Jooth

[sher_panjabi]

I think we should be using the word 'Sucham' rather than using the negative form of 'Jooth'.

A Sikh is required according to Guru's Rehat to keep 'Sucham' (i.e. hygiene and cleanliness).

As a result an Amritdhari does not share his food on his plate which has been eaten or eat the food off other's plate etc.

A SIKH SHOULD SHARE FOOD - but also keep hygiene... so you distribute food before eating then everyone eats in their individual plate... i don't know why this seems to bother some people.... its not pleasant to share people's saliva and germs so its practical Rehat.

In regards to eating from plate of Amritdhari if you are Amritdhari. You should generally avoid eating off anyone's plate etc. However, to what I have been told by Singhs is that you should only share food off same plate with an Amrithdari whom you know keeps Rehat. i.e. not share food with an Amrithdhari but who is lax in Rehat etc.... that probably links into that a strict Rehat-vaan Amritdhari keeps hygiene is clean, has positive energy, remembers Waheguru and thanks Waheguru when eating etc.

bhul chuk maaf.

In regards to PURE and IMPURE food and praying over food to make it pure. This is BRAHMANISM. Sikhs do Ardaas before eating - not to make the food PURE but to thank the Almighty Waheguru for blessing his with Food and providing sustenance to his children.

Gurbani says:

AMg 473

ang 473

Page 473

sloku mÚ 1 ]

sulok mu 1

Shalok, First Mehl:

pihlw sucw Awip hoie sucY bYTw Awie ]

pehilaa suchaa aap hoe suchai baithaa aae

First, purifying himself (by washing himself), the Brahmin comes and sits in his purified enclosure.

sucy AgY riKEnu koie n iBitE jwie ]

suchae agai rakhioun koe n bhittiou jaae

The pure foods, which no one else has touched, are placed before him.

sucw hoie kY jyivAw lgw pVix sloku ]

suchaa hoe kai jaeviaa lugaa purran sulok

Being purified, he (the Brahmin) takes his (‘pure’) food, and begins to read his sacred verses.

kuhQI jweI sitAw iksu eyhu lgw doKu ]

kuhuthee jaaee sattiaa kis eaehu lugaa dhokh

But it is then thrown into a filthy place (meaning the stomach) - whose fault is this (to throw the pure food in a dirty place)?

AMnu dyvqw pwxI dyvqw bYsMqru dyvqw lUxu pMjvw pwieAw iGrqu ]

ann dhaevuthaa paanee dhaevuthaa baisunthur dhaevuthaa loon punjuvaa paaeiaa ghiruth

The corn is sacred, the water is sacred; the fire and salt are sacred as well; when the fifth thing, the ghee, is added,

qw hoAw pwku pivqu ]

thaa hoaa paak pavith

(meaning by mixing all these ingredients) then the food becomes pure and sanctified.

pwpI isau qnu gifAw Qukw peIAw iqqu ]

paapee sio thun gaddiaa thukaa peeaa thith

Coming into contact with the sinful human body, the food becomes so impure that is is spat upon.

ijqu muiK nwmu n aUcrih ibnu nwvY rs Kwih ]

jith mukh naam n oochurehi bin naavai rus khaahi

That mouth which does not chant the Naam, and without the Name eats tasty foods

nwnk eyvY jwxIAY iqqu muiK Qukw pwih ]1]

naanuk eaevai jaaneeai thith mukh thukaa paahi

- O Nanak, know this: such a mouth is to be spat upon. ||1||

Bhagat Kabeer Ji takes about "jooth" (impurity):

AMg 1195

ang 1195

Page 1195

bsMqu ihMfolu Gru 2

busunth hinddol ghur 2

Basant Hindol, Second House:

<> siqgur pRswid ]

ik ounkaar sathigur prusaadh

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

mwqw jUTI ipqw BI jUTw jUTy hI Pl lwgy ]

maathaa joothee pithaa bhee joothaa joothae hee ful laagae

The mother is impure, and the father is impure. The fruit they produce is impure.

