2nd Generation Sikh Fanaticism

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

i jus came back onto the forum after a 1month hiatus, and just came across this thread today...seeing how long its become, dont know if anyone is still even readin it but i'll do my part n share my two cents worth

I think the whole confusion as to who is a sikh or who isnt, is one that has been goin on since the beginning of the origins of sikhi, and the gurus were cognisant of this fact, and that this question is one that wud be continued to be asked, and taken advantage of by those with alterior motives or simply lack of clear insight into sikh philosophy. So here goes in me tryin to sum up n clear any confusion as to what makes a sikh

- following the Hukam (or instructions, rules) laid out by our Guru (Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

- and what are those rules? the answer to that lays in reading, and understanding Gurbani, cuz only then and only then will be know the true instructions given to us by our Guru

- and yes, one can be a wonderful human being, be close to God, even one with him, but to call oneself a Sikh is still a lofty privilige and not a right..and this privilige is granted to us by the Guru alone and no one else...

- and the Guru has set out certain conditions for us to follow if we wish to call ourselves Sikhs, and these are:

so isKu sKw bMDpu hY BweI ij gur ky Bwxy ivic AwvY ]He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will. (p601)

One must obey the Guru's will, anotherwards the Gurus order (hukam) to be acknowledged by the guru as his sikh. And the Guru's will is clearly outlined in Gurbani. We have no moral authority to associate our own or outside reasoning or views on the Will of the Guru. The Gurus will is ONLY that which is written in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. ANd the guru is telling us that:

hukmu mMinhu gurU kyrw gwvhu scI bwxI ]

Obey the Hukam of the Guru's Command, and sing the True Word of His Bani

and to understand the hukam of the guru we must understand and follow the teachings of the Guru as laid out in gurbani:

aupdysu ij idqw siqgurU so suixAw isKI kMny ]

The Sikhs listen to the Teachings imparted by the True Guru.

gur isK lY gur isK sdwXw ]

Adopting the teachings of the Guru, the individual is called a Sikh of the Guru.

Then the question may arise how one knows if gurbani is even true? how can we place so much faith in it, that it is the actual word of the Guru or the word of God? To appreciate and believe that gurbani is the ultimate truth and the final word of the Guru one must be willing to place unconditional faith and trust in the Guru and God. And one can only fully realize this once they start to read and understand gurbani and start to follow it. Only then will they realize how beautiful and powerful Bani is and that it truly is the word of god:

siqgur kI bwxI siq siq kir jwxhu gurisKhu hir krqw Awip muhhu kFwey ]

O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.

And once a Sikh starts to read, and understand gurbani and start to incorporate it into his/her daily life then for such a person there is only one source, one foundation in which he/she lays all of their life’s decisions and reasoning on:

isKhu sbdu ipAwirho jnm mrn kI tyk ]

O Sikhs, love the Word of the Shabad; in life and death, it is our only support.

A simple measuring stick we can use to ask ourselves if we are a true Sikh or are at least making honest steps moving forward in the direction of becomin a true Sikh is how does our life compare with that of the Guru. Do we only pay lipservice to the Guru, their lives, their teachings or do we actually try to adopt the same lifestyle of the guru and incorporate their teachings into our own lives? Cuz once we start following the teachings of the Guru, both in theory and in practice, only then are we considered a True Sikh. And at that point cuz the qualities, the character, the values, the beliefs and the lifestyle becomes the same as the Guru, then that SIkh becomes one with the Guru. That is why Guru Gobind Singh bowed before the Panj Pyaray in humble adolation and gratitude cuz they had adopted the exact same lifestyle as he and had become his equal. That is why every guru sang the praises of a true sikh and wud always become full of radiant joy when they came across a sikh:

jnu nwnku mwgY DUiV iqn jo gurisK imq ipAwry ]1]

Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs who love the Lord, their Friend

jnu nwnku DUiV mMgY iqsu gurisK kI jo Awip jpY Avrh nwmu jpwvY ]2] Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the

Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

Anyways, hope some of this helps clear things up or at least make u question things and want to learn more.

