Re-taking Amrit

[Guest A Singh.]

AK-47 Ji, I agreed with most of your posts. Taking Amrit at a Sanchar organised by one particular Jatha does not make you part of this Jatha. When I highlighted the example of the Manmat Amrit Sanchar, you wrote back:

I have never heard of the above happen and as such i would consider it to be a very strange and random event! MOST amrit sanchars areidentical in nature and the panj singhs are usually kamai vale singhs, so the above example doesnt really count.

Veer Ji, these events do happen. There is no need to mention specifics, but there are Amrit Sanchars where stainless steel Battas are used, in one particular country. There is a particular Jatha that believes in Simran rather than Panj Bania over Amrit. And there are many, many Amrit Sanchars that occur where the Panj are not Tyaar-Bar-Tyaar. The reason I wrote this situation is because you have said that we should "accept" the Amrit Sanchar since there is a Panj and Guru Sahib's Saroops present. I humbly disagree and believe that there can be Manmat Amrit Sanchars even when there is a Panj and Guru Sahib's Saroop. I am sure that if the situation I mentioned arised, you would tell the person in question to Pesh. This is a very extreme situation, but in the same way, others may believe it is acceptable to Pesh if Manmat on a smaller scale is done in the Amrit Sanchar.

Perhaps where you live, you have problems with people having "peer pressure" and being "bombarded" by claims that they should Pesh. I think in this case, you should take it up with the individuals themselves, because this seems almost like bullying which is wrong. It is easy to talk about the problem on the internet; perhaps you could take practical steps to stop these bully-type people in enforcing their views by discussing these issues with them. Already Guru Sahib has done Kirpa in that many anti-Panthic organisations who hold Amrit Sanchars are now unable to or have few people attracted to them.

Finally Veer Ji, you mentioned Naam DriRh as "some special naam exchnage ceremony". Please do not be disrespectful to the Gurmat Jugti for doing Simran or it's manifestation in the Abhilakee. Bhai Mani Singh Ji himself has mentioned this technique and as have other Puratan sources, a point which appears to have been overlooked. That is all I have to say on this topic. In my previous post, the passage I quoted from Kulbir Singh sums up everything about the importance of Naam DriRh and Simran very well.

[N30S1NGH]

I have been seen quite a tamasha on this thread, but i have kept it quiet. But at this time, i feel to respond to people who follow black and white sikhi ie- naam dridh is more authentic than other techniques/ is best technique ever. Sometimes i feel we got people who follow yogi personal traits too in our panth because how they act, brag about techniques/technalities of meditation but choose to ignore the concept of "Gurparsad".

- Sant baba nand singh ji got gurparsad(grace of guru maharaj) by doing "sargun upasana of sri guru nanak dev nirankar" in his naam simran.

- Sant baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale got gurparsad by doing immense jaap of japji sahib patt, ajapa/jap which lead him to avastha - Gurmukh rom rom har dhavaie ||

- Bhagat puran singh ji got gurparsad by doing immense seva of vahiguroo's creation and simran of that creation.

sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai gobind bin nahee ko-ee

There are many techniques in Guru Ghar to get to Vahiguroo, no technique is better than each other, or NO Technique is more Gurmat than others, out of all - biggest technique- prem/ bairaag.

Jin Prem Kio Tin Hai Prab Paio ||

Lots of sikhs these days who do naam jap of vahiguroo, they contemplate on creator but some how happen to forget "that creator also resides in his creation" - see this post for more info : http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15937&hl=

They are in biggest dobta out of all, they show dvaish towards others, they are just like some pandits who is busy doing pooja but besides them there is someone needs help and dying. They are hypocrites without any doubt.

Going back to Naam now, there are many techniques how to do jaap of Shabad given to you by mahapursh in form of panj pyares, most of puratan samparda's give you shabad/Gurmantar in amrit sanchar but give you Naam jugti in a separate session alone - mahapursh and jagiaso.

Also may i add it's not proper to say, i got naam amrit from others or mahapursh in form of panj pyares, panj pyares instill naam in you, you get shabad from panj pyares. Naam is inside us day we were in the womb. Naam is everywhere, exist in his creation:

Gurbani says:

Naunidh amrit prabh ka naam, dehi mein iskaa bisraam (GGS : 292, Sukhmani, 23.1).