Awvih jUTy jwih BI jUTy jUTy mrih ABwgy ]1]

aavehi joothae jaahi bhee joothae joothae murehi abhaagae

Impure they come, and impure they go. The unfortunate ones die in impurity. ||1||

khu pMifq sUcw kvnu Twau ]

kuhu punddith soochaa kuvun thaao

Tell me, O Pandit, O religious scholar, which place is uncontaminated?

jhW bYis hau Bojnu Kwau ]1] rhwau ]

jehaa bais ho bhojun khaao

Where should I sit to eat my meal? ||1||Pause||

ijhbw jUTI bolq jUTw krn nyqR siB jUTy ]

jihubaa joothee boluth joothaa kurun naethr sabh joothae

The tongue is impure, and its speech is impure. The eyes and ears are totally impure.

ieMdRI kI jUiT auqris nwhI bRhm Agin ky lUTy ]2]

eindhree kee jooth outhuras naahee brehum agan kae loothae

The impurity of the sexual organs does not depart; the Brahmin is burnt by the fire. ||2||

Agin BI jUTI pwnI jUTw jUTI bYis pkwieAw ]

agan bhee joothee paanee joothaa joothee bais pukaaeiaa

The fire is impure, and the water is impure. The place where you sit and cook is impure.

jUTI krCI prosn lwgw jUTy hI bYiT KwieAw ]3]

joothee kurushee purosun laagaa joothae hee baith khaaeiaa

Impure is the ladle which serves the food. Impure is the one who sits down to eat it. ||3||

gobru jUTw caukw jUTw jUTI dInI kwrw ]

gobur joothaa choukaa joothaa joothee dheenee kaaraa

Impure is the cow dung, and impure is the kitchen square. Impure are the lines that mark it off.

kih kbIr qyeI nr sUcy swcI prI ibcwrw ]4]1]7]

kehi kubeer thaeee nur soochae saachee puree bichaaraa

Says Kabeer, they alone are pure, who have obtained pure understanding. ||4||1||7||

when eating a Sikh prays:

ijs dw idqw Kwvxw iqsu khIAY swbwis ]

jis dhaa dhithaa khaavunaa this keheeai saabaas

Let us all celebrate Him, from whom we receive our nourishment.

nwnk hukmu n cleI nwil Ksm clY Ardwis ]22]

naanuk hukum n chulee naal khusum chulai arudhaas

O Nanak, no one can issue commands to the Lord Master; let us offer prayers instead. ||22||

[munjoth]

reference one person that has become "mukht" or are at such a level and eats jooth..

[Taksali Singh]

WJKKWJKP!

There have been some good point raised for both sides of the arguement...

Kharkoo Jee...here are a few answers to the points/comments/questions you made..

How does bani make food pavitar pure? If a cup of water is contaminated with bacteria, viruses, parasites, toxins, dirt or any other kind of filth how will reciting bani rid that cup of water of this filth? We have to use rational means here, of either boiling that water, using filtration devices etc to purify that water, otherwise no matter how many times we say waheguru that water will not magically become clean.

By using this mentality you are then saying that the Sarovar of Sri Harmandar Sahib is NOT pure and pavitar because there are fish which swim, eat and excrete within the same water. However, I believe that because of the bani that is played 24/7 that the mere "water" turns from being a polluted substance of hydrogen and oxygen into something much more powerful and spiritual (AMRIT)... If you too believe this then your statements are false...

im sure u dont stand there 24 hours watching every sevadaar clean every morsel of food from every type of contamination. Its all an assumption that it has been.

Yes you're right i dont stand there watching over every sevadaars as they prepare the langar, however Bhog is done to that Langar, which in my belief and understanding makes that Langar Pure as my Pure Guroo has accepted it. As for the contamination, that goes back to my earlier comment.

are you saying that a Sikh shows his love for a guru by choosing who he sits and eats with? How does this show our respect to our Guru?

Sikhs never segregate themselves from others. By all means sit and join someone for food, this is the whole idea and concept started by Satguroo Jee however, there is a difference in sitting with someone and eating from their plate. Sitting with someone is fine and shows equality, eating from their plate shows nothing... How does eating from someones plate show love, equality and respect? You can show all of these qualities by merely sitting next to them and eating from your own plate!