Again apologiez if i have said something wrong.

[Paneet Singh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Fanatic:

marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

Fundamentalist:

a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

Please do not try to redefine fanatic.

I have defined both fundamentalist and fanatic in my earlier posts. Take the time to read above before posting.

Dude, I'm sorry to be rude here but that could quite possibly be the dumbest thing I have read on this post. Let me give you an example here, There is a bucket of water sitting in your driveway. You are going to use it to wash your car. An elephant walks by and thinks of it as a cool drink. An ant walks by and thinks of it as an ocean. And a tadpole hops by it and thinks of it as a home. Would you say to those animals that "NO! That can't be thought of in any other way besides a bucket of water that I need to wash my car with. It could not be used in any other way, it can not be thought of in any other way, it's a bucket for washing a car and that's it! That's Final!"EVERYONE HAS THERE OWN OPINIONS! Just because you define Fanatic one way, does not mean that it some one else can not think of it in another way. And don't even think about using the excuse "This is the dictionary definition." When the Tables and Chairs issue was going on in BC, Canada the media labeled the (for lack of a better phrase) floor sangat "fundamentalists." That doesn't fit at all. All the sangat that sat on the floor was doing is following the Akal Takht's Hukam. That doesn't mean that they're Fundamentalists, it just means that they're following Hukam of the Akal Takht. Let's look at the term fanatic again:

Fanatic:

marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

Intense uncritical devotion? So are you saying that you only need to devote yourself to the Guru until you've devoted yourself just enough? So after that you can just stop devoting yourself because it is no longer necessary? That's all I can think of posting write now. Please forgive me if I offended anybody or made any mistakes.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

[buddasingh]

....

I find that Sikhs are more and more focusing on their outward appearance

....

If you’ve read this far you’ll be happy to know... I wear a turban ...

113780[/snapback]

Should we conclude from the above that you out of modesty wear your turban inside your stomach lining?

Sureal, nice english, I see you've mastered the masters language, but not the master. You harbour such passion about fanaticism... or should we say you harbour such fanaticism about passion?

Welcome to the forum. :nihungsmile:

[sureal69]

....

I find that Sikhs are more and more focusing on their outward appearance

....

If you’ve read this far you’ll be happy to know... I wear a turban ...

113780[/snapback]

Should we conclude from the above that you out of modesty wear your turban inside your stomach lining?

Sureal, nice english, I see you've mastered the masters language, but not the master. You harbour such passion about fanaticism... or should we say you harbour such fanaticism about passion?

Welcome to the forum. :nihungsmile:

114424[/snapback]

I do not understand a thing you are saying, maybe thats because you're an <banned word filter activated>. Write in coherant sentences if you want people to take you seriously. What is that about my turban inside my stomach? Very weird.

[sureal69]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Fanatic:

marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

Fundamentalist:

a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles

Please do not try to redefine fanatic.

I have defined both fundamentalist and fanatic in my earlier posts. Take the time to read above before posting.

Dude, I'm sorry to be rude here but that could quite possibly be the dumbest thing I have read on this post. Let me give you an example here, There is a bucket of water sitting in your driveway. You are going to use it to wash your car. An elephant walks by and thinks of it as a cool drink. An ant walks by and thinks of it as an ocean. And a tadpole hops by it and thinks of it as a home. Would you say to those animals that "NO! That can't be thought of in any other way besides a bucket of water that I need to wash my car with. It could not be used in any other way, it can not be thought of in any other way, it's a bucket for washing a car and that's it! That's Final!"EVERYONE HAS THERE OWN OPINIONS! Just because you define Fanatic one way, does not mean that it some one else can not think of it in another way. And don't even think about using the excuse "This is the dictionary definition." When the Tables and Chairs issue was going on in BC, Canada the media labeled the (for lack of a better phrase) floor sangat "fundamentalists." That doesn't fit at all. All the sangat that sat on the floor was doing is following the Akal Takht's Hukam. That doesn't mean that they're Fundamentalists, it just means that they're following Hukam of the Akal Takht. Let's look at the term fanatic again:

