London Islam Talk Success

[kirpadhar]

Piyari Saad Sangat Jeeo,

Yesterday there was a talk held in a London University by the islamic society who had invited recent converts to their religion. After the Coventry Incident it had been decided amongst the Uk sangat that someone will attend this talk and remonstrate or demonstrate with the organisers if they put forward the recent speaker Aman Dhaliwal who went on to do nindia of guru sahibs.

Usually we tend to get such negative responses from the sangat especially when satkar of guru jee or sikhi is concerned and something has been done about it, but what happened yesterday is surely commendable. The youth who numbered about 50-60 including amritdharis and non amritdharis united in love for maharaj and went to this talk.

With maharaj's will the Speaker Aman Dhaliwal had not attended. It was a sight to see in the lecture room, the room was full of 50-60 singhs. The atmosphere was slightly tense, probably due to the fact that maybe the organisers did not expect us.

When we walked in, IT WAS SAD TO SEE SOME SIKH LADS AND GIRLS STANDING WAITING at the entrance. One Sikh lad had a dastaar, and one mona lad came up to us very surprised and visibly shaking saying how did you find out about this? Sangat jee we have to start involving ourselves in talks of other universities aswell...Firstly our own knowledge of other faiths will increase, but also we will get an opportunity to see just how many of our brothers and sisters are wavering or going over to other sides. Secondly, the people who go to these talks of other faith groups should make sure they have knowledge of what maharaj says about their faith. Some of these points will come up in a bit.

We didnt really see any other people there ie white people, mainly asian muslim or apnay. The talker started to talk. In effect what he said were valid points. He was a 3year old black muslim male, who had been 'institutionalised' from day one in care homes, correctional establishments and bascially went through criminal actvities and prison spells until he read the Koran. Then he decided to become muslim but in his own words couldnt find a right practising 'muslim'. All credit to him because he also said that he was empty and if he had come across sikh, buddhist or hindu scriptures he would have 'filled up' with them. Then he also mentioned how he found muslim young people not really praying properly or not understanding what they were doing. There were similarities between our youth and them.

He also talked about how the koran should be read by non muslims to see what it says. At the end he opened up to questions from the floor. Singh1 put his hand up saying the reason why they were there was because of the 'sikh' convert speaker issue. He went onto to say that there is free will and democracy in this country. Funny how that is mentioned when it pleases the mind. Simple answer to that was that singh 1 asked if he had kids. The speaker replied he did, and singh 1 asked would he educate them about islam he replied definitely, then was asked would he feel pain therefore if his children converted to another faith? It hit him that maybe other people are just as passionate about their faiths apart from islam.

Singh 2 then chose to expand on the definition of 'Sikh'. The islamic society from coventry had said Sikh Convert on their flyers etc but how can one convert if they were not sikh in the first place. Singh 2 asked the speaker to think about the use of the word convert , revert by asking if he had any faith before being muslim [he said he was a convert]; the speaker replied no and agreed that he really was not a convert because he was empty before.

Singh 3 then chose to tell the whole audience that Guru jee refers to the nature of a muslim in guru granth sahib jee as having a heart of wax ie should be compassionate and accepting of others, and this is contrary to making others a part of their own system. This was met with a round of applause from everyone in the hall.

Singh 4 then chose to make it clear that aman dhaliwal should not really slander the gurus or talk disrespectfully of the SIkh religion, and neither should he be talking as it is clearly provocative. The talker agreed entirely and promised to let the organisers and islamic societys know that this is important that he does not slander sikhi in anyway shape or form. Sangat jee , for your information at the speaker quoted from the koran - that one should not enforce religion on another- at this point Singh 1 wanted to ask " so is it true to say that a muslim going out trying to convert others is not right pracitising?" but time did not allow us to.

In between all this the dean of the university and a hindu entertainments rep from the student union tried to stop the talk which was quite funny because the conversation was amicable and not at all threatening. In fact there were muslims in the lecture room who were agreeing with what was being said. Sangat jee we need to be really clear with our thoughts and intentions. The number of youths there looked intimidating but the way the conversation went , it seemed that parchar of what a gursikh should be like was also going on.

