Bhagat Kabir Ji

[Bijla Singh]

Namstang, certainly your post is very foolish. The only way for you to debate is by writing insulting remarks about others and calling them names. I don't think you will like it if I started labeling you. Neither do I support Bhasaurs nor do I read Ghagga's books.

Sri Akaal Purkh

- Guru Sahiban (Sri guru nanak dev ji )

- Guru (spiritual teacher/murshid) - this one is used mostly by bhagats to describe their teachers.

According to Gurbani:

1) No difference between Guru and Akal Purakh

2) Guru is only one – “Ika Bani Ik Gur”

3) Guru Nanak Sahib is the only Satguru and highest of all

Now if your statements are correct then it means that there is someone (gurus of bhagats) equal to Guru Nanak Sahib and they too have the same status (Guru) equal to Guru Sahib in Gurbani. This can only be your opinion and not a fact that can be proved from Gurbani. Is Ramanand a Satguru? No. Is Fareed's guru a Satguru? No. Only Satguru can give naam and that is Guru Sahib. Others have no place. Furthermore, no human beings are given special place or are praised in Gurbani. If I accept your argument then I will also have to accept that Gurus of Bhagats (human beings) are praised in Gurbani. This is clearly wrong and total foolishness. Guru Sahib chose death over writing praising lines about Mohammad in Gurbani. Gurbani praises only Waheguru and His Shabad Saroop. No human beings are praised or given the same status as Guru Sahib in Gurbani. Even Taksal agrees on this.

The mere thought that other Naams are equal to Gurmat naam can only come from an <banned word filter activated>'s mind. Gurmantar is superior and all other names fall short. You have not stated a single source to refute my points. Many puratan sources prove that Bhagats became Sikhs of Guru Sahib. It makes no sense why much of their work was rejected but only portion of it was included with Gurbani. Your argument about diversity makes no sense at all. Anything that contradicts with Sikhi, Gurmat Marg, is not acceptable nor was it accepted by Guru Sahib.

Creation - Beginning of creation is not analogous to reproduction. Creation was created by Waheguru which shows that even creation has a creator. Human beings have only one way to come into existence and that cannot be changed. Guru Sahib traveled into many spheres. ok, I accept that but why didn't he come into this world by some other way? Guru, by the way, is as same as Akal Purakh who is out of cycle of death and birth. Bhagat Kabir Ji asks Brahmin the same question in his shabad "Aat Baat Kahay Nahin...". If someone with supernatural powers could take human form then why don’t “Sur Nar Mun Jann” do it? They are begging for human form so they can get naam and get muktee.

We don't need "brahmgyanis" in the Panth. We need learned and educated rehatwaan gursikhs like Baba Deep Singh and Bhai Mani Singh.

[N30S1NGH]

According to Gurbani:

1) No difference between Guru and Akal Purakh

2) Guru is only one – “Ika Bani Ik Gur”

3) Guru Nanak Sahib is the only Satguru and highest of all

1. Guru is Sargun saroop of Vahiguroo, Vahiguroo is sargun saroop of Guru, No difference. However, to say Shabad Guru and Nirgun Parbhram Vahiguroo are same is direct contradiction to teachings of sri guru granth sahib and more specific - direct contradiction to sri guru gobind singh ji - jaap sahib composition in which Guru sahib clearly explain lakshan of nirgun paratama says:

QUOTE

nam tham na jati jakar roop rung na raikh

adi purkh odhar moorat ajoni adi asaikh

dais aur na bhais jakar roop raikh na rag

jatar tatar disa visa hoeh phailio anurag. (80)

O Lord, You have no one Name, no one dwelling place, no caste, no shape or color or any signs. You are the Source of all and present in each one. You are Gracious and Benign. You do not take birth, You are the Primal Being, All Perfection (no defect).