Fanatic:

marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

Intense uncritical devotion? So are you saying that you only need to devote yourself to the Guru until you've devoted yourself just enough? So after that you can just stop devoting yourself because it is no longer necessary? That's all I can think of posting write now. Please forgive me if I offended anybody or made any mistakes.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

114419[/snapback]

There can be varying opinions on any subjective issue, however language and its meaning are by thier nature objective. If it weren't so, language would lose its meaning where everyone of us would essential be unable to communicate.

Spiritual experience (Sikhism) subjective, the meaning of Fanatic, objective. So discuss with me Sikhism and I will listen to you, a discourse on english definitions and how we all feel that we can agree to disagree on the actual meaning of words makes you sound well, y'know what I'm thinking? That you're an <banned word filter activated>.

Sorry, but thats how it comes across. Our world isn't based on interpretation but on fact. Next you'll be telling me that the number one is actually two and two plus two is actually five. Objective vs Subjective, simple concept to master so run along and master it. Come back when you're done.

[sureal69]

Fateh,

i jus came back onto the forum after a 1month hiatus, and just came across this thread today...seeing how long its become, dont know if anyone is still even readin it but i'll do my part n share my two cents worth

I think the whole confusion as to who is a sikh or who isnt, is one that has been goin on since the beginning of the origins of sikhi, and the gurus were cognisant of this fact, and that this question is one that wud be continued to be asked, and taken advantage of by those with alterior motives or simply lack of clear insight into sikh philosophy.  So here goes in me tryin to sum up n clear any confusion as to what makes a sikh

- following the Hukam (or instructions, rules) laid out by our Guru (Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

- and what are those rules? the answer to that lays in reading, and understanding Gurbani, cuz only then and only then will be know the true instructions given to us by our Guru

- and yes, one can be a wonderful human being, be close to God, even one with him, but to call oneself a Sikh is still a lofty privilige and not a right..and this privilige is granted to us by the Guru alone and no one else...

- and the Guru has set out certain conditions for us to follow if we wish to call ourselves Sikhs, and these are:

so isKu sKw bMDpu hY BweI ij gur ky Bwxy ivic AwvY ]He alone is a Sikh, a friend, a relative and a sibling, who walks in the Way of the Guru's Will.                                                                            (p601)

One must obey the Guru's will, anotherwards the Gurus order (hukam) to be acknowledged by the guru as his sikh. And the Guru's will is clearly outlined in Gurbani. We have no moral authority to associate our own or outside reasoning or views on the Will of the Guru. The Gurus will is ONLY that which is written in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.  ANd the guru is telling us that:

          hukmu mMinhu gurU kyrw gwvhu scI bwxI ]

                Obey the Hukam of the Guru's Command, and sing the True Word of His Bani

and to understand the hukam of the guru we must understand and follow the teachings of the Guru as laid out in gurbani:

          aupdysu ij idqw siqgurU so suixAw isKI kMny ]

              The Sikhs listen to the Teachings imparted by the True Guru.   

        gur isK lY gur isK sdwXw ]

              Adopting the teachings of the Guru, the individual is called a Sikh of the Guru.

Then the question may arise how one knows if gurbani is even true? how can we place so much faith in it, that it is the actual word of the Guru or the word of God?  To appreciate and believe that gurbani is the ultimate truth and the final word of the Guru one must be willing to place unconditional faith and trust in the Guru and God.  And one can only fully realize this once they start to read and understand gurbani and start to follow it.  Only then will they realize how beautiful and powerful Bani is and that it truly is the word of god:

          siqgur kI bwxI siq siq kir jwxhu gurisKhu hir krqw Awip muhhu kFwey ]

          O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true.    The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.