Your comments on Baba Ghanaiya Jee are true to some extent but we weren't there so we do not know what happened... Maybe Baba jee gave the water from a distance and maybe they gave it directly into the soldiers hands, what we have to look at are the circumstances. That was a life a death situation, it was probably unavoidable, however we can avoid these circumstance just by being a little more cautious. There's nothing wrong in being careful and cautious about what we eat and where it comes from...

If a sikh should practice such lofty "purity" why shouldnt we excercise the same amount of respect and diligence for our fellow non sikh brothers and sisters and ensure they too remain "pure". Is their purity not as importance to us?

If they have not given their head to Satguroo Saahib Sri Guroo Granth Saahib Jee Maahaaraaj then they are not amritdhari and therefore it is unacceptable for an Amritdhari to eat from the same plate. Like i said, by all means eat WITH a non-amritdhari, or even a non-Sikh. But you don't need to eat from their plate in order to show respect for them! If this was the case then i'd have to eat from every single Gursikh i respected and that's going to take me a lifetime to achieve! Think about what your saying. You have good points, others just dont make sense...

Yet again i beg for forgiveness...Im nothing...Im no one...

May Guroo Saahib Jee bless us all as their beloved children, so we can have the Gyan to see the One Jot in all and that we can keep strict Rehat...

WJKKWJKP!

[ParwinderSingh]

Actually Gurbani can make the dirty cup clean, anything is possible when we have full faith in Wahe Guru. Also it does make a difference to the food if it is prepared when Gurbani or naam simran is being done.

We shouldn't share food with anyone and the fact that no one can stay away from eating out or takeaways etc that they just shun the whole concept of 'jooth', instead of searching properly and findin the answers.

No one can find the answer unless they have an open mind to it, someone whos already made up their mind that they will not change wont find the answers to any questions in life.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

Thank you for your responses. It is thru open vichaar like this that we are able to learn from each other and make each of ourselves stronger in our Sikhi.

How does bani make food pavitar pure? If a cup of water is contaminated with bacteria, viruses, parasites, toxins, dirt or any other kind of filth how will reciting bani rid that cup of water of this filth? We have to use rational means here, of either boiling that water, using filtration devices etc to purify that water, otherwise no matter how many times we say waheguru that water will not magically become clean.

By using this mentality you are then saying that the Sarovar of Sri Harmandar Sahib is NOT pure and pavitar because there are fish which swim, eat and excrete within the same water. However, I believe that because of the bani that is played 24/7 that the mere "water" turns from being a polluted substance of hydrogen and oxygen into something much more powerful and spiritual (AMRIT)... If you too believe this then your statements are false...

This is a major misconception amongst the masses that pani, and for that matter any food can become somethin greater than ordinary by mere sound of bani. The sarovar around Sri Darbar Sahib, Amritsar should be treated with respect for it is a place of great sanctity, history and significance and i do not contest that point but how can we call that pani amrit? If your logic of bani somehow transforming the polluted water into amrit is true than why was has there been the repeated need to do karseva of the sarovar? Why after each time the Darbar Sahib was attacked and sarovar riddled with blood and filth did people have to PHYSICALLY clean the sarovar? If the power of mwerely the sound of bani is so strong and able to sanctify the pani into something so powerful and spiritual as amrit, than the simple task of decontaminating mere earthly material filth should be no problem.

Also by your above stated logic, if mere sound current of bani is enuf to make water into amrit, than i ask u if i were to palce a large jug of water, and put on live kirtan feed 24/7 on a stereo next to that jug will that jug somehow turn into amrit? Amrit is a very important and essential part of Sikhi jeevan, one which should be regarded with the utmost respect so do not belittle its value by attributing its significance to something so ordinary.

Yes you're right i dont stand there watching over every sevadaars as they prepare the langar, however Bhog is done to that Langar, which in my belief and understanding makes that Langar Pure as my Pure Guroo has accepted it. As for the contamination, that goes back to my earlier comment.

