Can Sikhism Offer Salvation?

[gupt_paapi]

Looks like Rajs (aka the copy/paste-christian) strikes again.

The twerp is a product of a Christian mission setup in UK to specifically target Sikhism.

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tell us more @ @

[Mehtab Singh]

Sat Sri Akal:

Bhai Mehtab Singh Deh Jawaab Dah Koi Jawaab Nahee

Kithaa Kattar Akhree Vaar, Likhya Keyboard Deh Raahee

Haraayaa Koor Parchaar Noo Jiwe Mirg Nu Maarya Baagh

Kutthia Rajs Nu Jiveh Pendoo Bibian Kuthdiaan Sarson Dah Saag

Rehgayaa ms514 Guru Di Kirpa To La Jawaab

Dhan Guru Sahiban Jine Mittee Nu Baniya Nawaab

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That was hilarious veerjee

Now to answer the root question of Mr/Miss Rajs : "Can Sikhism offer salvation?" Surprisingly, a true GurSikh harbours such an overflowing love for his/her SatGuru, that he/she doesn't care about salvation. As Kabir Jee said "raj na chaahu, mukat na chaahu, mann preet charan kamla re", meaning "I don't want to rule, I don't want liberation, my mind wants the love of the Guru's feet". You can brainwash a potential suicide bomber with the pleasures of the after life, not a Singh/Singhnee of Kalgidhar Shahenshah. We Sikhs of Guru Sahib beg for the love of His feet, and these offers of heavens, rivers of milk, 70 virgins etc. etc aint gonna tempt us.

Multi/Liberation/Salvation was asked once "You liberate everyone, how do you get liberated?" And the reply was "Whenever a martyr sacrifices his/her life for his/her faith, I take the dust of their feet and then I am liberated". Sikh history is written in the blood of martyrs, our Shaheed Singhs and Singhniyaan. So we are away from any tension/anxiety about salvation.

So Mr/Miss Rajs, you are messing with the wrong people. Liberation is something Gurujee urges us to achieve WHILE WE ARE ALIVE. The heavens which are equivalent to "salvation" for you are of no importance to us.

[singh_comradz]

he claims he is a christian but for all we know rajs could just be another rss/bajrang dal joker spreading crap on the net

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

TWO WORDS: JEEVAN MUKHT (LIBERATED WHILE ALIVE).

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Above is too much to read!

It is blah blah blah!

Here we go and lets make it all clear for the misguided people!

Maare-aa Sikka Jagat Wich Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya! - Bhai Gurdass Vars

Jub Lug Khalsa Rhai Niaaraa Tub Lug Taig Deo Mai Saara!

Jub Eh Ghai Bipran Kee Reet Mai Naa Karo In Kee Parteet - Dasam Paatshah

Khalso Baykeena Guru Gobind Singh! - Bhai Nand Lal

Naa Hum Na Musalmaan|| Allah Raam Kay Pind Praan! - Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Hindu Anna Turku Kaana Dohaa Tay Giani Siaana! - Guru Granth Sahib Ji

There we go!

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Khalsa Fauj...what is wrong with you...can't you see this is a contest about who can pummel the other person into submission by choking them to death with a barrage of words?

Seriously...some people just don't get it...

[Mehtab Singh]

Its a tug of war and I'll lose coz my hands got oily while I was oiling my kesh and daara. These non-Sikhs always get it easy and win...not fair!

[Naam Jaap]

Sat Sri Akal:

Here we go...

"It is quite evident from Sikh scriptures, Punjabi culture, customs and traditions that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism with some Islamic theology adaptations,"

First, define Hinduism...there is no cohesive definition.  Some say it is monotheistic, whereas there is an India Supreme Court decision what states it is polytheistic.  Some proclaim the Vedas as supreme and others the Shastras.  Truth be told, "Hinduism" is a bunch of various philosophies and paths cobbled together by one commonality:  Thr Brahmin and the Manu Simrities.  Through the assignment of castes, the Brahmins have forced often contradictory philosophies together for their personal benefit. 

