Khalistan : When Will We Get Our Own Independent Sate?

[Charandhoor Singh]

If we dont have a nation

There will be no Sikhism on the world in 80 years

Fantastic theory ... did you manage to think it up all by urself?

[hawk13]

My Friend you did not reply to a single point I made...Great post!!! :TH:

p.s. You may want to read up a bit on 'nation' and 'nationalism' rather than freely using the terms and ideas, or alternatively edit your post. Or I am afriad I will have to address your points and make you look rather silly. :nihungsmile:

dear friend, u call ur self expert on politics and economics u know nothing about INTERNATIONAL LAW, NATIONHOOD UN LAW ,GO THROUGH IT ,AND READ DEFACTO RECONITION AND DEJURE RECONITION HOW AND IN WHICH CONDITIONS IT IS GIVEN READ THE FULL UN CHARTER before making ur answering my mail see the LATEST events in east euorpe , each nationality has its own cocept of nationhood u need to employ modern milatary means u ignore recent events old concept of nationhood has collasped . Now it is revival of multinationhood THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN EARTH SUMMIT IN 2002 THERE WERE FEW TAKERS FOR OLD COCEPT EACH NATION REALSED THAT IS WHY INDIA HAD TO WALK OUT AFTER 2 WEEKS THIS WAS BLACKED OUT BY INDIAN MEDIA EVEN AUSTRLIA HAS SEPERATE REPRESENTTATION FOR SOME OF ITS ISLANDS, IF INDIA HAS TO SURVIVE IT HAS LIVE WITH NEW TRENDS . INCASE OF LIBERATED ZONES IN CONFLICT AREA INSIDE A COUNTRY DEFACTO RECOGINATION MAY BE GIVEN AND LATER CONVERTED INTO DEJURE ONE do not be unrealstic be realistic do not harp on old nationism which is dying do not cry over it we r cocerned about milatry and political victory which is not impossible.

[hawk13]

My Friend you did not reply to a single point I made...Great post!!! :TH:

p.s. You may want to read up a bit on 'nation' and 'nationalism' rather than freely using the terms and ideas, or alternatively edit your post. Or I am afriad I will have to address your points and make you look rather silly. :nihungsmile:

No my friend live in present go by recent events our track record is best whenever we came to power go and read my earlier posts do not live in past.think practically

[hawk13]

Dear friend chaderchur singh ji, do not feel shy of adderssing my points rather u will look silly not me iam a humble sevak of GURU JI come out of ur inflated ego try to live independent and free not in slavery it is ur choice go throgh the un law in detail, and UN CONSTITUTION

[guptveer1469]

Great hawk!

"Fantastic theory ... did you manage to think it up all by urself?"

1. The turban ban in Belgium and France. No Sikh group in India is condeming the bans, so many children cut their hair or don't wear turbans anymore. We need a Sikh nation that can condemn this law.

2. RSS. No Sikh group in India is condeming the bans, so Sikhs are becoming Hindus. We need a Sikh nation that can condemn this groups actions and take strict measures against it.

3. Justice of 1984 Delhi Anti-Sikh genocide. 250,000 extrajudicial killing, fake encounters etc. If we had a nation then the Brahmans wudn't have done this.

And like this we can go on.

Because of point 1, many children leave the Sikh religion (by cutting hair or not wearing turban)

Point 2, many Sikhs are being converted to Hinduism.

Point 3, many Sikhs have cutted their hair to save themselves.

To stop all this we need a nation.

Or else RSS will destroy Sikhism.

[guptveer1469]

BTW barjinder & hawk,

I forgot to ask,

Delhi Takht te baithegi aap guru di fauj;

Chattar jhoolenge sees par bohat hovegi mauj!

Is that gurbani ??

If it is, then please give me page no.

Thanks in advance

[Charandhoor Singh]

Gurfateh, Brother you have chosen to ignore just about every single point I have made and venture off on your own tangents. Until you can reply to or address the evident problems (such as people of Punjab don’t actually want Khalistan, lack of scriptural support etc) your ideology and theory on the creation of Khalistan is nothing more than a fantastically inelegant farce.

You speak of the Khalsa being a Nation and always having been one – you are aware that the idea and concept of nation and nationalism (which you seem obsessed with) came around in the 1770s yeah? And unless I am incorrect the Khalsa existed many years before that. Although everyone may have slightly different ideas of ‘nationalism’ – it is nothing to do with the Khalsa!!! There is nothing spiritual or religious in nationalism – it is pure tribalism, and as Albert Einstein put it…. ‘Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind’’. The primary purpose of the nation is to fulfil the psychological and sociological needs of mass to have human company. Also, for the love of God if you are going to use the term nation, at least differentiate between the term ‘state’ and ‘nation’ – they are not interchangeable!!!

Your serious limitation of the Khalsa is nothing short of uneducated blasphemy – Khalsa will rule the world, why do you seek sovereignty over a small piece of land that the occupants don’t want you rule? I believe such forms of government would be known as tyrannical dictatorship and more along the lines of the Taliban. In your opinion can I ask what notion of Nationalism does the Khalsa subscribe to? A few examples from history for you to choose from include: Liberal, Conservative, Extreme, Anti-Colonial, Expansionist… also you speak of the ‘revival of multinationhood’, the use of the word revival implies that it had previously existed – exactly what planet was that in?

