Heaven And Hell

[randip singh]

Sorry Randip Ji glossing over most of the shabad and picking out one aspect is not very good is it?

147280[/snapback]

Like I stated nothing is picked out….just highlighted your misinterpretation.

Raag Gauree Maalwaa, Fifth Mehl:

<<One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

<<Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||

Chant the name of the Lord as the hereafter path is terrifying and treacherous. What exactly is the hereafter? It is certainly not the Here – and – Now as you keep going on about. The hereafter is after death, why would that be terrifying if you have no Naam ?

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Hereafter could mean anything. Hereafter from this point in time, is the future. Either way it is the here and now.

<<Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.

<<Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||

Selfless service of Sant Mahapursh………….but alas that is another issue we clash upon!

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Selfless service in this case would be for my Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, and in serving Guruji I learn to control fear and and my fear of death. So when death comes I shall not fear it, bcause the legacy I have left behind is a good one of service and good conduct.

<<You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

<<You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

Here is shown the futility of rituals and ego over Naam Simran as stated in the first lines. You are all going to be subject ot heaven and hell and reincarnate over and over again. The fact that Guru Ji adds the bit about reincarnation means Guru Ji is not talking about the here and now but of the future.

147280[/snapback]

What Guruji is talking about is fearful little Hindu’s who make offerings to statues and do various other things on the promise of getting into heaven. The fear factor is what Guruji is talking about, a bit like the fear factor and promise some suicide bombers use in respect of entering “eternal” or is that not so eternal paradise/heavan.

<<The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

Why the realms of Shiva, Brahma and Indra? If there is only the here and now why these realms? These realms exist because souls have done good karm and have achieved the level of staying here, it temporarly.

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These places are NOT permanent, so therefore if they are not permanent they are like our existence now, not permanent. You beginning to get the picture. Guruji is dismissing all these eternal paradises as non-permanent, in otherwords they do not exist but are created in the here and now.

<<Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||

<<As the Guru has taught me, so have I spoken.

<<Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved. ||4||1||158||

147280[/snapback]

This talks about people making the same mistakes over and over again. Not choosing Gods way, but the way of the 5 vices.

[randip singh]

yes. if ony you would actually understand gurbani, instead of trying to make it say what you believe

147282[/snapback]

No Amarjeet, what you mean is if only I blindly followed everyone one of your interpretations :e:

[Bundha]

My God! You must stop taking those magic mushrooms yaar.

This is quite unbelievable, Randip Ji it is obvious we are not going to see eye to eye on ANOTHER subject so this will be my last entry, but the way you interpret the tuks................ I am flabbergasted!!!!

<< Hereafter could mean anything. Hereafter from this point in time, is the future. Either way it is the here and now>>

If you want to interpret the HEREAFTER as here and now, well I shake my head in puzzlement.

<< These places are NOT permanent, so therefore if they are not permanent they are like our existence now, not permanent. You beginning to get the picture. Guruji is dismissing all these eternal paradises as non-permanent, in otherwords they do not exist but are created in the here and now. >>

When Guru Ji says these states are not permanent Guru Ji is saying our stay in these places is not permanent, we stay there according to our karms that we have kumied here and then we move on, the only permanent place of a soul to get to is Satch Khand where one merges in AkaalPurkh and has eternal bliss.

I am at work and between other duties I am adding these entries, so I do not have a lot of time to read all the shabads you have posted.

[randip singh]

My God! You must stop taking those magic mushrooms yaar.

This is quite unbelievable, Randip Ji it is obvious we are not going to see eye to eye on ANOTHER subject so this will be my last entry,  but the way you interpret the tuks................  I am flabbergasted!!!!

<< Hereafter could mean anything. Hereafter from this point in time, is the future. Either way it is the here and now>>

If you want to interpret the HEREAFTER as here and now, well I shake my head in puzzlement.

<< These places are NOT permanent, so therefore if they are not permanent they are like our existence now, not permanent. You beginning to get the picture. Guruji is dismissing all these eternal paradises as non-permanent, in otherwords they do not exist but are created in the here and now. >>

When Guru Ji says these states are not permanent Guru Ji is saying our stay in these places is not permanent, we stay there according to our karms that we have kumied here and then we move on, the only permanent place of a soul to get to is Satch Khand where one merges in AkaalPurkh and has eternal bliss.

I am at work and between other duties I am adding these entries, so I do not have a lot of time to read all the shabads you have posted.

147293[/snapback]

Sorry I don't do drugs.

Sit down and take a deep breath! OK?