Now, as per your point...Sikhism has many concepts in common with all world religions because they all share certain universal concepts.  However, it is ludicrous to assume that Sikhism and Hinduism share common roots when the primary concept of the religion is vastly different.  The "Hindus" (aka. Vedic followers) mostly agree upon the trinity known as OM, which designates Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.  Sikhism goes to Ik Ongkaar, which denotes the Primal Power that created the trinity.  It is to that One Almighty that the Sikhs worship.  Vastly different from Hinduism, in which each village and town has a local diety that they worship.

"Historically, the ten gurus never ever disassociated themselves from Hinduism but remain within the parameter of Hinduism."

For that the Gurus speak these words:

I observe neither fasting (like a Hindu).

nor the month of austerity (like a Muslim).

For I serve God alone.

Who saves all at the last.

Gosain of the Hindus and Allah of the Muslims are one to me.

I have broken free from Hindus as from Muslims.

Neither I go to Mccca to perform Hajj (like Muslims),

nor I perform worship at pilgrim places of Hindus.

I serve only the sole Lord (i.e., God) and no other.

I neither perform the Hindu worship.

nor say the Muslim prayer.

I bow to the One Formless Lord in my heart.

We are neither Hindus nor Musalmans,

Our body and soul belong to the One Supreme Being,

Who alone is both Ram and Allah for us.[53]

Guru, Guru Granth Sahib, Rag Bhairo, Guru Arjun Sahib, 1136

As per your Gurus are Hindus and never started another religion.  If the Gurus never started another religion, then what Hindu diety did they worship?  What was the need for another Granth Sahib when 100's of Hindu Granths existed?  Rather, the reason for establishing a new religion is read by Sikhs every day in the Tav Parsad Sawiyae, where Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes that he wandered everywhere and saw nobody as a devotee of the Almighty.  These wanderings are none other that that of Guru Nanak Sahib that the tenth embodiment of Guru Nanak Sahib in the body and name of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is writing.  The verse from the Guru Granth Sahib Ji stands testament to the separation from Hinduism and Islam.

"however, if you are to take Gobind singh's baptism initiation as a beginning for Sikh religion then you will have to disqualify the previous nine gurus as Sikh Gurus because none of them were baptized."

Wrong:

He washed His feet, eulogised God and got his Disciples drink the ambrosia of his feet.

charan dhhoe rehiraas kar charanaamrith skhiaan peelaayaa||

Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Sahib, Vaar 1, Pauri 23

Every succeeding Guru was a disciple of the previous Guru and chosen because of their selfless dedication to the Sikh path.  Guru Nanak was given the Amrit of Naam directly by the Almighty:

ho dtaadtee vaekaar kaarai laaeiaa ||

I was a minstrel, out of work, when the Lord took me into His service.

raath dhihai kai vaar dhhurahu furamaaeiaa ||

To sing His Praises day and night, He gave me His Order, right from the start.

dtaadtee sachai mehal khasam bulaaeiaa ||

My Lord and Master has summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence.

sachee sifath saalaah kaparraa paaeiaa ||

He has dressed me in the robes of His True Praise and Glory.

sachaa a(n)mrith naam bhojan aaeiaa ||

The Ambrosial Nectar of the True Name was brought forth.

(Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Nanak Sahib, 150).

"You will also have to accept Gobind Singh's baptism initiation as a failure because the number of Sikhs baptised at any given time in history and at present is pitifully low. "

Pitifully low?  It was enough to save Hinduism from extinction.  Sikhism never values quantity but quality.  There were 80,000 people gathered at the Bisakhi in 1699 and only 5 got up to become Sikhs.  Guru Gobind Singh himself stated that he would make 1 Sikh fight 250,000, and he fulfilled that promise at Chamkaur Sahib.  Nadir Shah was absolutely flabbergasted that small contingents of Sikhs (less than a hundred) would daringly attack his army and take back the women and property he had looted to be returned to India and pined that they would one day rule India.  On the reverse end, there were millions of Hindus in India and yet they could not stop the Mughals from trampling the populace.  The Brahmins and Kshytrias sold out their own people to the Mughals.  Tell me, what good were numbers then?    Failure?  Hardly...Sikhism has become a global religion and a community that holds plenty of power in countries like Canada, U.K. and U.S.  You have yet to realize the full potential of Sikhs.

