Heaven And Hell

[randip singh]

Last but one, last reply.

Here is where you are confused. Heaven as described by Guru Nanak dev Ji has many levels - dharam khand, sarm khand, gian khand but the highest is Satch khand - satch khand vasay nirnkaar this is permanent. Akalpurkh sits in Satchkhand with his beautiful nose and teeth and long hair and his rays reach every part of his manifest world.

Maybe it is the termanology that is confusing, maybe we should not call the lower khands heaven, maybe we should use the word heaven just for Satch Khand and all others just call them khands, BUT the fact remains these places exist.

there is a shabad by Bhagat Karbir Ji (I will try to find it) he states "what face will you go and show DharamRaj when in this life you have not done good karm or done any simran, then the JamDhoots beat you. "  Where else are Dhoots going to beat you but in hell.

<<mukat baikunth saaDh kee sangat jan paa-i-o har kaa Dhaam. ||1||

Liberation and heaven are found in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; his humble servant finds the home of the Lord. ||1||  >>

In the company of the holy you will always be in bliss, there is no doubt about that, this is heaven, agreed, BUT it cannot follow that there is no place in the afterlife.

The way you are interpreting this is like saying " Drugs make me high" and then go on to say that ONLY drugs make you high. This is not the case, Kirtan and Gurbani also make me high. In this case Guru Ji is saying that in the company of the sangat it is like Heaven, ie it is so beautiful and bliss, they do not say that his is the only heaven.

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Look Bandha...you are well known on Sikh-history.com and we have been through this before.

You want to believe in the Bogeyman (jamdoot) and the toothfairy, you carry on if it makes you happy.

To me the biggest Jamdhoot is that of being a slave to the five vices. One cannot be in a more HELLish place than that.

[randip singh]

OMGOSH RANDEEP SINGH YOU ARE SO RIGHT.ive read everysingle one uf posts on this topic..and well...i must say i couldnt have put it better myself.

i feel that i am quite an objective person and from reading all the arguments randip singhs seem the most sensible.

i especialy agree with this

"Why bother with that when I can got to the source...my Guru...i.e. Bani!"

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Thankyou for your kind words, but I am merely passing on what I have learned from much more enlightened and more intelligent people than me. :TH:

[tableji]

i did agree with what u have said on this post bt i have just read ur other posts on this forum and am deeply disapointed.i also dont agree with the way you have called hell and heaven "childish concepts"

i understand u feel that eating meat is not a problem.dont worry this isnt going off topic. clearly u dont rele understand the concepts of hell and heaven, even though u seem to,because by performing acts such as eating meat mahraj says one will be consigned to hell(not the so called "childish concept" of hell which u claim to have left along time ago, but the hell in which one is consumed by the panj chor).

so hell, rather than being a childish concepts is a living reality for all of us if you think about it.

"I left these childish concepts of heaven and hell behind long time ago when the meaning of Bani was explained to me by some learned people."

it is interesting how you think you have managed to understand these concepts but still not managed to grasp the more simple concepts spelled out in gurugranthsahib ji such as eating meat.

remember: one who THINKS he knows something is dangerous.

[Bundha]

Nice to know that I am well known……………….. I am but a humble servant.

Watch out Tableji has turned on you yaar !

BTW, Randip Ji you live in Birmingham, do you know a Harjit singh Sembhi?

[Bundha]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes in Bchittar Natak :

CHAUPAI

When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas/Jhamdhoots.

Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotent.7.

Clearly these dhaitas and jhamdhoots are not the five vices you talk about but actual life forms. If you want to deny this then that is your choice.

[superaju]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes in Bchittar Natak :

CHAUPAI

When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas/Jhamdhoots.

Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotent.7.

Clearly these dhaitas and jhamdhoots are not the five vices you talk about but actual life forms. If you want to deny this then that is your choice.

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why u dont write what Guru ji say...Becuase i think Guru Gobind Singh ji have written in Gurmuki language...and u can write in Roon language min Chaupi then you translate in english...PLEASE

I hope u will dont mind...

Bhul Chuk Maaf...

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa,

Waheguru ji ki Fathe!

[Bundha]

CHAUPAI

When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas.

Jab pahile ham sristtee banaaoo|| Daoot rache dust dukhdaaoo||

Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

Te bhuj bal bavre hvai gae|| Poojat Param Purakh raih gae||6||

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

Te ham tamak(i) tanak mo khaape|| Tin koo thaur devtaa thaape||

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

Te bhoo bal(i) poojaa urjhaae|| aapan hoo Parmesar kahaae||7||

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

Mahaadev achutt kahnyo|| Bisan aap hoo ko thahiraayo||

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

Brahmaa aap Paarbrahm bakhaanaa|| Prabh ko Prabhoo na kinhoon jaanaa||8||

Hope this helps.

If anyone wants to know what Guru Sahib Ji thinks of Mohommad/Koran/Vedas/purans then read Bachittar Natak.

The above chaupai goes on to say that Mohommad was created and all he did was become raja of Arabia and got all the rajay to be circumcised and set himself up as a demigod, Reading the Koran or Purans leads to nothing .

