Heaven And Hell

[randip singh]

It is wonderful to see so many ideas and assumptions about what will happen to us after we die, where our soul will go, what it will be subjected to etc. but putting aside our own limited naive understanding of death and guesswork about what will happend to our souls after our bodily death have we ever tried to listen what the guru tell us?

Guru Nanak has told us himself that the fate of the soul after the body dies is unknown. We can philosphize, analyze, discuss this as much as we want but only God Himself knows the true aftermath.

iek dJih iek dbIAih ieknw kuqy Kwih ]

Some are cremated, and some are buried; some are eaten by dogs.

ieik pwxI ivic austIAih ieik BI iPir hsix pwih ]

Some are thrown into water, while others are thrown into wells.

nwnk eyv n jwpeI ikQY jwie smwih ]2]

O Nanak, it is not known, where they go and into what they merge.

The whole concept of a post death heaven or hell is based on the premise that God will judge our actions AFTER we die.  That we live a life engaged in whatever actions we want to and only after it is all over will our actions be reviewed and judged by God.  Again, while the above theory seems very appealing and creative in nature it breaks down in realm of spirituality/Truth. We accept God as being the Creator of the entire universe and furthermore being present in every tiny corner of that Creation.

PrIdw Kwlku Klk mih Klk vsY rb mwih ]

Fareed, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.

It is our own naiveness that we assume God may not be watchin our every move, or that even tho record of our actions is being kept it will not be analyzed and reviewed until much much later. This is far from the truth. The truth is that God is everywhere:

logw Brim n BUlhu BweI ]

O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

Kwilku Klk Klk mih Kwilku pUir rihE sRb TWeI ]1] rhwau ]

The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places.

And more importantly He is watching over our every move:

Awpy krqw kir kir vyKY ]

The Creator Himself creates the creation, and watches over it.

So that being said, if God is omnipresent why would He have to rely on some sort of sub-judiciary agent (e.g. dharam raaj) at a later date to take account of our actions? God is not dependent on others to review our actions. He does it Himself, and is doing it as we speak! True judgement is not confined to some single day but is occuring every moment of our lives. That is the whole point behind the saying "we reap what we sow". We dont do good now so that we can get something after our bodily death, or something many thousands of years from now on some special chosen day, we do good now so we can feel good now, and help those around us feel good now as well. And god rewards us for our good actions now!

Thus i find it very hard to see any reason laced logic which could support the argument that one has to wait till after death for judgment day to arrive.

As a final note, not to discard everythin that was stated in the previous posts, i think at times many of us, regardless of how much love and respect we feel towards our faith, we tend to get stuck on literal interpretation of the messages of gurbani.  We need to rise above this and realize that Sikhi does not follow the naive beliefs of other faiths, but instead is based on a completely new and vibrant philosophy -- gurmat!

147734[/snapback]

excellent post yet again! Your the man!

Excellent point KDS too!

[singh_khalsa]

no need to ask the hell and heeaven believers why we belive that, its there in gurbani. there are many references above.

[randip singh]

no need to ask the hell and heeaven believers why we belive that, its there in gurbani. there are many references above.

147786[/snapback]

One point someone made to me about this debate was you have to keep in mind the Guru were trying to explain complex concepts to people who were essentially illiterate country bumpkins, so in order to so they did so using concepts they understood.

It is like the Sufi story of the Melons. Do you know that one?

[singh_khalsa]

no gurshabadh is eternal and universal, it wouldnt use (what you consider) FALSE concepts again and again just to explain something to a paticular people. it's so obvious there's heaven. guruji was giving those people the correct way to reach heaven, and not through there useless ways.

cMigAweIAw buirAweIAw vwcY Drmu hdUir ]

cha(n)giaaeeaa buriaaeeaa vaachai dhharam hadhoor ||

Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma.

krmI Awpo AwpxI ky nyVY ky dUir ]

karamee aapo aapanee kae naerrai kae dhoor ||

According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.

ijnI nwmu iDAwieAw gey mskiq Gwil ]

jinee naam dhhiaaeiaa geae masakath ghaal ||

Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows

nwnk qy muK aujly kyqI CutI nwil ]1]

naanak thae mukh oujalae kaethee shhuttee naal ||1||

-O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them! ||1||

[Bundha]

<<< What happens after death is like what I stated on a another post, we are matter once we die we are still matter.........in other words matter is neither created or destroyed, it just changes form...... >>>

Randip Saab Ji, you seem to skirt around this whole issue time and time again.