Anyway here are some of the techniques(jugti) given by mahapursh in the past, they are diffferent. Remember there is no such thing as one technique is better than others, people on this forum should get out from this "bamal bussa" and "dubta" black and white sikhs trying to propagate. Yes certain people find certain techniques comfortabale but they can't say one technique is superior than others.

- Technique given used and given by mahapursh- sant 108 baba sunder singh ji bhindranwale (fetched from gyani thakur singh ji japji sahib katha translations tapes):

Ajapa jap

Jap is of three types:

1. Vachak- Recitten with tongue and can be heard by others.

2: Upas: Recitten with tongue also but less audible.

3. Manas- Meditation of Vahiguroo with mind..meditation through thought process.

First stage of gursikh is Vachak. Gyani Ji gave example of how siriman 108 sant baba sunder singh ji maharaj bhindranwaley used to do japji sahib first in one hour, then do second japji sahib in half an hour, then do third japji sahib in 15 minuites, then do fourth japji sahib in 10 minutes, then fifth time do japji sahib in 5 minutes.

- Techniques given by sant baba isher singh ji rara sahib waley (sub branch of bhai dya singh samparda)

Jap(meditation) is also done by:

1. Baikri Bani- When one recites naam with javan(tongue), hout(lips), khaieyal(thoughts) that is called Baikari Bani.

2. Madhma Bani- When one recites naam in Kant(throat) without moving lips...just with the thoughts is called Madhma Bani.

3. Pasanti Bani- When one recites naam in hirda(heart).

4. Para Bani- When one recites naam in Nabhi(Navel) without moving tongue and with the thoughts. In this stage vahiguroo naam gets infused in rom rom of the body. Meditation goes in automatic mode. There is no need for concentration.

Gurmukh Rom Rom Har Dhavaie ||

After 4th stage, one gets to very high stage. Where one can hear(jap-resonance,dhuni) with their surati in pretty much everything in this creation ie- walls, birds, leafs, animals, human being, even from realms (bhramands).

Dharat Patal Akash Hai Meri Jindaeriye

Sab Har Har Naam Dhavaiya Ram ||

2nd technique:

Va Va Da Abhyaas Nabhi Ch Karo

(Doing Simran of Va Va on Nabhi/Navel )

Hi Hi Di Awaaz Hiradaie Ch

(Doing Simran of hi hi on the heart)

Gu Gu Kant ch Karo

(Doing Simran Gu on the kant/near throat)

And

Ru Ru Di Awaaz Mastaak mai Ratan Kartaie Hoye Birti Kou Nirgun Atma Mein Lin Kar Duo

(Doing Simran Ru Ru on the Mastaak/third eye)

So its a cycle - Va ( on Nabhi) Hi(on heart) Gu (on Kant) Ru(On Mastak/third eye).

Thats one cycle....I dont know...this cycle or stage explained in the book is the first intial stage to the simran or second last stage in simran....

3rd technique:

This is also included in Soraj Parkash Granth.

According to a prasang(divan) on chapter of mata ajeeto kaur reaching enlightment. Mata ajeto kaur was under guidance of siri guroo gobind singh where she was taught all the "YOG SADHNA/Shabad Surat Marg where chakras are used", when mata ji did yog sadhna, when her birthi(dhyaan) reached - Trikurti/3rd eye..she started seeing the future e.g. the besiegement of Sri Anandpur Sahib, leaving the kila etc and the shaheedia of the char sahibjadey. After seeing this in a dream she asked Guru Gobind Singh jee whether this was true, Guru Sahib confirmed this.

Mata jee then told guru jee that she could not see all this pain happen and would rather die/ leave for Sachkand and asked permission to leave her body. Guru Sahib jee granted her permission and subsequently she did ishnaan, a Sukhmani Sahib da Paath and then left her body by reciting the mantar and with that mantar taking her prana on top and realising it via bhram randar nari( subtle vein) through dasam dwara.