What do u mean by Bhog? How does this transform the food into somethin of divine purity? Such thinking is tantamount to brahmin matt. Are you implying that the food that God Himself creates, food He Himself nourishes and grows somehow is impure and that He needs us humans to make it pure? This was the thinking that brahmins, kajeez used to keep the common hindu and muslim person at their mercy. During the celebrtion of Eidh, a grand feast is eaten by the muslims marking the end of their fast. However, after cooking the food, they wait for the kaazee to come and read droodh (a form of prayer) and bless their food. Only after this is done are they allowed to eat it.

nwnk pITw pkw swijAw DirAw Awix maujUdu ]

O Nanak, he grinds the corn, cooks it and places it before himself.

bwJhu siqgur Awpxy bYTw Jwku drUd ]2]

But without his True Guru, he sits and waits for his food to be blessed.

The guru rejects this ritualistic practice so how can u say that the guru has somehow accepted a practice of purifying the food by reading bani? how does that practice differ from that of muslims reading from koran? The Guru says there is no need for such karam kaand. It is not the food which is impure or needs to be purified but rather our minds. And how do we purify it, through understanding and following the teachings of the Guru. The Guru answers this in the next lines:

nwnk BusrIAw pkweIAw pweIAw QwlY mwih ]

O Nanak, even if the bread is cooked on floor and then placed on the plate.

FONT=GurbaniWebThick]ijnI gurU mnwieAw rij rij syeI Kwih ]3][/font]

Those who obey their Guru, eat and are totally satisfied

Poosri, means roti made without proper stove/oven. In olden times, very poor ppl used either a simple brick and some even just floor to cook their food cuz they cud not use any utensils=this was known as poosrit. The guru makes a strong reference here, that for a sikh his contentment in life doesnt rest in small meaningless rituals (eg. how is food is prepared, wut utensils, with or without special prayer) but rather in pleasing his guru by folliwng his teachings. When he lives according to the Hukam of Waheguru, than even if he is forced to eat off the ground he remains worry free and happy.

Now take that message from our Guru and compare it todays practice. Here we are worried if the plate or even cup touches someone elses, yet the guru is sayin it is ok even if a sikh eats off the ground, (ground which countless ppl walk on, millions of germs, bacteria, ants crawl around on) it wont effect him so long as his mind remains absorbed in waheguru.

ALso as for the gurdwara langar, you agree that you dont sit and watch them cook it but u are willing to place full faith in a mere ceremony of bhog of making it pure. You say that the rehit of eating food only prepared by amritdhari is important, well how can u say that of the countless sevadaars in the kitchend cooking and serving that a few may be non-amritdhari. Who knows how many ladies and men who are not amritdhari may have spend many hours repeatedly touching the food, cutting it, washing it, kneading the atta, then serving it?

Sikhs never segregate themselves from others. By all means sit and join someone for food, this is the whole idea and concept started by Satguroo Jee however, there is a difference in sitting with someone and eating from their plate. Sitting with someone is fine and shows equality, eating from their plate shows nothing... How does eating from someones plate show love, equality and respect? You can show all of these qualities by merely sitting next to them and eating from your own plate!

My argument was not that we shud have to dip our spoon into someone elses plate and eat from there, but rather that touching of plates, cups, spoons etc. does not make our food impure. Even taking food from a common plate, eg. salad, doesnt make it impure. Now consider the simple example of spoons at langar hall, they are usually in a single bucket or container, and everyone reaches in to pick one spoon out and who knows where the previous 100 ppl's hands were before. By your argument this would make the spoons contaminated so should they have a "special" sections for spoons only for amritdhari people?