[singh_khalsa]

randip singh, please dont use gurbani to follow your views, look at the shabahds with an open mind and see what guru ji is telling us. bundu and randip singh are infact BOTH right, in a sense. three types of hell:

away from waheguru

8.4 million joon

a real terrible hell where punishments are carried out

this earth can be like heaven or hell, but there as the reality of heavens and hells in dharam khand.

pwpIAw no n dyeI iQru rhix cuix nrk Goir cwilAnu ]

paapeeaa no n dhaeee thhir rehan chun narak ghor chaalian ||

He does not give the sinners any stability or place of rest; He consigns them to the depths of hell.

hir Bgqw no dyie ipAwru kir AMgu insqwirAnu ]19]

har bhagathaa no dhaee piaar kar a(n)g nisathaarian ||19||

The Lord blesses His devotees with His Love; He sides with them and saves them. ||19||

keI koit nrk surg invwsI ]

kee kott narak surag nivaasee ||

Many millions dwell in heaven and hell.

sMq kY dUKin nrk mih pwie ]

sa(n)th kai dhookhan narak mehi paae ||

Slandering the Saints, one falls into hell.

koaU nrk koaU surg bMCwvq ]

kooo narak kooo surag ba(n)shhaavath ||

Some have gone to hell, and some yearn for paradise.

jamdhoots carry out punishments:

ijn hir hir hir rsu nwmu n pwieAw qy BwghIx jm pwis ]

jin har har har ras naam n paaeiaa thae bhaageheen jam paas ||

Those who have not obtained the Sublime Essence of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har, are most unfortunate; they are led away by the Messenger of Death.

ijau ijau clih cuBY duKu pwvih jmkwlu shih isir fMfw hy ]2]

jio jio chalehi chubhai dhukh paavehi jamakaal sehehi sir dda(n)ddaa hae ||2||

The more they walk away, the deeper it pierces them, and the more they suffer in pain, until finally, the Messenger of Death smashes his club against their heads. ||2||

AND THIS SHABDH EVEN SHOWS US HOW HELL IS A REALITY:

Bgq vfw rwjw jnk hY gurmuK mwXw ivc audwsI]

bhagath vaddaa raajaa janak hai guramukh maayaa vich oudhaasee||

King Janak was a great saint who amidst maya remained indifferent to it.

dyv lok noN cilAw gx gMDrb sBw suKvwsI]

dhaev lok no(n) chaliaa gan ga(n)dhharab sabhaa sukhavaasee||

Along with gans and gandharvs (calestial musicians) he went to the abode of the gods.

jmpur gieAw pukwr sux ivllwvn jI nrk invwsI]

jamapur gaeiaa pukaar sun vilalaavan jee narak nivaasee||

From there, he, hearing the cries of inhabitants of hell, went to them.

Drmrwie no AwiKEnu sBnw dI kr bMd KlwsI]

dhharamaraae no aakhioun sabhanaa dhee kar ba(n)dh khalaasee||

He asked the god of death, Dharamrai, to relieve all their suffering.

kry bynqI Drmrwie hau syvk Twkur AibnwsI]

karae baenathee dhharamaraae ho saevak t(h)aakur abinaasee||

Hearing this, the god of death told him he was a mere servant of the eternal Lord (and without His orders he could not liberate them).

gihxy DirAnu iek nwauN pwpW nwl krY inrjwsI]

gehinae dhharian eik naaou(n) paapaa(n) naal karai nirajaasee||

Janak offered a part of his devotion and remembrance of the name of the Lord.

pwsMg pwp n pujnI gurmuK nwauN Aqul n qulwsI]

paasa(n)g paap n pujanee guramukh naaou(n) athul n thulaasee||

All the sins of hell were found not equal even to the counterweight of balance.

nrkhuM Cuty jIAw jMq ktI glhu islk jmPwsI]

narakahu(n) shhuttae jeeaa ja(n)th kattee galahu silak jamafaasee||

In fact no balance can weigh the fruits of recitation and remembrance of the Lords name by the gurmukh.

mukiq jugiq nwvYN kI dwsI ]õ]

mukath jugath naavai(n) kee dhaasee ||a||

All the creatures got liberated from hell and the noose of death was cut. Liberation and the technique of attaining it are the servants of the name of the Lord.

[singh_khalsa]

yes randip singh ji, there are shabdhs about how heaven and hell can be on this earth, but there many shabdhs telling us the reality of hell. do not slander the guru by dismissing this! this would be a great sin! i've seen both types of shbds and i know they are both correct, gurbani is 100% truth.

dont pick a part of gurbani, look at the whole of it!

[randip singh]

i did agree with what u have said on this post bt i have just read ur other posts on this forum and am deeply disapointed.i also dont agree with the way you have called hell and heaven "childish concepts"

i understand u feel that eating meat is not a problem.dont worry this isnt going off topic. clearly u dont rele understand the concepts of hell and heaven, even though u seem to,because by performing acts such as eating meat mahraj says one will be consigned to hell(not the so called "childish concept" of hell which u claim to have left along time ago, but the hell in which one is consumed by the panj chor).

so hell, rather than being a childish concepts is a living reality for all of us if you think about it.

"I left these childish concepts of heaven and hell behind long time ago when the meaning of Bani was explained to me by some learned people."

it is interesting how you think you have managed to understand these concepts but still not managed to grasp the more simple concepts spelled out in gurugranthsahib ji such as eating meat.

remember: one who THINKS he knows something is dangerous.

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As you said the meat eating this is seperate thing and as nothing to do with Sikhism. You wish turn the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji into some sort of Sharia type law on dietry requirements then by all means carry on. I do not see the Bani in such shallow terms, but as a deep spiritual guide. I've been down the path of non-veg, veg and none has helped me on a spiritual quest. The only thing thta will help me is to keep a good balance between mind and body and control of the 5 vices.

Childish concepts of the bogeyman and heaven and hell are used to frighten people to think if they wont do certain rituals or eat certain foods they will go to hell.

The reality of it is that we are judged by our deeds and actions. Now if you think the eating of meat is a bad deed then in your mind you will go to or dwell in hell if you ate it. I do not think so so in my mind I will not go to or dwell in hell.