4th technique:

First concentrate on Sargun saroop of Vahiguroo while reciting shabad ie- Gur Ki Morat Man mein dhyaan Guru Ka shabad mantar man maan

then after mind becomes subtle, that shabad will automatically take you upper realms and that shabad will infuse in your surat

Techniques used and given by sant jawala singh ji harkhowaley (sub branch of bhai dya singh samparda)

Naam Simran Jagutiya by Sant Baba Jawala Singh Harkhowaley

1st technique

First do simran with the help of bakhri bani(recitation of tongue) and focus on trikurti

( between the eye brows) focus so hard and meditate so hard that you are exhausted consequently you will start meditating automatically on throat chakra with Madhma Bani (thought provoked automatic recitation) then focus so hard on madhma bani that it gets exhausted. Again consequently meditation will start in the heart and continue to the Nabhi (Navel). In the navel, guru’s jap awakens the kundalani in the navel. By doing this.,tenth door(dasva dwara) opens. By doing this technique your meditation process never stops and you are experience doesn’t break.

2nd technique.

Meditation using Vahiguroo Mantra...

Meditate with repeating Vahiguroo with your breath. When you inhale, take Vahi with your breath and take it all the way to Nabhi crossing your heart. Then take Gu from your heart to Ru from your trikurt by doing this... Tenth door (dasama dwara) opens..

Next stages (When trikurti opens) you see some light, first you see red then you see white and then you see the light that is so strong that makes thousands of suns and moons look dim but it doesn’t hurt your eyes ..It’s a feeling of calmness and rain of Amrit(Nectar).

That is followed with sweet(celestial ) sounds which are called Panj Shabad (Anhad Shabad)…focus on that shabad but you have to transcend the point that yogi gets to because that point is still bound by creations and its only when your ego dissolves that you achieved what you meant to be achieving..

Naad means sound (dhuni) and there are two types of sound

Aahat and Anhat

1. Aahat caused by two things colliding .This breaks down into thee parts 1. Breath = vocal sound 2. Sound which comes from instruments 3. Combinations of both and that’s where it collides.

2. Anhat: Heaven celestial sounds.

3rd technique:

Sant Jagjit Singh Herkhowal here is narrating the instructions given to his father on how to perform Naam Abhyaas by Baba Jwaalaa Singh Herkhowal.

Another technique by harkhowaley mahapursh

They are;

Preparations:

1) First recite Japuji Sahib

2) Then perform ardas requesting permission to recite naam and to be devoid of distractions

3) A mat should be laid on the floor, covered by a woolen cloth and then a white sheet

4) A pitcher of water is put to one side

5) The surroundings are adorned with incense and flowers

6) Sit facing the rising sun (east) in sidhaasana

7) Each hand should be placed on the knees in vairaag mudra

8) Keep spine erect, head high

9) To initially control the senses close left eye and with the right focus on the tip of your nose

10) Then recite mool mantar until you have strong concentration

11) Then recite gurmantar - first with baikri bani, then so only you can hear, then in the throat, then heart then navel chakra at belly button

12) This stage will take time but will be achieved with practice

13) once there, fix attention at triputi (between eyebrows)

14) He then explains trikuti and then way to dasam duar

15) The recitation of gurmantar should proceed with 'vaa' in stomach chakra, 'hi' in heart, 'guu' in throat and 'ruu' in triputi.

16) Four types of rasna - baikari (aloud), madama (in throat), pachyanti (voice in hriday/heart), and para bani (nabi).

17) Ru meaning light brings light to triputi (which is above the trikuti)

18) Therefore placing each of the gurmantar in each of the chkras in ascending order

19) explanation is then given of the nature of the experience that arises out of this practice, the final opening of saharakamal chakra and the experience of advaita.

20) There is further guidance on seasonal changes that need to be made, and issues of daily practice.

4th technique by harkhowaley mahapursh:

Baba jawala singh ji answered:

Hey pyaray gurmukho, the shabad, which is the emanation and form of guruji’s heart, that shabad is brahm. Get absorbed in that shabad and you will find that you no longer exist and that is the way that you will get muktee. Guruji has used the following lines in gurbani to explain this……

1)sabad gur peera, gaher gambeera, bin shabadai jag baugaanang.