Saadh sangat jee to clarify more issues at the end of the talk singh 1 went to the front to talk to the speaker with others. He represents a society called ISLAMIC PROPAGATION SOCIETY you should be able to get charity number from charity commission. We obtained his email to make sure the so called sikh talker does not talk again or is controlled - but we need to monitor these situations...our eyes and ears at unis are students themselves...baki maharaj kirpa kardea.

Singh 1 asked the speaker if a muslim does not get up for fajr niwaaj [their amrit vela prayer] then can they be called a muslim? he said definitely not. Singh1 said similarly if a Sikh cannot satisfy the definition of a sikh by Guru jee, then he cannot be a sikh. Our role is to work up to this definition. THE SPEAKER REMARKED: HE DID NOT KNOW SUCH A DEFINITON OF A SIKH EXISTED.

Conclusion

The singhs left controlled and with piyar. The task was complete, but we know by all means it never will be completed as Guru jees itihaas [history] has shown us. But one thing is for sure, credit goes out the youth ; who ususally dont get credit for good things. When the everyone returned to gurdwara a collective ardas was done asking maharaj for knowledge of our sikhi , keeping tiyar bar tiyar in rehit so that we can offer our minds bodys and wealth to guru jee for seva as well as knowledge of other faiths for our own sake.

Sangat jee: important issues arose from this:

1) parchar of sikhi in 'needy' areas like prisons hospitals and schools - through leaflets gatka and maybe awareness weeks

2) need for ourselves to be tiar bar tiar but also veechar before travelling to panthic issues so that we can come to an agreed conclusion

3) preparation of materials explaining sikhi to the 't' all areas.

4) the presence of all sangat was powerful to sikh non sikh members of audience.

just to finish maharaj 'killed it'.

After the ardas, raagis were doing kirtan and sang the shabad

"gursikha kee har dhoor de hum paapi bhee gat pae"

give me the dust of the feet of gursikhs [love for each other] so that i the sinner may be saved.

Sangat jee maharaj built up the whole situation to finish it off with this lesson. All the gursikhs non amritdhari or not / different jathebandies also embraced each other. Shared fatehs and left.

please forgive any errors in relaying the events back.

please do ardas that maharaj har maidanay fateh isse tara bakshan.

Waheguru jee ka khala waheguru jee kee phateh.

one of the paapis.

Fourth Mehl:

One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar.

Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased.

Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name.

One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.

That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed.

Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ||2||

[BARBARIAN]

Thank you for the information what we also need within our people is understanding and tolerance towards one another no matter what level people are on we have become so judgemental and cuss each other to make ourselves look better that’s not good I find sometimes we just stopped caring rather than pick someone up we give excuses why they should stay down was this the way of Guru Nanak? if we just cared more gave a bit more time stopped putting people down then no one would convert this doesn’t need science education or anything like that or even great knowledge of Sikhism just common sense and patience

thanks

[dalsingh101]

Sangat Ji, I feel like a fool, I rushed from work with only vague directions to get the venue yesterday meeting my cousin outside Russel Square Station.

To be honest I was just flabbergasted that a someone who was a Sikh man converted. I just wanted to see this guy and look into his eyes and see what type of man this was. After struggling through the rush hour and getting there late I wondered around foolishly with my vague instructions and gave up after about 45 minutes to an hour of searching.

But I'm so glad that the people that did turn up did. Thanks for the information.

Raj Karega Khalsa

[Pakandi baba]

Bole So Nihal! Sat Shri Akal!

Waheguru does Kirpa. May we reign on!

[Bundha]

Kirpadhar Ji,

Total respect.

How can we keep up this momentum? we need to.

We need an organisation (not another one!) just like R4G of young, active, aware khalsa who can tackle these issues.

[akaash]

Bole So Nihal! Sat Shri Akal!

Waheguru does Kirpa. May we reign on!

Nanak Naam Chardi Kala, Tere Bhane SARBAT Da Bhalla

[kirpadhar]

Kirpadhar Ji,

Total respect.

How can we keep up this momentum? we need to.