"The Guru Granth is touted, as the ultimate living Guru for the Sikhs. However, the fact is that Guru Arjun wrote the "Adi Granth" in 1604 but it wasn't until another 104 years before it became "Guru Granth"! What, may I ask, was the status of Guru Granth between 1604 and 1708? Were Guru Arjun and the rest of the Gurus running a parallel Guruship along the Guru Granth or, for over hundred year period it was just an ordinary book? "

Your comments show your complete ignorance of Sikh history as well as the training of the human mind.  The object was to teach humanity how to live like humans again and that took 10 Gurus, not just to save Hindus from the Mughals as you are assuming.  It it wold require 10 Gurus to restore honor and religion to those who had been trampled upon by every invading force for thousands of years.  The Adi Granth Sahib was indeed written in the time of the 5th Guru and upon its assuming its throne in the Harimandir Sahib, no Guru ever sat at the same level as Gurbani but always lower. It took 6 Gurus to completely ingrain the concept of Gurbani, NOT the Guru body being the Guru.  The idea was to firmly teach the Sikhs the firm concepts of Sikhism and make Sikhs.  Had they not done so, Sikhism would be idol worshippers like your ilk, praying blindly to pictures and idols of Gurus instead of paying heed to the teachings.  The Adi Granth Sahib was never treated as an ordinary book, but rather given a high regard by the Gurus themselves.  That is why the Gurus wrote "Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani". 

"Why, I mean, where were the Sikhs to take care of his remains or flowers? What about the bodies of later nine gurus? Since they were attributed with same jyote (guru's spirit) then how come their bodies did not turn into flowers or whatever?"

Because the Sikhs do not have any attachment to the physical remain.  If a Sikh body after death was creamted, buried, tossed into a river, it matters not.  If the Muslims and Hindus were arguing over such a matter, the Guru would have wanted to resolve the situation amicably.  Your version of history states that the Hindus and Muslims took the flowers and performed rights on them.  Other versions of history state that Guru Sahib's body simply turned into flowers, thus avioding the problem of burial or cremation altogether, because there was no longer a body to cremate.

"Nanak was greatly influenced by the Bhakti movement, and various Sufis and Sants. The journeys he undertook were mainly to learn from others, rather than, to dispense his own brand of religion, i.e., Sikhism. In India, he mainly taught against Brahminism and their self-serving practises, but did not, at any stage reject Hinduism. Incorporating teachings of Farid, Ravidas, Surdas, Kabir, Ramanand, etc. in the Granth is a clear indication of lack of original substance on part of the Gurus. Sikhism has pretty much kept Hinduism's idea of birth-death-cycles to achieve Mukti, i.e, so called soul uniting with God, as a final stage for humans. "

Read Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Sahib, but since you remain ignorant of the rest of Sikh history, how can I expect you to do that.  So I will summarize.  Guru Nanak Sahib NEVER went to learn anything from anyone.  Even in school, he was the one who taught the teacher what the real purpose of the letter he was teaching to the class were and in a few days, the teacher remarked that he had tried to teach Guru Nanak Sahib everything he knew, but there was nothing left.  On his trips to various religious places, he confronted and challenged every group directly and defeated them, showing them that their practices were meaningless.  He defeated the Vedics, the Muslims, the Yogis and anyone who claimed to be the superior intellect of the age. 