2)Satgur bachan, bachan hai satgur paadhur mukat janavago

3)Etc etc (more bani was said to reinforce the point)

It is for this reason that gurmat is focusing on god through shabad ( gurmat hai shabad brahm dee upaashna) because shabad has 3 forms according to wise mahapurakhs:

1)asthool: when your eyes gaze on a granth and you read those letters out loud

2)misrat: when one’s birti (focus/attention) becomes attuned to the shabad, the shabad is both suksham and asthool because the mind is made of the (tatta da sato ansh)….the sat (virtue/true/purest) form of the qualities.

3)Sukham= sookham (astral/spiritual)

When the shabad abhyaas (meditation on the shabad) surpasses the consciousness(surat) of the mind, and gets absorbed in the paar baani (the celestial emanations of the primal sound)..(this is also called, naabhi di baani (sounds of the naval chakra). That baani has the ability to take the jeev’s surti (the consciousness of the being) to the pinnacle point of brahm (the point from which creation was started).

For this reason, you should all focus on the shabad.

5th technique: Viraat Upsana

Recite vahiguroo through your mind and at the same time visualize first start with people/places you dislike - see light in them then move on bringin the whole creation (parkirti) inside and try to feel as if every inch of this universe is reciting vahiguroo's name - leafs, waterfall, valley, tree's , wind.. as if you are seeing light's everything.

this way our mind which is dualistic see two (see god separate from creation) changes into non-dualistic mode which is see oneness (god's light in every being).

Techniques by sant baba aya singh ji hoti mardan (sub branch of bhai dya singh samparda). Sant aiya singh ji was murshid of sant jawala singh ji. Note this technique is given to sangat where there is not only sikhsangat but everyone- hindu and muslim:

refererence: The Radiance of complete journey to Akaal Purkh

chapter- Sant baba Aiya Singh Hoti Mardan giving sermons to Sangat.

Diffferent ways of Meditation.

1. Meditating by focusing eyesight on rising sun. It's done in winter. Hindus call it trianghlar concentration.

2. Shugal Mayyat or Mansuri..some hindus call it dead body's posture it is done by lying on ground on back with mind upwards, body completely loose and eye sight focused on behind the brows.

3. Breathing control in which attention is focused on third mole. It's equal to the first one and is done via padam asan(cross legged position)

4. Attention is focused inside as well as outside on the fae of Guru(mentor).

In this way, one enjoys the unique fruits of spiritual life and hidden secrets are uncovered.

5. Shugal Ishnan Jat- In this, attention is focued on kalava shanovari due to this practice the mediator gets absorbed into his own self.

6. Shugal Aina (Means of Mirror)- It involves eye sight focussing on eye pupil in the reflection. This way eye-pupils over turn inwardly and get's to white spot or third mole.

7. Half awakened position- By this eyes are constantly kept open to avoid sleep. Therefore even though in sleep one remains half awake.

8. Inner form and intellect are concentrated upon white spot.

9. Eye- sight is focussed on the nose-tip then gradually moves backward to the nose-root. Going inward one has to enter realm of subtility. Yogis call it Chacri Mudra. It is also mentioned in Gita. Meditation phase contains three types:

1. Meditation upon Guru's phsyical form.

2. By concentrating on the place of the spirit in the body one feels light like a lamp. This is subtle medtiation.

3. The comes Guru's light form above the path of God's and ancestors and stays with the Sikh(learner).

This way seeker merges into God. Shamas Tarbez says, "I become you and you become me and my life so that no one distinguish between you and me". Perfect meditation disolves the trinity of worship, worshipper and object of worship. Worshipper and the object of worship become one. God or Guru's beautiful face only can be seen with sacred eyes, look at him with excitement and asthetic sense just as muslims look up the moon of Id, It's is not every eye's business to have a glance of True Guru's light form. Only fortunate ones attain to this status. But human being instead of listening to spiritual voice is given to hear outer souns. Alas ! you are bounded by phsyical chains and do not listen to holy voice of mercyful god.

Love: Love is the divine Law. It will win where reason fails

God is love and love is God

I think this is enough for the sangata, there are soo many techniques in guru ghar, no technique is higher than other or more gurmatiya than others, what is highest of all and common within all is "prem" towards Vahiguroo which leads to "Gurparsad".

IkOngkar Satnaam Kartapurkh Nirbhau Nirvair Akaal Morat Ajooni Saihbhang Gurparsad

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Agreement to Namastang Sahib. The approaches so far have been very cookie-cutter aka. If you did not get Naam this way, then you need to get Pesh.