What happens after you die ?????

All this stuff about dying and matter turning from one state to another is to do with our physical body, we have all done GCSE chemistry. WHAT ABOUT THE SOUL?

What state is the soul in at the moment? Gas, liquid or solid ?? The soul is none of these states and will not change once we die, because it is amar, so what happens to that if it is not judged and sent to a heaven or hell?

[crayzy]

i agree, all these khands are actual realms, dharamraja, jamdoot etc are real.

here are your quotes

<<Pauree, Fifth Mehl:

They take the noose in their hands, and go out at night to strangle others, but God knows everything, O mortal.

They spy on other men's women, concealed in their hiding places.

They break into well-protected places, and revel in sweet wine.

But they shall come to regret their actions - they create their own karma.

Azraa-eel, the Angel of Death, shall crush them like sesame seeds in the oil-press. ||27||>>

<<Tilang, Fifth Mehl, First House:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.

The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1||

O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.

The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||

Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.

So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||

Your benefactors, presents, companions, courts, lands and homes

- when Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death seizes you, what good will these be to you then? ||3||

The Pure Lord God knows your condition.

O Nanak, recite your prayer to the holy people. ||4||1||>>

They are literally hundreds of Gurbani quotes I could give you, but these following two I think I think are particularly relevant to your opinion.

mMnY suriq hovY min buiD ]

mMnY sgl Bvx kI suiD ]

mMnY muih cotw nw Kwie ]

mMnY jm kY swiQ n jwie ]

AYsw nwmu inrMjnu hoie ]

jy ko mMin jwxY min koie ]13]

The faithful have intuitive awareness and intelligence.

The faithful know about all worlds and realms.

The faithful shall never be struck across the face.

The faithful do not have to go with the Messenger of Death.

Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.

Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||13||

>>

sorry I dunno how to make the Gurmukhi show up.

gauVI cyqI mhlw 1 ]

Avir pMc hm eyk jnw ikau rwKau Gr bwru mnw ]

mwrih lUtih nIq nIq iksu AwgY krI pukwr jnw ]1]

sRI rwm nwmw aucru mnw ]

AwgY jm dlu ibKmu Gnw ]1] rhwau ]

auswir mVolI rwKY duAwrw BIqir bYTI sw Dnw ]

AMimRq kyl kry inq kwmix Avir lutyin su pMc jnw ]2]

Fwih mVolI lUitAw dyhurw sw Dn pkVI eyk jnw ]

jm fMfw gil sMglu piVAw Bwig gey sy pMc jnw ]3]

kwmix loVY suienw rupw imqR luVyin su KwDwqw ]

nwnk pwp kry iqn kwrix jwsI jmpuir bwDwqw ]4]2]14]

Gauree Chaytee, First Mehl:

There are five of them, but I am all alone. How can I protect my hearth and home, O my mind?

They are beating and plundering me over and over again; unto whom can I complain? ||1||

Chant the Name of the Supreme Lord, O my mind.

Otherwise, in the world hereafter, you will have to face the awesome and cruel army of Death. ||1||Pause||

God has erected the temple of the body; He has placed the nine doors, and the soul-bride sits within.

She enjoys the sweet play again and again, while the five demons are plundering her. ||2||

In this way, the temple is being demolished; the body is being plundered, and the soul-bride, left all alone, is captured.

Death strikes her down with his rod, the shackles are placed around her neck, and now the five have left. ||3||

The wife yearns for gold and silver, and her friends, the senses, yearn for good food.

O Nanak, she commits sins for their sake; she shall go, bound and gagged, to the City of Death. ||4||2||14||>>

This pretty musch explicitly differentiates between jamdoot and panj chor. No one is telling you to be afriad of them - why are you who does nitnem and is a Gursikh afraid of them. Sikhs are not meant to *aim* for a heaven or hell, our aim is not to be good or bad, as Sikhs our aim is to understand the Hukam and abide by it, keeping in mind that whatever God wills is good.

Listen to your learned friends by all means, but my Guru begs to differ with your opinion.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Randip Saab Ji, you seem to skirt around this whole issue time and time again.

What happens after you die ?????

All this stuff about dying and matter turning from one state to another is to do with our physical body, we have all done GCSE chemistry. WHAT ABOUT THE SOUL?

