he said.

Making light of the virulent protests by BJP members, he remarked: "They have burnt me when I am still alive. Now there is no need to cremate me if I die tomorrow." Sharma said that the Hindi version of his book on ancient India, Prarambhik Bharat Ka Parichay, was viciously attacked last year by BJP leaders who accused him of taking liberty with facts.

"But they had not even read my book. Some politicians are so busy instigating trouble and dividing societies that they have no time to read or write. All they do is shoot their mouths off", he said.

His book was withdrawn from the NCERT syllabus when the NDA was in power on the grounds that it was the handiwork of a Marxist historian.

I am still wondering why I posted this on a Sikh forum...LOL!

[Singh MC]

I think they existed because they are mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib

[gupt_paapi]

I think they existed because they are mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib

109435[/snapback]

nah they mentioned in Dasam Granth Sahib Ji and well Guru Ji didnt specify which God they were.. o soz im rong he did. anyways well yeh if u read Bachitra Natak then you'll get your answer fom there :TH:

I am still wondering why I posted this on a Sikh forum...LOL!

SAME!! we not hindus o well koina

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

is this the same Ram who in valmiki ramayan killed a shudra(low-caste) for doing bhagati...

In sikhi the word ram does come in gurbani, but as many scholars of SGGS have pointed out, they are not referring to Hindu Gods but rather names for the one Akaal Purakh God.

Anyways, there are people who are trying to find clues to the existence of jesus Christ...

Funny how the BJP, when in power banned these books but nobody ever managed to ban school books which say that Guru Teg bahadur Ji was a dacoit and that Banda Bahadur was not amritdhari...these things are still taught in schools in India.

I think from a Sikh perspective it is a non-issue, but from a historical viewpoint i think it would be cool to see if such kings or personalities did exist...But i doubt there will ever be proof of a hanumaan or ginesh though..

[Gupt daasan daas]

intresting, the pathway raam built, more than 17000 years old, to sri lanka from india, thought to be a myth, was discoverd by nasa

hmm

raam existed

but he was not god

a bhagath who made mistakes

but not god

all of them existted

bhula chuka maf

[waheguru_fateh]

Yes, they did exist, but they're not god or anything, they bow to god

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

I do not even know what village my great great grandparents were born in or whether they were Sikhs. Humans have a very limited understanding, sometimes not even beyond their own noses. Saying that scientific evidence does not exist does not mean anything. 200 years ago, nobody knew what the building blocks of DNA were or even what DNA was. It was commonly accepted that dead things gave birth to living things (flies are born from animal solid waste, rats from garbage etc.) a few hundred years ago. Doctors thought that leech therapy could cure everything and burning witches was not a voilation of anyone's religion. Science is the slow attempt of humanity to understand the world. And like many things, humanity makes a LOT of mistakes. Don't take it too seriously.

[Guest Lohgarh Singh]

wjkk wjkf

raam, krishna, shiva, vishnu etc all existed, guru ji states this themselves, but they were not Akaal

if they were, they wud not hav died and hav had the 5 eveils, for example, shiva was taken over by kaam

as 4 postin dis up on a sikhi forum, its gud 2 learn bout oda religions

[S1ngh]

some say that they are mythical figures and some say they did lived their life in bhagati way.. Whatever it is.. i would say.. Yes they did took birth in human form and lived their jeevan.. if they didn't then our 10 guru sahib jee would have told us that hindu dharam is fake and their gurus never took birth or so on.. But our guru sahibs didn't do that !

[Khalsa_starr]

I think they existed because they are mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib

109435[/snapback]

I think at one point or another, THEY WERE real people and did live on earth. However, are they gods? No, just simply pepple who have done greate things for other people.

A short but interesting opinion on ONE famous "god":

Take a look at the ramayana that "valmiki" composed. Today, you read the story and you wonder if some of the events that took place could ever happen. sure the people could have been real, and the location are legit, but moving mountains and jumping over seas is a little "tall"

So what happened? Most likely, the original story was far less dramatic and didnt have such superhuman events (also monkeys and demons). Writters who re-writ the story usually got their info from family tales and bits of the story passed down, as well as local leaders and and other previous compositions. That is where the story got its dramatic, superhuman, godlike properties!

Each time the story was passed down from person to person, whispered and taught to others, written and translated - the story was altered in some little way. At the end of the line (most recent versions to date), we get the dramatic ramayana that exists today.

This can be applied to why some hindu's worship rama today:

No doubt, rama existed, did his stuff, and died. The people who were near him and got some how effected by him, told the story of this man and his story. The idol of ramayana itself, might have originated from statues built to honor rama (and later on worshipped to honor him).

That is my opinion, yes, he existed.