Take the founder of the Akhand Keertani Jatha. Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh Ji himself was very confused about what Naam was after his Amrit Sanchar due to a person blabbing about it before the Sanchar. He became very versed in Gurbani, but felt that there was a Word that could focus his mind on the Almighty. He knew that Waheguru was preferred in the Sikh Panth, so he sought out to find out from Guru Sahib. He made a plan: If Guru Sahib would tell him a Word that he could meditate on, he would accept it as Naam and recite. However, if he was given a word or phrase that pointed to Waheguru (such as Gur, Guru, etc.), he would accept Waheguru as Naam.

So Bhai Sahib went to Gurudwara and approached Guru Sahib. At that moment, Guru Sahib was having Chaur Sahib done by an invisible force and the Hukam included the phrase "Gur Vah", after which a light was emitted which clearly stated Waheguru. Everywhere Bhai Sahib turned, that light of Waheguru Was shown. The Granthi Singh and his brother came in later and confirmed that nobody was in the Darbar Sahib when this happened and nobody was doing Chaur Sahib sewa.

So the GURU enlightened Bhai Sahib as to what Naam was. What is required is faith:

"I did not know," 'he writes, in his Autobiography,' "the different methods of contemplating the Divine Name. I had not learnt the various techniques of this spiritual practice from anyone. All I was anxious about was to have a glimpse of the Beloved. It was this burning passion to have a vision of His Light that impelled and roused my wavering thoughts and feelings to the sublime heights and set me on the straight Path to God." (Autobiography: p 57)

[N30S1NGH]

So the GURU enlightened Bhai Sahib as to what Naam was. What is required is faith:

"I did not know," 'he writes, in his Autobiography,' "the different methods of contemplating the Divine Name. I had not learnt the various techniques of this spiritual practice from anyone. All I was anxious about was to have a glimpse of the Beloved. It was this burning passion to have a vision of His Light that impelled and roused my wavering thoughts and feelings to the sublime heights and set me on the straight Path to God." (Autobiography: p 57)

Vah ji Vah...premia msbhai sahib ..dil kush hoo gaye par kaie ..vah ji vah

[Guest A Singh.]

Veer Namstang Ji, thankyou for that informative post. I think you made a very good point we have missed out that Pyaar is the most important single factor.

One of the techniques you gave was referenced to Sooraj Parkash Granth, and the narrative appears to be have been an elaboration on one of the stories from Sau Sakhi which I mentioned in my previous post. If we put this particular technique aside and examine the many others you mentioned. My only question to you, is advocation by various Sant/Baba individuals aside, are there any references to these in various Puratan sources?

It is easy to condemn the idea of having a Gurmat Jugti as "cookie-cutter"-esque but it would not explain why Puratan sources generally tend to point towards one particular Vidhi for Simran. Perhaps I am wrong, you can enlighten me.

No one is stopping you closing one eye, facing the east, lying down etc, or even using other Mantars (as I am sure with Pyaar they would still have fruit) but whether or not we will all be as lucky as Bhai Randhir Singh Ji for Akal Purakh to personally give us Naam (and wave the Chaur Sahib with no one present), is another matter!

[N30S1NGH]

One of the techniques you gave was referenced to Sooraj Parkash Granth, and the narrative appears to be have been an elaboration on one of the stories from Sau Sakhi which I mentioned in my previous post. If we put this particular technique aside and examine the many others you mentioned. My only question to you, is advocation by various Sant/Baba individuals aside, are there any references to these in various Puratan sources?

Most of these techniques i mentioned above in my post have been going on- seena-basina oral spiritual traditions of nirmaley samparda's. You have to remember, most of puratan samparda's does not "ONLY" rely on rehitnamas, granths, they also pay full equal reverence and significance to spiritual oral traditions running "seena-basina" from sri guru gobind singh ji's time within the lineage(order).

I know spiritual oral traditions in the lineage may be less authentic than rehitnamas, granths for you..For me, some stuff in rehitnamas, puratan granths also lack authencity. At the end of day, you used rehitnamas, granths to back up you your techniques, i used spiritual oral traditions to back up techniques used in my post...each to their own i suppose..i say all is good, none is invalid. I am not too sure if you feel the same way.