What state is the soul in at the moment?  Gas, liquid or solid ??  The soul is none of these states and will not change once we die, because it is amar, so what happens to that if it is not judged and sent to a heaven or hell?

147926[/snapback]

Dear Bundha Ji,

Have you ever considered that the reason Randip Singh ji has not given u a definite answer about what happens to the soul after we die is because maybe he has no shame in admitting that he does not know. In fact, Guru Nanak Himself states that no one, including he, knows the fate of the soul after it leaves the body:

iek dJih iek dbIAih ieknw kuqy Kwih ]

Some are cremated, and some are buried; some are eaten by dogs.

ieik pwxI ivic austIAih ieik BI iPir hsix pwih ]

Some are thrown into water, while others are thrown into wells.

nwnk eyv n jwpeI ikQY jwie smwih ]2]

O Nanak, it is not known, where they go and into what they merge.

We can philosphize, analyze, discuss this as much as we want but only God Himself knows the true aftermath. So would you consider yourself more knowledgable or blessed with more insight into this matter than guru nanak?

The only way someone could truly comment about the state of the soul after death is if they died, experienced what happend to their soul, and then came back in human form to tell others about it. Other religions may preach about such resurrection from the dead but gurbani avoids falling into this pitfall by completely avoiding any discussion on this matter -- for the gurus tell us that trying to discuss something which only God Himself knwos the answer to is futile so do not waste ur time discussing it. Instead live a honest life absorbed in Gods love while allive and leave the fate of the soul after physical death in gods hand. Talking or even thinkin about what may or may not happen is a waste of precious breaths.

[randip singh]

no gurshabadh is eternal and universal, it wouldnt use (what you consider) FALSE concepts again and again   just to explain something to a paticular people. it's so obvious there's heaven. guruji was giving those people the correct way to reach heaven, and not through there useless ways.

cMigAweIAw buirAweIAw vwcY Drmu hdUir ]

cha(n)giaaeeaa buriaaeeaa vaachai dhharam hadhoor ||

Good deeds and bad deeds-the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma.

krmI Awpo AwpxI ky nyVY ky dUir ]

karamee aapo aapanee kae naerrai kae dhoor ||

According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.

ijnI nwmu iDAwieAw gey mskiq Gwil ]

jinee naam dhhiaaeiaa geae masakath ghaal ||

Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows

nwnk qy muK aujly kyqI CutI nwil ]1]

naanak thae mukh oujalae kaethee shhuttee naal ||1||

-O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them! ||1||

147863[/snapback]

See this is where the debate gets really stupid. Acusation and counter acusation.

I am not suggesting they are False concepts at all.

On the contrary I am suggesting that our understanding of them is just about begining. We are those proverbial "country bumpkins" (me included) who are just begining to grasp the complex ideas and concepts put forth by our Guru's.

Science is just about catching up with ideas put forth by our Guru's. What is a thought? Scientists explain it in terms of chemical and electrical reactions but what is the force behind that? What makes us conscious to that, and why are we so different from other beings on our planets that are not capable of the same level of human consciousness (and in some human's, what I would describe as super consciousness, Guru's and alike, or Gurmookhs). Science has not even begun to fathom those ideas. That force that makes us aware or our "soul" as some describe it, Guruji gives us a way to realise that. In effect a way how to realise God (because God has created that).

I am not fixated on terms like heaven or hell. These are illustrations or terms used to describe our physical world we dwell in that we have not even yet realised. It is not a heaven or hell in the Semetic sense that some have suggested. If that were the case, we too would produce lunatics who drive aeroplanes into buildings. Far from from it our Sikh concepts are not about doing everything to set to the "Sale" (as I described earlier), but trying to create that "Sale" for every one around us, so that we may all move up to the next level of consciousness.

KharkooThanks again for a cracking post!

[singh_khalsa]

kharkoo how dare you say guru nanak himself doesnt know. this is just plain bad to say guruji doesnt know something. what guru ji is saying that we manmukhs do not what happens to the soul after death. look how many theoires there have been about the afterlife in this world. if you disagree, then start a topic saying guru ji doesnt know everything and use that as an example.

[proud_to_be_singhni]

I got one thing to add to this title and that is Why??? Why????..........

have vichaar thas all well and good but seems like after reading some of the posts the 'usual' people are just bashing each others views when time can be spent Doing bani and simran.

You may realise how short time really is when u add the amount of time youvve spent arguing and arguing and.......still...arguing!