You belong to no country and wear no dress. You have no shape or any mark. You pervade as Love in all directions everywhere. (80)

2. Guru is only one (jot), light is only one. Ikongkar is one.

3. Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is considered an highest poran avtar in samparda's but not the only one. There were other hari avtars as well:

quoting from bhindran taksal samparda literature:

According to Hindu belief there are many types of incarnations but for God there are six. These are the following; -

- Ansa Avtar

- Avesha Avtar

- Nit Avtar

- Namitak Avtar

- Pooran Avtar

- Pooran Tam Avtar

1) Ansa Avtar is an incarnation of the Lord in the form of a righteous king who rules the people of his kingdom in accordance to the will of God. The people of the kingdom revere their ruler as God

2) Avesha Avtar is an incarnation or a divine form of God, which appears in order to please its devotee such as that of a statue drinking milk from Bhagat Namdev Ji. It is also the form of Parasram who was born without divine powers but acquired them later on in his life through devotion to God.

3) Nit Avtar is the form of God as a saint on earth. These are Sants, Mahapurkh, Brahmgiani, etc.

4) Namitak Avtar is the form of God that was assumed by Narsingh and Bawan. Narsingh came to the earth in order to protect his devotee Prahlad while Bawan came in order to deceive King Bali. After both had done their respected tasks they went back to heaven and never actually took birth on the earth.

5) Pooran Avtar is the incarnation that has 16 divine attributes and characteristics. Only Krishna has been born of this form.

6) Pooran Tam Avtar is regarded as that of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji as they came to the earth with the same powers as they had in heaven as the supreme Lord. They also came into the world already with knowledge and did not need to find any teachers, as they were already the one true master.

Now if your statements are correct then it means that there is someone (gurus of bhagats) equal to Guru Nanak Sahib and they too have the same status (Guru) equal to Guru Sahib in Gurbani. This can only be your opinion and not a fact that can be proved from Gurbani. Is Ramanand a Satguru? No. Is Fareed's guru a Satguru? No. Only Satguru can give naam and that is Guru Sahib. Others have no place. Furthermore, no human beings are given special place or are praised in Gurbani. If I accept your argument then I will also have to accept that Gurus of Bhagats (human beings) are praised in Gurbani. This is clearly wrong and total foolishness. Guru Sahib chose death over writing praising lines about Mohammad in Gurbani. Gurbani praises only Waheguru and His Shabad Saroop. No human beings are praised or given the same status as Guru Sahib in Gurbani. Even Taksal agrees on this.

I agree no human being were given same status as Guru sahib as i myself said above Satguru nanak dev ji being highest avtar of all, however to make it sound like there were no other guru's who got grace of vahiguroo ji and gave mukhti to others before satguru nanak dev ji, is quite a bold statement and biggest challenge to sri akaal purkh rachna. Those mukht souls who got mukhtee before arrival of satguru nanak dev ji you can call them - guru/satguru along with other names (bhagat,sants,bhramgyani), you can call them guru/satguru because guru/satguru label is not limited to sikhism and guru/satguru label is not always used in context of how is the highest avtar but used in the context of its literal meaning*, that label is also used by other mats after all guru/satguru all these terms are sanskrit ones, i dont understand how could a sikh can tell hindu bhagat follower of bhagat kabir to call him bhagat ji only or bhagat ravidasa- bhagat ji only, they can label their teachers- guru, bhagats interchangably.

*Literal meaning ofs Sat meaning 'Truth Eternal'

Guru arises from 'Gu' = Dark (Ignorance) and 'Ru' = Light (Knowledge)

'Sat Guru' therefore refers to 'that which leads one from Ignorance to Knowledge'

So Guru/satguru terms are not limited to sikhi only, yes when it comes to sikhi, usually sikhs use to describe satguru nanak dev ji avtar, but its foolish to claim monoply over that term.

The mere thought that other Naams are equal to Gurmat naam can only come from an <banned word filter activated>'s mind. Gurmantar is superior and all other names fall short. You have not stated a single source to refute my points. Many puratan sources prove that Bhagats became Sikhs of Guru Sahib. It makes no sense why much of their work was rejected but only portion of it was included with Gurbani. Your argument about diversity makes no sense at all. Anything that contradicts with Sikhi, Gurmat Marg, is not acceptable nor was it accepted by Guru Sahib.

Within gurughar, there are many mantars:

Bij mantar: Ikongkar

Parapoorabla mantar: Satnaam

Gurmantar: Vahiguroo

All are superior, all talks about attributes of akaal purkh, all can take you across the ocean.