And once a Sikh starts to read, and understand gurbani and start to incorporate it into his/her daily life then for such a person there is only one source, one foundation in which he/she lays all of their life’s decisions and reasoning on:

     

isKhu sbdu ipAwirho jnm mrn kI tyk ]

          O Sikhs, love the Word of the Shabad; in life and death, it is our only support.

A simple measuring stick we can use to ask ourselves if we are a true Sikh or are at least making honest steps moving forward in the direction of becomin a true Sikh is how does our life compare with that of the Guru.  Do we only pay lipservice to the Guru, their lives, their teachings or do we actually try to adopt the same lifestyle of the guru and incorporate their teachings into our own lives?  Cuz once we start following the teachings of the Guru, both in theory and in practice, only then are we considered a True Sikh.  And at that point cuz the qualities, the character, the values, the beliefs and the lifestyle becomes the same as the Guru, then that SIkh becomes one with the Guru.  That is why Guru Gobind Singh bowed before the Panj Pyaray in humble adolation and gratitude cuz they had adopted the exact same lifestyle as he and had become his equal.  That is why every guru sang the praises of a true sikh and wud always become full of radiant joy when they came across a sikh:

            jnu nwnku mwgY DUiV iqn jo gurisK imq ipAwry ]1]

                Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs who love the Lord, their Friend

              jnu nwnku DUiV mMgY iqsu gurisK kI jo Awip jpY Avrh nwmu jpwvY ]2]        Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the   

            Naam, and inspires others to chant it.

Anyways, hope some of this helps clear things up or at least make u question things and want to learn more. 

Again apologiez if i have said something wrong.

114412[/snapback]

I enjoyed reading your entire post. I have to agree with everything that you have said, however if I may add a little without taking anything away?

You mentioned a very powerful point that is often lost amongst this group thread I've been slamming my head against. That is, Gurbani above all, rehats etc.. are simply secondary. Things like the Panj Piara's saying that Sikhs can only refer to God as Waheguru is a compelete joke.

The guru granth Sahib starts out with Ik Oh Onkar. Onkar is a jain word for god. If Guru Nanak would have wanted us to refer to God in only one name he would not have used Ram, Gopal or any other word. Sikhism is a complex religion that cannot be simplified. Like I said before to experience the complete experience of Sikhism one must focus your energies on Gurbani. Following whatever rules that your local Baba or the person that gave you amrit or whom ever you consider to be your spiritual guide. If you're spiritual guide isn't Gurbani, then you'll fall prey to all the things that I've been discussing in the thread.

The second point which I do disagree with you on is, Gurbani was never intended to the word of God. Everyone seems to often refer to the Guru's as if they were godlike or god. As I remember it, they said they were inspired by their love for god or his love for us. I do not remember but maybe I was asleep on the day at the Gurudwara when they covered the fact that the Guru's said god spoke to them.

Very important difference. Most other religions dervie their authority from the fact that "God Spoke to Me". Sikhism says that we have written these words out of our love for god and inspired by not him but our love for him.

Please clarify. Later.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"I do not remember but maybe I was asleep on the day at the Gurudwara when they covered the fact that the Guru's said god spoke to them."

I think you were asleep because the Gurus said Baani is dhur ki baani meaning the word of God. I think you have been asleep for a while now. You talk about the importance of baani yet fail to know that is dhur ki baani...

peace bro.

[Jaspaul Singh]

ang 627

Page 627

soriT mhlw 5 ]

sorath mehulaa 5

Sorat'h, Fifth Mehl:

prmysir idqw bMnw ]

purumaesar dhithaa bunnaa

The Transcendent Lord has given me His support.

duK rog kw fyrw BMnw ]

dhukh rog kaa ddaeraa bhunnaa

The house of pain and disease has been demolished.