" Incorporating teachings of Farid, Ravidas, Surdas, Kabir, Ramanand, etc. in the Granth is a clear indication of lack of original substance on part of the Gurus. Sikhism has pretty much kept Hinduism's idea of birth-death-cycles to achieve Mukti, i.e, so called soul uniting with God, as a final stage for humans. "

Why don't you go read some Hindu scriptures.  The Vedas are nothing more than instruction manuals to the Brahmins on how to perform rituals for their clients to get them what they want.  The Upanishads, one of the few truly enlightening Granths, calls the Vedas inferior knowledge.  The Manu Simrities have women kissing their husband's feet and worshipping them like Gods while being treated worse than the untouchables.  You have Brahmins pouring lead into any "lower caste" who hears the Vedas and poking their eyes out for reading the Vedas.  Compare this to the equality preaching, anti-ritual, anti-caste teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib and you have the spheres to state that the Guru Granth Sahib is unorigional?  The Bhagats you are mentioning were all mostly low-caste that Hinduism would never have accepted the teachings of as Divine.  What talk is there of Mukhti in Hinduism?  Which diety do I have to bribe to get that?  There are even Yogic practices that can force the soul to leave the body...and then what?  You wander the earth like a ghost?  The concept of the One Almighty is all but lost in Hindusim, replaced by ritualism and idolatory.  Heck, you have people worshipping Krishna Avatar when his teaching tell Arjuna to worship the One Almighty as he explains that he as been ever present in the world through various incarnations. 

"Finally, on a personal level, as a Sikh, I found that Sikhism has no answer for the ultimate barrier between God and man. In my search for the truth about God, I discovered that what actually separates us from God is sin. God is HOLY and we are sinners. There is nothing we can do to reach the level of holiness God requires to be without sin, so God provided the source of our salvation, Jesus Christ, and ONLY through him, we may receive the forgiveness of sins, which leads to salvation."

And it comes out...you are a Jehova's Witness, probably a convert from Hinduism or Sikhism without any knowledge of the two, trying to do his best on a Sikh forum.  I feel for you buddy...so much pressure.  You got peers that are telling you to spread the word of Christ and you got all this new energy.  First resolve this problem for me:  the origional sin.  If my ancestor Adam committed a sin, why am I born with it?  Consequently, if my ancestor's sins can cumulate in such a fashion, then all the sins of my forefathers and mothers would also add up into my body.  So all those sins are mine, right?  What type of God allows this?  Why the heck do I have to pay for sins that some old dude hundreds of years ago committed?  Next, if you think Sikhism and Hinduism are the same then you have to know that Christianity is the same thing as Judaism with a few little changes right?  Shoot, you guys come from the same country, you read the same scriptures (the Old Testament is a Jewish and a Christian text), you have the same commandments.  Tell me, what makes your faith so distinct?  On top of that, your savior had long uncut hair and a turban, as was the custom of those who resided in Nazereth and the Judaic lands. Yet, I don't see none of your missionary friends wearing a turban or keeping long hair?  Whatsa matter, afraid of looking like your cousin religion, the Muslims?

Rather than going on forums trying to preach half-researched bull, how about you read up on the Bible and try to follow it instead of having the preachers intrepret it for you.  You will find in those words  much more tolerant than the typical "Jesus or eternal damnation" propaganda spread by a low of people.  If you have any questions on the Bible, ask.  I'll be more than happy to teach your religion to you.

P.S.  Jesus never said that ONLY through him can salvation be reached.  That was written by the disciple John as his opinion in the ever-famous 3:16 but is NOT a directly attributable quote to Jesus.  Basically, he wrote his opinion and the Christians take it as fact.  His name isn't even Jesus Christ, but Jesus of Nazereth.  Christ was added on later as it is a Greek variant of Christos, which means of the Lord.

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This is by far one of the best posts i've ever read. Just shows how far behind i am in Sikh history.

i'm truly amazed at your response ms514.

[Pheena]

Sat Sri Akal:

Here we go...

"..................

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@ that was truely an amazing post.

[japmans]

dhannnnnn guru nanak, holy God, ms514.... hahahahahhahahahahahha WOWWW.... can i be your best friend? PLEASE??? i'll give you candy!

but seriously...that line of:

"if you have questions bout the Bible, feel free to ask. I'll be more than happy to teach your religion to you"

wow!