Here gurbani doing Upma of ikongkar (mantar):

Pirthame On(g)kar So Dhun Poran Jagat Mae Raha ||

Fist ongkar was recited and that resosance created world and give nourishment to this world. (Siri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth Sahib)

Ongkar aad kathni anad, Khal Khand Khyal Gurbar Akaal ||

Ongkar Bhrama Utpat ||

bhrama(creator) came from ongkar resosance.

Ongkar Kiya Jin Chit ||

Then bhrama did bhagti on ongkar for thousands of years. After that Nirgun asked him, what do you want? Bhram asked god to give him powers to create the world.

Ongkar Saiyel Jug Paie ||

Ongkar Vaid Nirvaie ||

Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, with ongkar - Nirgun transcedents it's attributes into sargun

[randip singh]

3) BHagat Kabir Bani is an extension od Sikhism - UNTRUE - Guru ji only included elements of the Bhagats Bani that was compatible with Sikhism. For example Bhagat Kabir talks about the company of women being immoral/evil. This is at odds with Sikh teaching that talks about Kings and Prices being born from women. With all Bhagat Bani's only compatible or common threads with Sikhism are included.

vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh

where does Bhagat Kabir Ji say the things which are not compatible with Sikhi? did he write more which hasn't been included in Bani? where?

sorry for the ignorance - just haven't heard of the company-of-women-being-evil/immoral reference before.

~l~

vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh

Check page 116 in this essay by Daljeet Singh.

http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/sd.pdf

He describes woman as a Black Cobra.........."Woman ruins everything when she comes near man: Devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul"

One shouldn't be disheartened that Kabir ji had such views...................since Guru Nanak only took the views of Bhagats that were common to the views of the Sikh or Sikhism. He dicarded the rest. A great example of this is Sheikh Farid.....a devout Muslim who had devout views about Islam.................Guru Nanak discarded his views on Islam and kept those that were common to his view. In this same way, Guru Nanak disregarded Bhagat Kabirs Vaishnav views (on women, ahimsa etc).................and kept those

PS KalSingh...................I suggest if you don't understand something, then keep your mouth and views to yourself, before expressing diatribe on this forum. I have not insulted Bhagat Kabir as you claim but pointed out fact. I am a Sikh and not a Kabir Panthi.............................Kabir Panthi's are nothing to do with Sikhism. Their views are generally alien to Sikhism.

[Guest waheguruji]

From my experience if we keep focused on the True Guru than the countless attributes of these Avtars (who came for some reason) will keep our minds at ease and peace

Sikh Sants like Baba Nand Singh Ji were guides who lived the Gurbani to realise the True Guru

Bachan Baba Isher Singh Ji

"Even if a Sant becomes a Guru he will always remain a Sant"

[Guest waheguruji]

He describes woman as a Black Cobra.........."Woman ruins everything when she comes near man: Devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul"

Why would Kabir Ji say that when he was a married man and he think he was referring to Maya (mammon) not to degrade women

[randip singh]

but relying on the research of Hazari Prased Trivedi, a British Scholar Charlotte Vaudenville is inclined to lend credence to these dates and has prooven that 1448 is probably the correct date of Saint Kabir's demise.

This is the only information that is provided. No details are given as to why these sources are more authentic than Kabir Panthis.

According to Meharbaan Janamsakhi Bhagat Ji met Guru Nanak Sahib. Guru Sahib was 38 and Bhagat Ji was 108. Bhagat Ji's bani after becoming Guru wala is included in Guru Granth Sahib. Everything else was rejected. This is included in Bhagat Bani Ithaas by Giani Gurdit Singh. The following picture is from the book. I am still doing research on this topic.

Hi,

Meharban (the grandson of the 4 th Guru), Sakhi, must be coroborated with other documents......as has been done with some events. The most scholarly work on Kabir's dates is Vaudaville's work.

PS Some Points to note:

1) Meharban led the Minas Cult which corrupted Sikh teaching.

2) Guru Arjan condemened the Minas and basic historical contents of the Janamsakhi ...........Sikhs didnt touch it for centuries until Dr Kirpal Singh resureccted it.

3) Meharban introduces the theory that Guru Nanak was an Avtar of King Janak, father in-law of Rama and father of Sita.

4) The Minas wanted the Sikhs to have a Hindu Pantheon.

5) They changed Guru Nanak's place and date of birth

6) Along with the Hindali's they placed Kabir abiove Guru Nanak.

7) Bhai Gurdas condems and criticises Meharban. Read // 36-1 to 36 - 11 where the Minas are condemed and described as "hypocritical" and "spiritless evil persons"

8) Meharban and Prithi Mal insulted the Guru's face to face.

9) Bhai Buddha and Bhai Gurdas ousted the Meharban and the Minas from Amritsar

10) Meharban started calling himself the seventh Guru.....while his sone Harji the 8th.

11) Meharban tried to corrupt Mulmantaar

Moral....be careful using Meharban Sakhi.

[Revolutionary]

3) BHagat Kabir Bani is an extension od Sikhism - UNTRUE - Guru ji only included elements of the Bhagats Bani that was compatible with Sikhism. For example Bhagat Kabir talks about the company of women being immoral/evil. This is at odds with Sikh teaching that talks about Kings and Prices being born from women. With all Bhagat Bani's only compatible or common threads with Sikhism are included.

vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh

where does Bhagat Kabir Ji say the things which are not compatible with Sikhi? did he write more which hasn't been included in Bani? where?

sorry for the ignorance - just haven't heard of the company-of-women-being-evil/immoral reference before.

~l~

vaheguru ji ka khalsa vaheguru ji ki fateh

Check page 116 in this essay by Daljeet Singh.

http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/sd.pdf

He describes woman as a Black Cobra.........."Woman ruins everything when she comes near man: Devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul"

"While Sikhism is strictly Theistic, Vaishnavism is, broadly speaking, pantheistic"

Incase readers dont know:

Theism is the belief in one or more gods or goddesses.

Pantheism (Greek: pan = all and Theos = God) literally means "God is All" and "All is God".

Hmm.. so Sikhi isnt pantheistic..? Hope the author has time to contemplate on Ek Oangkar

One shouldn't be disheartened that Kabir ji had such views...................since Guru Nanak only took the views of Bhagats that were common to the views of the Sikh or Sikhism. He dicarded the rest. A great example of this is Sheikh Farid.....a devout Muslim who had devout views about Islam.................Guru Nanak discarded his views on Islam and kept those that were common to his view. In this same way, Guru Nanak disregarded Bhagat Kabirs Vaishnav views (on women, ahimsa etc).................and kept those

It does dishearten us.. because then Muslims are right to say that all Guru Ji did was pick 'n' mix writings from other people.

[00gurpreet_singh00]

He describes woman as a Black Cobra.........."Woman ruins everything when she comes near man: Devotion, salvation and divine knowledge no longer enter his soul"

I think you should read bhagat kabeer jees bani from guru granth sahib, and try to see how bhagat jee uses metaphors and stuff like that to get his point across.......in my opinion, woman here means maya...not a female.........bhagat kabeer jee uses the same types of metapohrs/similies in Guru Granth Sahib as well.

There is a big difference between not putting a bhagats bani in Guru Granth Sahib Jee, and 'rejecting' it. Guru Granth Sahib is filled with 'dhur kee bani' . The bani that was meant to be put in it, from the beginning of time, was put in it....and nothing else was, regardless of how well written it was, or how compatible it was with gurmat or not.

also, with the discussion about sants, anyone that thinks sants have no place in sikhi, how would you elaborate on this salok?

kabeer, seva ko duae bhalae, ik sant ik raam

raam ju daataa mukat koe, sant japavai naam

...we agree that "Gur Parmesur eko jaan", so raam here refers to akaal purkh and Guru Sahib, who are the givers of muktee, so then who is the sant that is referred to in this shabad? It has already been written that seva of Guru Sahib and akaal purkh are 'bhalae', so the sant here needs to be somebody other then akaal purkh or guru sahib.

[Bijla Singh]

Bhai Namstang, you are missing the point and contradicting yourself.