And krih nr nwrI ]

anudh kurehi nur naaree

The men and women celebrate.

hir hir pRiB ikrpw DwrI ]1]

har har prabh kirupaa dhaaree

The Lord God, Har, Har, has extended His Mercy. ||1||

sMqhu suKu hoAw sB QweI ]

sunthuhu sukh hoaa subh thaaee

O Saints, there is peace everywhere.

pwrbRhmu pUrn prmysru riv rihAw sBnI jweI ] rhwau ]

paarubrehum poorun purumaesur rav rehiaa subhunee jaaee

The Supreme Lord God, the Perfect Transcendent Lord, is pervading everywhere. ||Pause||

Dur kI bwxI AweI ]

dhur kee baanee aaee

The Bani of His Word emanated from the Primal Lord.

iqin sglI icMq imtweI ]

thin sugulee chinth mittaaee

It eradicates all anxiety.

dieAwl purK imhrvwnw ]

dhaeiaal purukh mihuruvaanaa

The Lord is merciful, kind and compassionate.

hir nwnk swcu vKwnw ]2]13]77]

har naanuk saach vukhaanaa

Nanak chants the Naam, the Name of the True Lord. ||2||13||77||

[Kharkoo4Life]

quote=sureal69,Aug 16 2005, 07:47 AM]

The second point which I do disagree with you on is, Gurbani was never intended to the word of God. Everyone seems to often refer to the Guru's as if they were godlike or god. As I remember it, they said they were inspired by their love for god or his love for us. I do not remember but maybe I was asleep on the day at the Gurudwara when they covered the fact that the Guru's said god spoke to them.

Very important difference. Most other religions dervie their authority from the fact that "God Spoke to Me". Sikhism says that we have written these words out of our love for god and inspired by not him but our love for him.

Please clarify. Later.

114476[/snapback]

Thank you for sharing ur points and questions with me. I will do my best to anwer them.

There are a number of points u bring up in ur reply which i wud like to address. The first is that u sugget that " Gurbani was never intended to be the word of God". I would completely disagree with that claim. If Gurbani is not the Word of God, then that is tatamount to suggest that it is like any other piece of literary prose conceived, written and arrange my mere ordinary mortals. And if such is the case then why shud one place any greater level of reverance or faith in these words if they are merely of human origin? Why bow every day before writings if they are not from God himself? Cus that wud mean we are bowing before soemthing material, and the Guru were strict opponents of bowing before any animate or inanimate object other then the Shabad Guru? And if these writing are merely written from love and not truly inspired by God, or spoken unto the Gurus by God, then why would the 7th Guru vehmently oppose and chastisize his own son for attempting to alter a mere few words of Gurbani? Was the Guru so full of ego that he did not want someone to change his writings?

The answer to this question is NO. It was not ego which drove the Guru to take this action but the fact that the Gurbani which his son tried to change for personal gain was the actual word of Waheguru. That is why the Guru took this assault on Gurbani so seriously. We must understand this concept of The Word, in order to appreciate the fact that the origin and source of Gurbani is God himself, and not some love, or inspiration for Him.

The birth or creation of the Universe originated from The Word (or kvwau). This is the absolute decision and message of Gurmat, as stated in the Bani.

kIqw pswau eyko kvwau ]

You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!

Such and enormous creation from a single word; how powerful and commanding must that word be! One can not even begin to fathom how powerful and potent the Creator of that word must be then, by whose single word such an immense creation was born. In making this creation however, the Creator put forth a very firm and unchangeable injunction/rule. To help us understand this injunction let us look at an example first.

There are numerous factories, plants which are making countless objects for our varied usage. Cars, stereos, tv’s, computers, houses etc. However, regardless what the item may be, amongst all the manufacturers there is a single common criterion behind the items’ usage. That if for some reason there ever appears a defect or problem with the item then only use the same parts/material as indicated by the manufacturer. Another words only use the same material as used before during the original manufacturing or else you are not only unlikely to properly repair the item but also pose the risk of further damaging the item.

For instance, consider for a moment if one were to have a driveway, wall or even house built of concrete and cement. And that for some unforeseen reason, accident, or tornado, earthquake or simply overuse there was to appear a crack or break in that wall or driveway. Then would you be able to adequately repair that damage with dirt? Or sand? Or wood? And if u did manage to temporarily repair it via one of these alternate methods, would that material provide the same strength and resilience as the originally used cement and concrete? No, of course. You would have to use concrete and cement again in order to repair it to its original state and minimize and future potential breakdown.