We need an organisation (not another one!) just like R4G of young, active, aware khalsa who can tackle these issues.

an organisation like a Sikh watchdog but with young sikhs to do the watching and reacting would be brilliant but on the other hand we are already in khalsa panth organisation and already should be active and reactive... sometimes just saying its seva is better than nothing. But you are right momentum is needed... it seems to me the same R4G sevadaars are ones who are at the forefront but seems to be spreading to the watchdog/parchar scene so ...maybe keep going with the flow and maharaj mite just baksh us with a proper org.

Just some thoughts.

Waheguru jee ka khalsa waheguru jee kee phateh

[UKGupt Kaur]

Brought tears to my eyes.

Really feel so proud of the Sikh Sangat!!!!!!!!! :TH:

Piyari Saad Sangat Jeeo,

Yesterday there was a talk held in a London University by the islamic society who had invited recent converts to their religion. After the Coventry Incident it had been decided amongst the Uk sangat that someone will attend this talk and remonstrate or demonstrate with the organisers if they put forward the recent speaker Aman Dhaliwal who went on to do nindia of guru sahibs.

Usually we tend to get such negative responses from the sangat especially when satkar of guru jee or sikhi is concerned and something has been done about it, but what happened yesterday is surely commendable. The youth who numbered about 50-60 including amritdharis and non amritdharis united in love for maharaj and went to this talk.

With maharaj's will the Speaker Aman Dhaliwal had not attended. It was a sight to see in the lecture room, the room was full of 50-60 singhs. The atmosphere was slightly tense, probably due to the fact that maybe the organisers did not expect us.

When we walked in, IT WAS SAD TO SEE SOME SIKH LADS AND GIRLS STANDING WAITING at the entrance. One Sikh lad had a dastaar, and one mona lad came up to us very surprised and visibly shaking saying how did you find out about this? Sangat jee we have to start involving ourselves in talks of other universities aswell...Firstly our own knowledge of other faiths will increase, but also we will get an opportunity to see just how many of our brothers and sisters are wavering or going over to other sides. Secondly, the people who go to these talks of other faith groups should make sure they have knowledge of what maharaj says about their faith. Some of these points will come up in a bit.

We didnt really see any other people there ie white people, mainly asian muslim or apnay. The talker started to talk. In effect what he said were valid points. He was a 3year old black muslim male, who had been 'institutionalised' from day one in care homes, correctional establishments and bascially went through criminal actvities and prison spells until he read the Koran. Then he decided to become muslim but in his own words couldnt find a right practising 'muslim'. All credit to him because he also said that he was empty and if he had come across sikh, buddhist or hindu scriptures he would have 'filled up' with them. Then he also mentioned how he found muslim young people not really praying properly or not understanding what they were doing. There were similarities between our youth and them.

He also talked about how the koran should be read by non muslims to see what it says. At the end he opened up to questions from the floor. Singh1 put his hand up saying the reason why they were there was because of the 'sikh' convert speaker issue. He went onto to say that there is free will and democracy in this country. Funny how that is mentioned when it pleases the mind. Simple answer to that was that singh 1 asked if he had kids. The speaker replied he did, and singh 1 asked would he educate them about islam he replied definitely, then was asked would he feel pain therefore if his children converted to another faith? It hit him that maybe other people are just as passionate about their faiths apart from islam.

Singh 2 then chose to expand on the definition of 'Sikh'. The islamic society from coventry had said Sikh Convert on their flyers etc but how can one convert if they were not sikh in the first place. Singh 2 asked the speaker to think about the use of the word convert , revert by asking if he had any faith before being muslim [he said he was a convert]; the speaker replied no and agreed that he really was not a convert because he was empty before.

Singh 3 then chose to tell the whole audience that Guru jee refers to the nature of a muslim in guru granth sahib jee as having a heart of wax ie should be compassionate and accepting of others, and this is contrary to making others a part of their own system. This was met with a round of applause from everyone in the hall.

Singh 4 then chose to make it clear that aman dhaliwal should not really slander the gurus or talk disrespectfully of the SIkh religion, and neither should he be talking as it is clearly provocative. The talker agreed entirely and promised to let the organisers and islamic societys know that this is important that he does not slander sikhi in anyway shape or form. Sangat jee , for your information at the speaker quoted from the koran - that one should not enforce religion on another- at this point Singh 1 wanted to ask " so is it true to say that a muslim going out trying to convert others is not right pracitising?" but time did not allow us to.