I agree no human being were given same status as Guru sahib as i myself said above Satguru nanak dev ji being highest avtar of all, however to make it sound like there were no other guru's who got grace of vahiguroo ji and gave mukhti to others before satguru nanak dev ji, is quite a bold statement and biggest challenge to sri akaal purkh rachna. Those mukht souls who got mukhtee before arrival of satguru nanak dev ji you can call them - guru/satguru along with other names (bhagat,sants,bhramgyani), you can call them guru/satguru because guru/satguru label is not limited to sikhism and guru/satguru label is not always used in context of how is the highest avtar but used in the context of its literal meaning*, that label is also used by other mats after all guru/satguru all these terms are sanskrit ones, i dont understand how could a sikh can tell hindu bhagat follower of bhagat kabir to call him bhagat ji only or bhagat ravidasa- bhagat ji only, they can label their teachers- guru, bhagats interchangably.

First you say, Guru Sahib is highest of all and is Satguru. Then you say there have been other Satgurus and gave muktee. This means that other have been equal to Guru Sahib as they too were Satguru. According to Gurbani there is only one Satguru not multiple. Only Satguru (One only) has the power to give muktee. In Bhatt Sawayeeas it is clearly written that Guru Nanak Sahib has been giving muktee since Aad "Tu Satgur Chau(n) Jugee". Guru Sahib didn't take birth in 1469 because He has always existed and is out of the cycle of death and birth. Now, I would like you to tell me who else is a Satguru i.e. equal to Guru Sahib. One who is a Satguru has to be equal to Guru Sahib. So tell me who it is and how do we know? I would like to see the proof from Gurbani. When Bhai Gurdas JI said "Chau Jugan Ka Hun Nibayraa" he pointed out the significance and superiority of Gursikhi. If it was just like any other path then there was no need for Akal Purakh (Guru Sahib) to come to this world, start a new Panth and give us unique appearances for no reason.

Unless you prove your avtar theories using Gurbani I will not comment on it. I have read books written by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji and he too did not provide any references. Such theories exist among hindu saints and nirmalas but no reference to Gurbani is provided.

Randip, thanks for the info on Meharbaan Janamsakhi. I will look more into it.

[randip singh]

"While Sikhism is strictly Theistic, Vaishnavism is, broadly speaking, pantheistic"

Incase readers dont know:

Theism is the belief in one or more gods or goddesses.

Pantheism (Greek: pan = all and Theos = God) literally means "God is All" and "All is God".

Hmm.. so Sikhi isnt pantheistic..? Hope the author has time to contemplate on Ek Oangkar

Pantheism def:

The belief that the universe and god are one and the same: god has no existence independent of the universe, and therefore cannot be its creator. There is no divine purpose, and everything is a component of the greater whole. Pantheism in its pure form is a philosophical concept, and not a religion. Cosmic pantheism and Acosmic pantheism describe attributes of a particular religion. Some religious movements wrongly identify themselves as pantheistic, misinterpreting pantheism as animism.

Theism def

Theism is the belief in one or more gods or goddesses. More specifically, it may also mean the belief in God, a god, or gods, who is/are actively involved in maintaining the Universe. This secondary meaning is shown in context to other beliefs concerning the divine below.

A philosophical system which accepts a transcendent and personal God who not only created but also preserves and governs the world, the contingency of which does not exclude miracles and the exercise of human freedom.*

Page 1, Line 1 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

ik-oNkaar sat naam kartaa purakh nirbha-o nirvair akaal moorat ajoonee saibhaN gur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~

Goin by the above definitions, I would say the author was correct. God is the creator.......he creates life.

It does dishearten us.. because then Muslims are right to say that all Guru Ji did was pick 'n' mix writings from other people.

Not at all.

Our Guru's saw an element of good in all faiths, but only took that element of GOOD and illustrated it in Bani that had a commonality with Sikh belief.

Another example is Sheikh Farid. His Shabad is in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.........yet he was a Muslim..............does this mean we become Muslims.....NO..........but we recognise the common values that Islam in this case has with Sikhi.

That is why Bani is such a complete teacher.......it takes all modes of religious thought and extracts those elements from them that are common to Sikh belief. That is why we do not put down other faiths.