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer namstang ji, for someone who writes alot you seem to continually be devoid of much substance. If one were to analyse your post in detail, then one would find it has some good details, but also alot of incorrect matter and further many inconsistancies.

It leaves one wondering where to start.....

Veer ms514 - Bhai sahib was confused with naam. That is why he has written so many books on it to show others what naam is, and to eradicate this confusion in others. Today many are still confused with naam. It is quite surprising considering the Naam is the fundamental concept of sikhism. But if one was to follow the logic of your post then one would have a long path just to find the seed of sikhi. It is alot more practical and easier to just go to your Panj pyares.

Generally from this thread. I get the impression that some people think it is to do with jathas. I sincerely hope it is not. I have rarely come across anyway, who just wants to be part of a jatha. because anyone can go to keertan. But I do come across alot of people young and old, who wish they could improve their jeevans and be more abyassi. That has nothing to do with jathas, it is natural and fundamental thing which many sikhs want.

If people from taksal or nanaksar get naam dhrir, they do because they wish to experience naam on a deeper level. This is no reflection on thier current state, because if they are content then fine, but if not then they should have an opportnuity to try something else.

This does not mean they stop doing seva in them jathas. infact it means they often do more. For example, there are many elders and youth in Uk from taksal, nanaksar, missionary colleges, and many other jathas who get pesh, and continue to do seva with there jathas.

This is good because naam dhrirta will spread. It is not the fault of AKJ that they hold naam as important and something which should be emphasised. Gurbani fundamentally puts naam is everything. As more people get pesh, naam spreads, and hopefully in my life I will see the day when every Amrit sanchaar in the Panth re-invigorates Naam. It is the ripple effect, as more people jaap it, more realise.

We can be all emotional and say what about this person, who went here, and that person, they were all jeevan wale aswell. I am sure they were, but they found naam in the own time. Surely the ideal is finding it from the Panj, when you actually intially go for it.

Sikhi is a practical religion. Lets face facts - not every Amritdhari is naam abyassi, so if we go around thinking there is no problem, clearly there is a big problem. Our Gurdwaras in general are devoid of naam, which is why they do not attract youth and niether inspire them. The panth is in a pitiful state. Every jathebandie including damdami taksal and AKJ are weak in themselves. Everyday the Panth is losing is jeevan wale Gursikhs.

But at the same time as sticking up for naam. I am also saying that no jatha has monoploy on Naam. AKJ is good, but can always get better. Just as every other group who does the seva of creating Gursikhs, we all can do better. Those youth who are getting pesh, need to realise that only getting pesh, is not the answer, but practicing in Naam via strong Amrit velas, training the mind to recognise the 5 viokaars and analysing their actions and after effects on the inds, and putting a pathway in place towards Sat, Sontokh, Daya, Dharam is the answer.

In conclusion, it is good, that people are realising that being satisfied in out pitiful state of our jeevans is wrong, and listening to bani, and striving for a more focussed jeevan on Naam is the way.

There should be no-one who should be jealous if people are doing that. Instead we should be happy that there is a hunger of Naam in the Panth.

Halemi Raaj is going to be built on Naam. it is not going to built on wishy washy posts, that are long but have little substance. If it was that easy, then we would already have halemi raaj.

waheguru ji kekhalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

[N30S1NGH]

Pyare jio, veer namstang ji, for someone who writes alot you seem to continually be devoid of much substance. If one were to analyse your post in detail, then one would find it has some good details, but also alot of incorrect matter and further many inconsistancies.

You can anyalise my post and point out incorrect matter but i want to let you know above jugtiya are not only for one brand of sikhs. Mahapursh and their jugtiya for everybody, they give updesh each person accordingly by looking at each avastha, by looking at the back ground they come from just like how sri guru nanak dev ji gave atamik updesh in his japji sahib to sidhas by using their own's mat logic- see- japji sahib atamik translations that on Gurbani section on this forum.

On a side note: most of techniques i have posted given by mahapursh are aligned with advait gurmat sidhant may be not last one, but again hoti mardan wale mahapursh were known as krishan maharaj by hindus and pagamvar by pathans.

Just like rain pours everywhere, does not discriminate with others, just like how sikh of true guru should be- in words of baba jagjit singh ji harkhowaley. Gurmat is anadi, Guru sahib wisdom parkash cannot be hold by your soo called one brand of sikhi, you can try as much you like to put guru sahib wisdom parkash in box but parkash does not bound to one jatha, one dharam.

Gurmat is anadi: (enjoy this audio short clip)

http://www.khalis.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/...0is%20anadi.mp3

Also jagjit singh, it's good to come out from your comfortable zones and smell the coffee, whole panth does need to get naam dridh, you can try as much harder you want to convince sangat this is it but the truth is - there are many techniques(jugtiya) exist than naam dridh which can help jagiaso reach Vahiguroo. You got living examples of mahapursh who used other techniques standing side by side with bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji state. If you wish to argue bhai sahib bhai randhir singh ji discourses on naam was truth or Gurmat and everything else by other mahapursh were false, anti gurmat, manmat, anti panthic then just say so. I am dying to see, hear what over zealous "chelas" of mahatama has to say..you can let it out ..all for once..supress feelings are not good for you.

Now frankly speaking, do you know why God created diversity in his world???

so that irakhloo, katarvadi people's mindset can get challenged and hopefully, they can rise above from their insecurity zones they live in and sense unity within diversity....!

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, veer ji, I do wish you would get away from "cut and paste " sikhi. You seem to very impressed by what you write, but sorry because I tend to be far more analytical and practical. I do not believe everything I read, and generally stand by what I personally experience. Just because something sounds good, it does not make it the truth. Only if it corresponds with Gurbani is it the truth.

I wish you the best of luck with your mahapurshs. I do not question them and have neither ever felt any urge to make any comment on them. I do not judge them, but I just choose to base my sikhi on the Gurbani I read, and not any personality, be it any of your mahapurshes or Bhai Randhir Singh. Like I said I do not question your mahapurshs, and neither do I accept that they even said everything you say, they said. You are addicted to dropping names when presenting any argument. If you mentioned gurbani tuks, I would give you more credence.

I also wish you stop taking the mickey out of damdami taksal in your mails. Maybe other youth have not picked up on it, but I have. You are disrespectful to the true nature of that jatha.

So often when we have debated, you mention words like "katarvadi, black and white, anti-panthic, and so forth". I am not sure why you do this. If you honestly think I will retaliate to this, then you are mistaken, because this things just make me take you less seriously.

I could have taken you post apart point by point, but honestly I have done that so many times before, do you really want me.

As far as this topic is concened I said everything I wished to say in my first post which is below. But for you who may be confused let me summarise it.

1. No sikh should every be afraid of going before their Guru in the form of the Panj Pyares with any problem.

2. naam can only be given by the Panj.

3. there is only one Amrit.

4. If a person over time does not keep up his/her jeevan, then there should be no stigma in them going before the Panj to rejuvenate their jeevan. It is no reflection on their original peshi.

5. According to bani, to live a life devoid of Naam is the biggest sin.

This is all I have said. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything else is your own baggage which you are trying to attach to me.

My original post is below.

waheguru ji kekhalsa waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, "Nanak Amrit ek hai duja nahi koe".

Lets be clear there is only one Amrit. That is given by the panj pyares.

The concept of naam varies from different sikh circles. Some see naam as fundamental part of sikh based on attempting to jaap it 24/7. Others see naam as paath and reading gurbani. Others see naam as nature, some see it as seva.

I personally believe it to be the first thing. As something fundamental to sikhi, based on attempting to jaap it 24/7.

Some people have a stigma about going pesh. Some believe it as questioning your amrit. This is wrong. Any person should be able to go to the Panj pyares for anything at anytime. If you have a dispute, you can get the panj to resolve it. If you have done a kurehit, then you get pesh in front of the panj. If you have a child, then you get pesh to give the child choola. In the same way, if you feel lacking in naam, then you go to Panj who give you Naam. It is NOT taking Amrit again. It is just getting Naam from the Panj Pyares. Even those who have got Naam from the panj before, but their Amrit vela has collapsed and feel devoid of naam should get it again, and start to rebuild the spiritual life.

There is nothing wrong with getting pesh. But according to Gurbani, there is alot wrong with not getting up at amrit vela and being devoid of Naam.