Similarly, when the wonderful Creator shaped this uniform he kept this concept in mind. That this world came to be from kvwau. From the Word, the Voice of God. And that as time passes, this world and the numerous beings living within it will be affected by the changing conditions and environments. This is unavoidable. There will always be times of difficulties, and situations will arise will create hardships, anxiety and problems, all with the potential to have deleterious effects on the psyche of man, so how is it possible to prevent these harmful effects from reaching mans mind? And if they do, how can they be removed and thus make mans mind pure again?

God in His infinite wisdom thus decided that in order to keep this world perfect and always full of energy and flourishing I will provide this world (i.e. mankind) with the same material from which it was manufactured. It should be noted here that any company which creates products but then decides not to offer any spare parts or servicing for that product, then almost no person will end up buying that product. All products are bound to falter and break down at some point but if the manufacturer isn’t even willing to provide any warranty or at least some spare parts for replacement then why would anyone even consider buying such a risk laden product? And if he attempts to get it repaired with different parts of an alternate manufacturer than there is no guarantee of success. In fact, the manufacturers go so far as to accompany every product with a warning that if you make any attempt to repair this product with non-genuine parts or materials then we are not responsible for any damage caused. We only guarantee the materials and repair done by own manufacturing plant.

In the same way, Waheguru created authorized repair centers for his Creation. That if any problems or troubles arose in his Creation they could come to these authorized centers and receive the original manufacturer’s parts, i.e. His Word. And this part is essential for His Creation to keep working in perfect fashion.

jY qin bwxI ivsir jwie ]

That body, which forgets the Word of the Guru's Bani,

ijau pkw rogI ivllwie ]1]

cries out in pain, like a chronic patient

And this word of the Gurus bani is not something the Guru conjured up on his own, or soemthin written from some love for God. Rather it is exactly as God himself spoke to the Guru and instructed him to share wiht the people.

jYsI mY AwvY Ksm kI bwxI qYsVw krI igAwnu vy lwlo ]

As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo

sc kI bwxI nwnku AwKY scu suxwiesI sc kI bylw ]2]3]5]

Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time.

The Guru goes on to tell us, that these words are not of my own:

hau Awphu boil n jwxdw mY kihAw sBu hukmwau jIau ]

By myself, I do not even know how to speak; I speak all that the Lord commands.

There is no self-vested interested or alterior motive behind these words. There is no nklI unauthorized parts anywhere in Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

The second point i wud like to discuss is the idea that the Gurus were Godlike or God. Again there is an important concept to understand behind this in order for us to appreciate which claim is true and which is false. But as i have to get going now, i will try n cover this topic later. Hope, the above helps clarify what u were asking bout.

Fateh

[navdeepsingh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

sureal69, you've played your part well. You've handled everything professionally. Don't reduce your level down to those who call you names by retaliating and calling them idiots.

I thought this thread would have been done at post #105, when sureal69 seemingly attempted to end everything by saying, at least from what I interpreted, the points he had brought to attention in his first post had been addressed and he was satisfied with the responses given.

I find it fascinating how this thread has in some respects through discussion uncovered all of the biases that I intially wrote about in my first post. For some people who wrote the more absurd posts, you know who you are and what you've got to change about your thinking.

I would like to thank everyone for participating and I hope we can continue trying to figure out why and how our religion has changed in a direction that is difficult to support or defend.

I have to say, however, that I'm glad it didn't. The reason for this is that more posts containing Gurbani were seen and we all benefitted from those. Thank you Kharkoo4Life, Jaspaul Singh and those before them that kept civil tongues.

The great thing about forums is that people can come together and discuss matters, yet, more often than not, they turn into arguments. Let's try to be civil and not take things personally and, in turn, resort to throwing names at our brothers and sisters.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh