Bf/gf Relationships Within Sangat

[japmans]

maybe you need to ask a question

if you love your Guru so much...are you not already fully satisfied? is that not ENOUGH?

Shouldn't it be? the way you are describing the intense love for Guruji that you have, shouldn't that be more than satisfactory?

Now... you're not a young guy, according to your profile. You're old enough to decide whether this is a marriage situation or not. this response would be much different if you were 16 17 or 18 or 19 or what not...

but you're 26... you're probably thinking of marriage shortly, and so this makes sense to you.

in this case, PTBS is the most-right... just... be careful... alotta alotta ALOTTTAAA gursikhs lose alot of grip on Guruji when you compromise it with an attachment to the opposite gender.... even if your true intention was to grow in sikhi together, it's not easy to control.. it takes a RIDICULOUS amount of will power, A WHOOOOOOOOOLE LOTTTT more than you originally think it takes.

and it's not worth it... it seriously isn't worth it, cuz if you die tomorrow, are you sure your thoughts are gonna be with Guruji? or with this significant other?

[Manchester_Sikhi]

I agree to some extent with what you are saying japmans.

If I was fully satisfied with love for the Guru would I be here on this planet?

Forgive me lack of knoweldge, but I've always thought that to be and to say someone is 100% happy and satisfied as human begins in the Gurus world would make us something more then humans.

As humans, DESIRE is something we try hard to control...desire not in the sexual sense, but in a very broad sense...

We do our simran and we control our feelings.

So to be content and fully happy in life is something I hope to attain one day...but maybe that day will be the day when I merge once and for all with the shabd.

Also, didnt the GuruJis say we MUST NOT lead the life of an ascetic?

We must lead a householders life...viz. essentially no sexual relations before marrage.

We must be part of the world...fulfil our duties as such, but also be outside of the world spirtually.

The point of the thread was that I do want to marry this person, the parents will agree and be happy..but what do you wiser people think of it in terms in the GGSJ?

How is attachment to another sex an issue?

If you are married, you are attached arent you? Your parents, I'm sure cared and loved each other...so that IS an attachment...but i'm sure they remained true to Sikhi...if the bond is there between two humans and they love each other, that is GOOD.

But its the skill of knowing in life that that love is maya...that counts...I KNOW there is only one true love...and thats for the Guru...nothing else.

In an ideal world...thats all i'd want.

But most of our folks want us married off...so marrage is something we have to consider, just as the Gurus also were married...they loved their wifes...but they had the disattchment from the world which is what made them who they are they...

So, you're reply seems to suggest that is not worth getting married and just focussing on GuruJi...

A VERY nobel thought and something we should all be doing I guess.

But...then you can argue God made the creation...God made man and woman, God made man and women to procreate (within marrage)....therefore why is it wrong to make the choice to get married to someone....KNOWING the world is Maya...

However, its HIS world...His creation...it is something we must love and must have respect for.

What do others thing? JAPMANS raised an interesting point there....ideally we should all put our efforts into GuruJi and not into a relationship.

But how are we able to justify getting married (which itself implies a relationship....and therefore LOVE for two human beings)?

I guess one could also extend that argument onto the love for family...because it is almost the same thing...we all love our mothers and fathers...but how many of us cry and are sad at the death of a loved one...isnt that attachment to the world...we should be happy that person is gone to the lord and is in a better place, but our attachment to them makes us sad...

The same goes for anything in this world...our money, our cars, our PCs, our mobiles...things get stolen..we feel sad and upset...its the SAME thing isnt it...attachment...

So in that sense EVERYTHING we see in this physical world takes us away from GuruJi, not just relationships...

I guess the key is being IN the world...acting our part in the world...respecting other BUT ALSO loving God...i dont think its a case of being an ascetic...we have jobs, work to do..lives to live...family to take care off...but we must remain in the Gurus circle in all our activities in life...

What do you think?

[msjskb]

I'm sorry i really havent been thru all the posts....but i am of the opinion that the way the young amritdharis of today are going is not ideal.

I seen friends around me having these relationships. I have seen these go wrong and some end in marriage. Occasionally out of caste (which is a good thing) but sometimes the parents not agreeing.

I think we are all responsible as amritdharis. We represent alot. We are role models for the younger brothers and sisters.

What example is it for a young boy growing up to see his brother or his friends brother who is an Amritdhari, with a girlfriend?

What example is it to a young impressionalble lad? his friends will all be trying to impress girls and he sees an amritdhari with a g/f......so what does he do....he goes to kirtan programmes and spends his time trying to impress girls.

I got alot to say and wont bore u all....i know most wont agree with me....but i am strongly against amritdharis having relationships now...its become fashionable....we are all trying to be new age.

[Golee Maro]

Unfortunately i disagree to some extent.

What i am about to say is not what i agree with but how things are...

IN an ideal perfect world everyone would not have lustful thoughts or have bf gf relationships etc etc. In an ideal world, if a guy liked a girl, he wud tell his olds, get them to approach her olds and so on...

HOWEVER, i believe from what i have seen... bf gf relationships happen and will continue to, even within sangat. Thats how it is ajj kal. BUT i believe that Gursikhs with a "position" in society have a certain obligation to others who they inspire. My example : a very popular young keertani i know is going out (hush - hush) with a girl i know. The relationship - i know for a fact - entails usual bf gf stuff. And it disgusts me ... more because this guy (and indeed the girl too) are quite inspirational to a lot of youths. And if the youths found out about it (which they normally do neway) then i know it will dishearten them ... and thats something ive fallen victim to in my own life, so i know how it feels.

Yes, bf gf relationships are allowed as long as the intentions are 100% honourable (ok, 99.9999%). But i believe people who are known or seen as GurSikhs who do a lot of seva or are "internationally known" for their keertan or katha and what not, have an obligation to sangat to make certain sacrifices to flawlessly spread the word of the Guru and not allow any room for scandal to tarnish Guru Jee.

theres been many examples in the past of people who are given so much respect and maan, only to later on be xposed with proof and banished from Sikhi.

Has to be noted though that every member who classes themself in sangat has an obligation to the rest of the sangat to keep doing sangat with izzatt and not to bring shame upon Sikhi.

Just my opinions. Probably said some wrong things which may offend some so i do sincerely apologise for that. please do correct me when i am wrong.

[singhini1984]

i agree with you comletely....

no affence intended to Manchester Sikhi....i realise you on verge of marrige and if it all seems perfect then get married because no matter how beutiful u make it sound without those all important laaven...it means nothing....i am sorry if my words seem harsh....however if you are confused wheather you are doing the rite thing then ask for hukam from maharaj....but remember you have to obey no matter what the outcome

as gursikhs we should have the same pyar for all....and that should only change for that one person when maharaj gives us hukam....and that hukam is in the laavan....

please dont change sikhi to suit yoour own situations.....maharaj has given every gursikh the beautiful power to see love in everyone and have love for everyone....dont confuse that love....if it meant to be with anyone then have faith in maharaj....he can do anything....bhenji u sed that we rely to much on destiny and karam....but u dont realise everything within his power....u cud try gettin out of the way of cars and maharaj will pull u rite back to the middle of the road...becus it is his beautiful hukam.....just have faith in him bhenj....if it meant to be with this person then maharaj himself will do ur anand karaj...and if not then that is also his beautiful hukam too...its karam no matter how much we tryand deny it....u say there is no forever marrige anymore becus of divorce....but there is and always will be....it is called anand karaj....kaljug will make this whole world corupt but bani, gurus hukam will always stay pure...u just have to have faith..."tera bhana meetha lageh"

u say that if you marry someone then you have to at least have love for them...otherwise it false love....i dont beleve that can exist....because as gursikhs u have love for all.....and when u marry som1 u see that as maharajs hukam....and his hukam will always be truely loved by his gursikhs no matter who that person is....

u sed that to be 100% satisfied and happy as human beings would mean we are something more than humans.....however isnt that what we all aspire to be....something more than humans...gursikhs....

u say that we wouldnt be here on this world if we were happy and content and at one with vaheguroo...however if that is not our aim then we will continue to come back here 4 eternity....our gurus came to this very earth to show us it is possible......our aim is to find vaheguroo that is the promise we made...lets not stray from that just becus the target seems to far...

a religions essence is god,vaheguro, allah....akaal purah....his hukam is everything....have faith

bhenji all this may not apply to you...and im sorry if i have affended you at all...please forgive me

i apologise if i have affended anyone....

vaheguru ji kaa khalsa

vaheguru ji kee fateh

[singhni84]

Singhini1984...nice name and nice views too

I agree with the last few posts. Most of the youth today get mixed up in these kinds of relationships and there are always 101 ways to justify them. But the truth is that they're wrong, always. A Sikh shouldn't get involved in this kind of nonsense. Can you imagine any great Gursikh from the past having a gf/bf? Even if there's no physical contact etc, it's still not appropriate to have these kinds of feelings for a person you're not even married to.

Despite how pure the intentions are and how genuine your drive towards Sikhi, what usually happens is that your Sikhi goes nowhere because the relationship becomes a barrier. And in the end, most of these relationships don't even work out so not only do you lose the person you thought was "The One", but in the process, you lose what little amount of Sikhi you had to begin with.

Before you're married, it's not really appropriate to have that much free communication. It's definitely not appropriate to be "in love" before marriage. The proper way to proceed is this: have your parents make the arrangements. You should limit how much you talk to the person directly yourself. If you care for the person AND for your Sikhi, then back away until you're married or else (from what I've seen), you'll probably end up losing one or the other...either your Sikhi or the person anyways.

[japmans]

manchester veerji

to clarify, my post was in respec to decidingwhat your priorities are RIGHT NOW... i don't mean to live the life of an ascetic as you interpreted...

your Guru is more important, there's no ifs ands buts about it. that part can't even be attempted to be justified... no one can ever come up with a sufficient enough arguement that Guruji is less important than person A, at any given time.

as i said, if your priorities right now are to find a wife, then the attachment that you have to your wife is JUSTIFIED, in a sense, by guru maharaaj's lavaaan.... i really liked singhni1984's reply.....

anywhoo, it's ultimately your decision. this is what i think though.

[proud_to_be_singhni]

I've skimmed thru the last few posts by bhenji and paaji's and this is what i have to offer in reply to some of your answers not pro relations etc before marriage.

That is Exactly how i felt when i first took amrit last vaisakhi ....that we need to look at all as brothers and viceversa.

However when you meet someone and not just....Ohhh meee goddd...he/she's soo lovely...but i am talking about you basically are ignoring each other and avaoiding eye contact..because there is some feeling there and you don't know what it is.....(sound soppy?...yeps...yeuk....lol) anyway, but somehow Guru ji keeps making you meet in different situations and places you have to end up working together?!!!

You start thinking hey...im not even thinking about anything and here you are again and again making me feel awkward.....theres something there..?!....still you carry on without approaching one another>>>>WHILST on the other side your parents are looking for an arranged marriage for you which are all inappropriate...why?

1. backgrounds dont match, education differences, big character differences >>>all Very Important factors you need to think about before commiting..

THEN theres the other 'whas all this about' guy. Both of you see each other, decide to say Gurfateh regularly and know that maharaj ji is hinting bigtime for you guys to get together...you are Exactly the same, share all same interest, u basically 'click' in everything...Basis for a sound marriage...? Yes. Not the above ^^ where you dont have any idea and leaving it too faith.(isnt this faith?!)..All Good...if thats what you like me not saying its at allll wrong...kool. But for some people that doesnt work out neither...ive seen.

Its a personal choice and matters of age and whether your ready to Be married come into play here.....

Paaji this is Your choice and only You can decide whats right for You...and if it will help Your sikhi and not scratch it one bit (in other words You are mature enuf to handle situations that occur in a realtionship)

Me and My Choice are getting married in the summer, unitl then im busy with uni and so is he..we hardly meet...and the Internet (godbless) is our communication channel...mobiles..dont do em... dont even ask my last bill! lolllll....But i know if i had not followed my heart i wouldnt be as happy as i am now..vaheguroooo. Not to say i wasnt happy before (b4 u guys start)...Guru jis love was major....but happy to be married Happily! (lollll.....make any sense?)...

We are here to learn paaji....if you feel its right im sure you are wiser to make that decision....

Take care and good luck! :TH:

woowwww @ ..think thas the longest post ive ever written .....respect to all you guys who write so much so often....

[Manchester_Sikhi]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who replied on this topic. Its good to get both sides of the picture, which you have certainly given me.

Thanks!

I think I will progress as I intended to, as I always intended to I guess, and with Gurus Kirpa, everything will be fine...if not, then I will obey and see what happens.

Thanks again guys and girls for you points of view!!!!

:T:

[buddasingh]

I think the terms “arranged” and “love” marriage are dated and today are rather meaningless. There are many situations which lead to marriage. Here are two examples:

Love Marriage example – disguised as Arranged

Parents set their children up based on someone's particular; financial security, height, skin complexion, educational status, citizenship, income earning ability etc. Today many of these marriages are about brokering and leverage to see what you can get on the market. They are not about suitability of families and the individuals to grow in their love for waheguru, as it may have been in the past. This marriage is not one that is based on any type of sikhi principles.

Arranged Marriage example – misunderstood for Love

A “man and woman”, not “boy and girl” in their mid to late 20s come to know of one another, perhaps amongst sangat, perhaps not. Keep in mind a century ago a 30 year old may have been finding someone for their 15 year old son or daughter give or take a few years. Today the people getting married are often closer to the age of parents than of children from a century ago.

Some of those who are getting married today would have much greater understanding of the world than say the parents in the previous example above. They may have been offered the hand of someone “rich”, someone “educated”, someone “beautiful”, someone “of status”, but refused because it was all superficial.

Then they come to know someone who seems to have a passion for sikhi but even more importantly seems to live and conduct their lives by sikhi principles. They may not be “in love” with this person, but they see a potential to grow immensely in their love for waheguru with the support of this person as a life partner. They come to know this person as a family would know. They do not "date". They "get to know" in the most dignified manner as their background check. This is an arranged marriage.

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Either view can be correct depending on the circumstances. Despite the above here are a few facts/opinions.

The fact is most of those who go out in their 20’s act like kids, not responsible adults. The fact is most punjabis (especially boys) don’t mature till much later compared to other cultures. The fact is that most of those who go out are less than fully responsible. HOWEVER this does not mean that all of those who choose their own life partner are this way.

Unfortunately it is also a fact that parents broker deals on a market for their children based on rather superficial factors. HOWEVER, this does not mean that all parents who choose life partners for their children are this way.