The important thing is getting pesh is not the answer. If you get naam, and do not jaap it afterwards, then you will be back at square one. The important thing is to drench your life in naam. So do seva, simran, sangat, and lead your minds to a more spiritual avastha.

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

[N30S1NGH]

Pyare jio, veer ji, I do wish you would get away from "cut and paste " sikhi. You seem to very impressed by what you write, but sorry because I tend to be far more analytical and practical. I do not believe everything I read, and generally stand by what I personally experience. Just because something sounds good, it does not make it the truth. Only if it corresponds with Gurbani is it the truth.

I also rely more on personal expereinces with techniques. But again if you are being soo analytical then where do you start? for me, with dubta you cannot start any technique..start with open mind. Those techniques are not invalid but have worked for people. We are not replica of each other. We all have different state and everything. Technique you or jatha use may not be helpful to me, Technique i use or samparda use may not be helpful to you.

All i wanted from this thread, is acknowledgement that yes there are techniques different from naam dridh exist and equally valid.

I wish you the best of luck with your mahapurshs. I do not question them and have neither ever felt any urge to make any comment on them. I do not judge them, but I just choose to base my sikhi on the Gurbani I read, and not any personality, be it any of your mahapurshes or Bhai Randhir Singh. Like I said I do not question your mahapurshs, and neither do I accept that they even said everything you say, they said. You are addicted to dropping names when presenting any argument. If you mentioned gurbani tuks, I would give you more credence.

I respect your views. If we go by gurbani then there is lot of mentioning yog sadhna as well, whether in a positive light or negative light that depends on the context of the shabad. eg:

khaychar bhoochar tulsee maalaa gur parsaadee paa-i-aa.

Control of the breath and positioning of the tongue, focusing at the third eye and wearing malas of tulsi beads, are all obtained through Guru`s Grace.

Naam Dayv prays, this is the supreme essence of reality; the True Guru has inspired this realization. ||3||3||

naamaa paranvai param tat hai satgur ho-ay lakhaa-i-aa. ||

I will post more if you wish.?

I also wish you stop taking the mickey out of damdami taksal in your mails. Maybe other youth have not picked up on it, but I have. You are disrespectful to the true nature of that jatha.

Please quote me where i have taken mickey out of damdami taksal. That's quite a bold accustaion against me.

I could have taken you post apart point by point, but honestly I have done that so many times before, do you really want me.

Please Please do take my post apart point by point. Start from techniques given above, also no need to misquote baba aya singh hoti mardan discourse which may not be aligned with gurmat while you do that. I already told you the context when that discourse was given. It was given to hindus, muslims and others, sikh could have benefit from it too if you read carefully some of the points.

As far as this topic is concened I said everything I wished to say in my first post which is below. But for you who may be confused let me summarise it.

1. No sikh should every be afraid of going before their Guru in the form of the Panj Pyares with any problem.

2. naam can only be given by the Panj.

3. there is only one Amrit.

4. If a person over time does not keep up his/her jeevan, then there should be no stigma in them going before the Panj to rejuvenate their jeevan. It is no reflection on their original peshi.

5. According to bani, to live a life devoid of Naam is the biggest sin.

1. Agreed.

2. Agreed. However, naam jugtiya can be given by mahapursh. First naam is given by only panj pyares. BUT Naam simran jugti can be given by one of pyares who is consider jathedar muki within panj pyares. Traditionally Bhai Dya Singh Ji is known as mukhi of panj pyares, rest of the pyares made him jathedar out of respect, most of decisions were made by him after consulting with his fellow beloved. Whoever is mukhi have full authority to give naam jugtiya regardless if other ppyares were present or not. actually took part in amrit sanchars giving naam jugti(discourses) while.. Read a whole chapter of bhagti atamik updesh to sikhs by bhai dya singh ji in Gurpartap Soraj parkash granth I beilve (if i m not mistaken).

3. Yes- "Nanak Amrit ek hai duja nahi koe".

4. Agreed.

5. Agreed.

This is all I have said. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything else is your own baggage which you are trying to attach to me.

I am not trying to attach anything to you. You take my long post personally. Especially when i made that black/white comment. It was general comment then personal one.