ALso, consider Guru Nanak. He travelled far and wide for over 30 years all around the globe. Now he didnt take no personal amritdhari chef with him on these travels and nor did he have a 30 year supply of canned food in his backpack. In most cases it was just himself and bhai marhana ji so where did the food come from? And he cudnt have jus minimized or avoided food cuz travelling this far and for that long one needs a very physcially fit body, which is undoable without proper nutrition. Wherever the guru went he talked in the local dialect, lived with the local people, and most likely consumed their local dishes. Now he didnt have no bora of atta or saag with him to get the local chefs to cook forhim, so he must of ate wutever ws avaialable, and however the local shardhaloos brought it to him. In many places, diets consited primarily of seafood, fish etc so it is not farfetched to assume they ate that as well. Do u think the Guru ji worried bout the purity of the food being made? Do u think he questioned before eating every meal whre was this made, how was this made, and was it done by a amritdhari sikh?

mMnY mgu n clY pMQu ]

The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals

Your comments on Baba Ghanaiya Jee are true to some extent but we weren't there so we do not know what happened... Maybe Baba jee gave the water from a distance and maybe they gave it directly into the soldiers hands, what we have to look at are the circumstances. That was a life a death situation, it was probably unavoidable, however we can avoid these circumstance just by being a little more cautious. There's nothing wrong in being careful and cautious about what we eat and where it comes from...

From a distance? He didnt have no hose with him to pump the water. People seriously wounded have to be cared for up close, meaning touching the patient. You cant jus throw water at them like some plant or tree from afar. And how can u use the logic that it was unavoidable so it was ok in that scenario. Are you saying a Sikh is allowed to break his rehit if the situation is life and death? What happend to the slogan "Sir Jaavay Ta Jaavay, pur Mera Sikhi Sidhak Na Javay"? In this case are you saying it was ok for the sikh to sacrifice his sidhak?

I agree with u thre is nothing wrong bout being careful and catious bout what we eat and where it comes from but one must excercise some common sense and reason as well. Reason whcih stems not from some baba, dera, or jatha but from Guru Granth Sahib.

I respect your views but it is imperative that we are able to analyze our own bliefs as well those of others on the kusvutee of gurmat, i.e. based on the teachings of gurbani. Otherwise what we do, the rehit we adhere to, the sikhi we uphold will all become mere karam kaand and be no different from the very rituals and blind faith the guru worked so hard to free us from.

AigAwnI AMDw bhu krm idRVwey ]

The ignorant and blind cling to all sorts of rituals.

mnhiT krm iPir jonI pwey ]

They stubborn-mindedly perform these rituals, and are consigned to reincarnation.

gur kY sbid Bgiq insqwrxu ]

Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, His devotees are saved.

Let us base all our reasoning on gurmat for the guru himself has told us:

ibnu sbdY quDuno koeI n jwxI ]

Without the Shabad, no one knows You

We can follow another person whom we consider to be highly spiritual, god loving as much as we like but until we ourselves come to understand the shabad guru with our own minds we will never achieve the goal.

SO do not worry yourself about how your food will somehow beceom "jooth" or impure if it comes into contact with someone else. Rather work on purifying your mind from within. ONes u reach that stage then these little efforts of special anti-jooth rehits will become meaningless because you will realize that God always knows how pure you are from within

siB sMjm rhy isAwxpw ]

All strict rituals are just clever contrivances.

myrw pRBu sBu ikCu jwxdw ]

My God knows everything.

You will no longer look at a person and say oh he is amritdhari so i can eat from same plate as him but he isnt so i must be careful not to let my food touch his. You will realize that ALL humans being are equal and within each person resides the same God, a God who is the definition of purity, a God who is Nirmal (without maal) so how will you be able to point at one person and label him as a potential contaminator and another as being acceptable and pure?

srY srIAiq krih bIcwru ]

Some think about religious rituals and regulations,

ibnu bUJy kYsy pwvih pwru ]

but without understanding, how can they cross over to the other side?

isdku kir isjdw mnu kir mKsUdu ]

Let sincere faith be your bowing in prayer, and let the conquest of your mind be your objective in life.

ijh iDir dyKw iqh iDir maujUdu ]1]

Wherever I look, there I see God's Presence.

Again, i look forward to your responses, and i sincerly hope this time around you will try and use gurbani to support your claims. I say this not to argue but rather that it will help you see for urself wut is true and wut is false, wut is in agreement with gurmat and wut is anti-gurmat. So rather than taking my word for it, or some mahapursh;s word for it, y not try and find out yourself what the Guru has to say about it?

Wish u the best in ur search for truth.

[Prem]

I am confused.

I understand the need for hygiene.

But not eating food simply because it is prepared by a non-Amritdhari?

It sounds to me like a brahmin saying that a shudra is impure and he cannot eat the food prepared by one 'lower' than him.

[Kharkoo4Life]

I am confused.

I understand the need for hygiene.

But not eating food simply because it is prepared by a non-Amritdhari?

It sounds to me like a brahmin saying that a shudra is impure and he cannot eat the food prepared by one 'lower' than him.

133671[/snapback]

U are exactly right!!!

These false practices have been deeply engrained in many sikhs minds because we as sikhs have been been lazy and not taking the time to understand gurbani ourselves. So we rely on others to tell us. But the guru has told us, why rely on others to learn? A sikh is not like a hindu that he must rely only on a brahmin to learn bout the scriptures. That is why the Guru shared the most valuable treasure, of shabad GUru, WITH ALL OF US. FOr each of us to read, understand and follow on our own.

But sadly, nearly 99.999% of sikhs dont do this.

isKI isiKAw gur vIcwir ]

Contemplating the Guru, I have been taught these teachings;

We learn only through contemplating the Guru. And contemplating doesnt mean simply staring at the saroop of maharaj ji, or jus reading the words over and over like a magical mantra, it entails a seroius attempt to read, reflect, discuss and try to understand every word of gurbani. Until a sikh does that he will be doomed to follow the same paths of blind faith and ignorance as was the case before guru nanak.

[Taksali Singh]

Kharkoo Jee...

If you truly believe in what you believe then thats fair enough, i cant and will not change your mentality. However, in future, have a little more respect for that "mere bani" as that "mere bani" is our "mere Guroo Saahib" and if that "mere bani" hasn't the power to change something from being impure to pure then we are all doomed!

We are IMPURE and its this "mere bani" that reforms us into becoming pure...

Think about it jee...

This is a major misconception amongst the masses that pani, and for that matter any food can become somethin greater than ordinary by mere sound of bani.

If the power of mwerely the sound of bani is so strong and able to sanctify the pani into something so powerful and spiritual as amrit, than the simple task of decontaminating mere earthly material filth should be no problem.

if mere sound current of bani is enuf to make water into amrit,

Once you have thought about the role this "mere bani" plays within your life, then I will try to answer your questions. Until then, i shall remain silent on this topic as i feel there could be a chance where i may act un-gursikh like.

May the Power, Love and Humility of GURBANI resound within the hearts of the children of the ONE, TRUE Lord...

inrml inrml inrml qyrI bwxI ]

[Kharkoo4Life]

Kharkoo Jee...

If you truly believe in what you believe then thats fair enough, i cant and will not change your mentality. However, in future, have a little more respect for that "mere bani" as that "mere bani" is our "mere Guroo Saahib" and if that "mere bani" hasn't the power to change something from being impure to pure then we are all doomed!

We are IMPURE and its this "mere bani" that reforms us into becoming pure...

Think about it jee...

This is a major misconception amongst the masses that pani, and for that matter any food can become somethin greater than ordinary by mere sound of bani.

If the power of mwerely the sound of bani is so strong and able to sanctify the pani into something so powerful and spiritual as amrit, than the simple task of decontaminating mere earthly material filth should be no problem.

if mere sound current of bani is enuf to make water into amrit,

Once you have thought about the role this "mere bani" plays within your life, then I will try to answer your questions. Until then, i shall remain silent on this topic as i feel there could be a chance where i may act un-gursikh like.

May the Power, Love and Humility of GURBANI resound within the hearts of the children of the ONE, TRUE Lord...

133673[/snapback]

Fateh,

bro you have misinterpreted my words. If i did not value gurbani y would i base all my discussion on gurbani? If i did not value or respect gurbani y woudl i ask you to do the same? You have grossly misquoted my words. Read by words again, at each point i made sure that i said " MERE SOUND OF BANI", not mere bani itself.