Right! Is not heaven meant to be abode of eternal bliss? YES?

Then if Guruji says they are non-permanent then how can be abodes of eternal bliss or heaven. Here is a clue, eternal means forever.

Like I said I agree there maybe different plains of existence or dimensions, but Sikhism does not have a concept of heaven.

Bottom Line:

mukat baikunth saaDh kee sangat jan paa-i-o har kaa Dhaam. ||1||

Liberation and heaven are found in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; his humble servant finds the home of the Lord. ||1||

[Tera]

This is just my opinion. You should find out different stuff but sometimes we get a bit too stuck into it... Only with bhagte will such answers to your questions come

Make good deeds the soil, and let the Word of the Shabad be the seed; irrigate it continually with the water of Truth.

Become such a farmer, and faith will sprout. This brings knowledge of heaven and hell, you fool! ||1||

(Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Siree Raag, ang 24)

No one is saved by mere talk and speech, nor by reading loads of books.

The body does not obtain purity without loving devotion to the Lord.

O Nanak, never forget the Naam; the Guru shall unite us with the Creator

(Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Siree Raag, ang 59)

[Bundha]

Last but one, last reply.

Here is where you are confused. Heaven as described by Guru Nanak dev Ji has many levels - dharam khand, sarm khand, gian khand but the highest is Satch khand - satch khand vasay nirnkaar this is permanent. Akalpurkh sits in Satchkhand with his beautiful nose and teeth and long hair and his rays reach every part of his manifest world.

Maybe it is the termanology that is confusing, maybe we should not call the lower khands heaven, maybe we should use the word heaven just for Satch Khand and all others just call them khands, BUT the fact remains these places exist.

there is a shabad by Bhagat Karbir Ji (I will try to find it) he states "what face will you go and show DharamRaj when in this life you have not done good karm or done any simran, then the JamDhoots beat you. " Where else are Dhoots going to beat you but in hell.

<<mukat baikunth saaDh kee sangat jan paa-i-o har kaa Dhaam. ||1||

Liberation and heaven are found in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; his humble servant finds the home of the Lord. ||1|| >>

In the company of the holy you will always be in bliss, there is no doubt about that, this is heaven, agreed, BUT it cannot follow that there is no place in the afterlife.

The way you are interpreting this is like saying " Drugs make me high" and then go on to say that ONLY drugs make you high. This is not the case, Kirtan and Gurbani also make me high. In this case Guru Ji is saying that in the company of the sangat it is like Heaven, ie it is so beautiful and bliss, they do not say that his is the only heaven.

[Bundha]

This is like saying that the company of Sangat is such sweetness and then go on to interpret this as saying that the only sweetness in the world in Sangat. But this is not true, Sangat is sweetness but so is Gurbani, so is my Guru, so is Panth Khalsa...........................catch my drift?

[amarjeet_singh_1699]

yes. if ony you would actually understand gurbani, instead of trying to make it say what you believe

147282[/snapback]

No Amarjeet, what you mean is if only I blindly followed everyone one of your interpretations :e:

147292[/snapback]

no, thats not what i mean otherwise i wouldve said it. duh. not too bright are you. no wonder you cant understand the idea of heaven and hell. poor man.

[tableji]

OMGOSH RANDEEP SINGH YOU ARE SO RIGHT.ive read everysingle one uf posts on this topic..and well...i must say i couldnt have put it better myself.

i feel that i am quite an objective person and from reading all the arguments randip singhs seem the most sensible.

i especialy agree with this

"Why bother with that when I can got to the source...my Guru...i.e. Bani!"

[randip singh]

yes. if ony you would actually understand gurbani, instead of trying to make it say what you believe

147282[/snapback]

No Amarjeet, what you mean is if only I blindly followed everyone one of your interpretations :e:

147292[/snapback]

no, thats not what i mean otherwise i wouldve said it. duh. not too bright are you. no wonder you cant understand the idea of heaven and hell. poor man.

147301[/snapback]

Because the idea of heaven and Hell is an illusion. There is tukh after tukh that states the idiotic lengths that people go to get to heaven and avoiding hell. Making sacrifices, making offerings, following rituals...............yet all around them is a living hell and they do nothing to allieviate the hellish condition of their fellow man.

Inside they are living in hell because they are consumed by Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar. The Guru's describe the persuit of getting to heaven and pure Egotism, and if you cannot understand that basic concept of Sikhi, I feel deeply sorry for you. I left these childish concepts of heaven and hell behind long time ago when the meaning of Bani was explained to me by some learned people.