In between all this the dean of the university and a hindu entertainments rep from the student union tried to stop the talk which was quite funny because the conversation was amicable and not at all threatening. In fact there were muslims in the lecture room who were agreeing with what was being said. Sangat jee we need to be really clear with our thoughts and intentions. The number of youths there looked intimidating but the way the conversation went , it seemed that parchar of what a gursikh should be like was also going on.

Saadh sangat jee to clarify more issues at the end of the talk singh 1 went to the front to talk to the speaker with others. He represents a society called ISLAMIC PROPAGATION SOCIETY you should be able to get charity number from charity commission. We obtained his email to make sure the so called sikh talker does not talk again or is controlled - but we need to monitor these situations...our eyes and ears at unis are students themselves...baki maharaj kirpa kardea.

Singh 1 asked the speaker if a muslim does not get up for fajr niwaaj [their amrit vela prayer] then can they be called a muslim? he said definitely not. Singh1 said similarly if a Sikh cannot satisfy the definition of a sikh by Guru jee, then he cannot be a sikh. Our role is to work up to this definition. THE SPEAKER REMARKED: HE DID NOT KNOW SUCH A DEFINITON OF A SIKH EXISTED.

Conclusion

The singhs left controlled and with piyar. The task was complete, but we know by all means it never will be completed as Guru jees itihaas [history] has shown us. But one thing is for sure, credit goes out the youth ; who ususally dont get credit for good things. When the everyone returned to gurdwara a collective ardas was done asking maharaj for knowledge of our sikhi , keeping tiyar bar tiyar in rehit so that we can offer our minds bodys and wealth to guru jee for seva as well as knowledge of other faiths for our own sake.

Sangat jee: important issues arose from this:

1) parchar of sikhi in 'needy' areas like prisons hospitals and schools - through leaflets gatka and maybe awareness weeks

2) need for ourselves to be tiar bar tiar but also veechar before travelling to panthic issues so that we can come to an agreed conclusion

3) preparation of materials explaining sikhi to the 't' all areas.

4) the presence of all sangat was powerful to sikh non sikh members of audience.

just to finish maharaj 'killed it'.

After the ardas, raagis were doing kirtan and sang the shabad

"gursikha kee har dhoor de hum paapi bhee gat pae"

give me the dust of the feet of gursikhs [love for each other] so that i the sinner may be saved.

Sangat jee maharaj built up the whole situation to finish it off with this lesson. All the gursikhs non amritdhari or not / different jathebandies also embraced each other. Shared fatehs and left.

please forgive any errors in relaying the events back.

please do ardas that maharaj har maidanay fateh isse tara bakshan.

Waheguru jee ka khala waheguru jee kee phateh.

one of the paapis.

Fourth Mehl:

One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

Upon arising early in the morning, he is to bathe, and cleanse himself in the pool of nectar.

Following the Instructions of the Guru, he is to chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har. All sins, misdeeds and negativity shall be erased.

Then, at the rising of the sun, he is to sing Gurbani; whether sitting down or standing up, he is to meditate on the Lord's Name.

One who meditates on my Lord, Har, Har, with every breath and every morsel of food - that GurSikh becomes pleasing to the Guru's Mind.

That person, unto whom my Lord and Master is kind and compassionate - upon that GurSikh, the Guru's Teachings are bestowed.

Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of that GurSikh, who himself chants the Naam, and inspires others to chant it. ||2||

[japmans]

that was a nice read.

it also highlights the need for us as sikhs to realize that there might actually be Muslims out there who are good people (shock!! hehe)

The way the meeting went seems to have gone great, and that's really erally awesmoe that it remained peaceful and civilized. But it is importnat, inm y eyes, to opint out that the Muslmi speaker was as open-minded and tolerant as he was, too.. sometimes that is half the problem, and it's good that we matched his qualities of being open-minded and tolerant.

if we were aggressive, it would have made Sikhi look horrible, so HUGE commendations and applause to the singhs that went and remained calm and loving.

Shukar Hai

[Mehtab Singh]

Amazing job Singho!

Now they will think a million times before doing anything remotely similar.

Many many congratulations and salutations to all those who went there.

Keep the flame alive, burning, and kicking!