By this i meant that merely playing a tape of gurbani, or mrely listening to gurbani alone is of limited use. I do not doubt the importance of gurbani, for it is the foundation of a sikh, but what use is that foundation if we dont understand it. If we get a textbook for school course, simply listenin to someone else read it our aloud wont help us pass our exams. EVen only reading the book ourselves wont guarantee we pass the exams. Only way we will pass the exam is if we sit down, read the book AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND the concepts and subject matter within. So why should our appraoch with gurbani, something millions of times more valuable than any textbook be any different? Why should the time and effort we put to understanding gurbani be less than even an ordinary school textbook? But for the majority of Sikhs thats exactly the case. ANd that my friend is a shame.

pRB bwxI sbdu suBwiKAw ]

The Word of God's Bani, and His Shabad, are the best utterances.

gwvhu suxhu pVhu inq BweI gur pUrY qU rwiKAw ] rhwau ]

So constantly sing them, listen to them, and read them, O Siblings of Destiny, and the Perfect Guru shall save you.

The Guru tells us not only to sing it, and listen to it, but READ IT AS WELL. Because merely the sound of gurbani alone, by which i mean just hearing it, will not have the intended effect on the person as the guru sought.

gurmiq suin kCu igAwnu n aupijE psu ijau audru Brau ]

I listened to the Guru's Teachings, but spiritual wisdom did not well up within me; like a beast, I fill my belly

Why did this gyaan, wisdom not come even after listening to the bani? Cuz the person did not reflect on the word of the guru and understand it.

swD sMgiq gur Sbd sux gur aupdyS n irdy smHwly]

He, who even listening to the word of Guru in the holy congregation does not adopt the teachings of Guru in his heart.

iDRg jIvx bymuK byqwly ]òú]

Is opposed to Guru and the life of such an imbalanced person is opprobrious.

And in order to adopt something you have to understand it. Otherwise if we follow it without understanding it becomes a blind practice. I do not question your respect for the Guru Ji so why do u question mine? Read my post above, for it is not the bani i criticize but the lack of critical analysis and refelction on the contents of the bani by sikhs in general which i criticize. Multiple tiems in gurbani the guru has told us that merely seeking his darshan or listening to him is meaningless.

siqgur no sBu ko vyKdw jyqw jgqu sMswru ]

All the living beings of the world behold the True Guru.

ifTY mukiq n hoveI ijcru sbid n kry vIcwru ]

One is not liberated by merely seeing Him, unless one contemplates the Word of His Shabad.

We are lackin contemplation in today world of Sikhi. Why did the gurus spend so many years of their life travelling, talkin to people, discussing their beliefs, exchaning their views with people form around the world? IF mere sound of bani was enuff, all they had to do was send out people who had memorized the shabads n tell em to sing em over n over n that wud be enuff. But they didnt. THey went themselves and DICUSSED things. THey even set up kathavachakas during their time to do katha about the sikhi sidhaant.

So i remain baffled at how you can question the role of gurbani in my life. Every belief, every action, every thought i have in my life i try to base it on the gurbani so how do say that i do not respect bani? Ihope this clears up any doubt you have or misunderstanding about my relation with gurbani.

If you have the desire for a proper discussion, on a dicussion forum, then by all means please respond to my questions as i would be happy to hear your views. I hope you take this as a challenge to strenghten your own knowledge of sikhi rather than shy away based on some false assumtption bout my stance on gurbani.

Rab Rakha

[LostSoul]

Brother Kharkoo, I like your thinking, its just sad that more sikhs do not and will not open their minds up more. The problem is people would rather listen to some of these so called "Sants" than our own Guru. The Jooth issue was always confusing as a child (I have no Sikh families around me), and growing up I realized it makes very little sense. I want to ask where does the vegetables these Sikhs buy come from? At the market how many times does that sabhji we eat pass through a different persons hand? How bad of a person am I that me simply touching your plate has caused you to throw it all way, because now it has become "impure". If I were to touch your plate would you not eat it because I am impure, or because you are Pure? Am I beneath you? If your plate was made "jootha" as you said could we not just recite bani and make it "pure" again? Brother Taksali I think every post here has made sense just take the time to understand it :lol: .