I see you have great faith in the UN who are often believed to be obsolete in the world of International Affairs. If a State like USA can completely defy it do you not think India can? The weak are subject to UN Laws, the powerful do as they wish in matters relating to self interest – as harsh as it sounds, that’s International Politics for you. I think the recent Punjab election shows that it is highly unlikely you will have any legitimate political victory any time soon – and as there doesn’t actually seem to be any active paramilitary Sikhs fighting in Punjab – military victory also seems a bit plausible.

I do not doubt that Khalsa Raj will happen, nor do I doubt that Maharaj is capable of doing anything. However you are entirely making up Khalsa Raj as how your imagination sees fit, letting your mind run wild and believing things will happen and work out like they do in the movies – which again begs the question if you have actually read any old sources (Gurbani or historical) relating to Khalsa Raaj.

I have at no point claimed to be an expert in anything… your making that up, however I agree I could sort my ego out a bit, I just found your posts too funny and could not resist. However as for calling me a slave, I find it rather ironic considering that with the ‘freedom’ you want to gain from India you then want enslave your self to Western Ideals. After creating a new state you will join with the International System, in line with the Westphalia Principles and subject to the definition of a ‘State’ – which of course was created by powerful states in order to make it easier for them to rule. Even although your warships and fighter jets (which is presume will just fall out of the sky with pilots) will give you a false sense of security. Oh and of course the cherry on top of the farcical cake is the fact that what you want to do and claim what will happen is entirely out with Sikhi and the Khalsa. What you have written, where is anything even remotely similar to what you are saying written in Sikh Scriptures or mentioned in history?

P.S. Please write clearly properly and in an educated manner. Your poor spelling, almost non existent grammar and random use of caps makes it difficult to comprehend exactly what you are trying to say a lot of times.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

sikhs don't want khalistan. ok fine. what do they want?

well if we examine the same darn demands from the time of partition it seems they want to be sikhs and want the sikh identity to be left alone and not interfered with. It seems they want to avoid the assimilation into the "great ocean of hinduism."

It also appears that many demands are punjabi demands, which includes our unhelpful hindu brothers and sisters. River waters, electricity, punjabi language status, punjabi capital of chandigarh etc etc.

ok so sikhs in punjab don't want khalistan. i think when the state kills off 100,000 or so terrorists which did want khalistan, it makes you wonder. Were all 100,000 terrorists? That sure was a lot of khalistanis. I mean a hundred thousand or so armed sikhs who supposedly died for a khalistan? I mean yeah there are always the crazy fundamentalist types, but geez, that's a lot of people to be fighting an unpopular struggle for a sikh homeland...maybe the khalistan movement WAS popular and it was crushed, or even SILENCED?

i don't know as i'm not an expert. But it seems many scholars here on this site have taken an unbiased plebiscite in the state of Punjab on what the sikhs' national aspirations are. What also is interesting is that not a single demand of the sikhs has been addressed since partition so it makes you wonder if no demands have been met, what the heck did sikhs fight for in the 80s? How did the fight just end without any compromise?

The struggle for independence from Britain saw thousands of sikhs killed and jailed. But how did an "unpopular" sikh movement in the 80s and 90s lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and jailings? A movement three times or more stronger than the independence movement from Britain sure seems to boggle the mind.

Even more surprising is that the same sikhs who say the khalsa is borderless and never should fight for a sovereign homeland defend the creation and borders of Hindustan tooth and nail. why the hypocrisy? What is India's need for a piece of land? Why did sikhs fight the British for a piece of land? The same Sikhs who freed India, today are criticized for something they have been doing throughout history? Is it that the same gurbaani and khalsa heritage that was used to inspire the creation of India is no longer valid for the creation of a sikh homeland? why does bharat talk about sikh heritage when its time to defend India, but when Sikhs dream of a little home, then all traditions are not valid and some cry blasphemy? Why the hypocrisy? Is it that we are being used, being manipulated?

These questions need answers. I have yet to hear any.

I don't think anyone has taken a real unbiased look at the psyche of the sikh nation then and at present. The people fought for something. They died. They got nothing. Did the demands die with the dead?

It seems some scholars think so. I don't think so.

peace.

[hawk13]

Gurfateh, Brother you have chosen to ignore just about every single point I have made and venture off on your own tangents. Until you can reply to or address the evident problems (such as people of Punjab don’t actually want Khalistan, lack of scriptural support etc) your ideology and theory on the creation of Khalistan is nothing more than a fantastically inelegant farce.

You speak of the Khalsa being a Nation and always having been one – you are aware that the idea and concept of nation and nationalism (which you seem obsessed with) came around in the 1770s yeah? And unless I am incorrect the Khalsa existed many years before that. Although everyone may have slightly different ideas of ‘nationalism’ – it is nothing to do with the Khalsa!!! There is nothing spiritual or religious in nationalism – it is pure tribalism, and as Albert Einstein put it…. ‘Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind’’. The primary purpose of the nation is to fulfil the psychological and sociological needs of mass to have human company. Also, for the love of God if you are going to use the term nation, at least differentiate between the term ‘state’ and ‘nation’ – they are not interchangeable!!!

Your serious limitation of the Khalsa is nothing short of uneducated blasphemy – Khalsa will rule the world, why do you seek sovereignty over a small piece of land that the occupants don’t want you rule? I believe such forms of government would be known as tyrannical dictatorship and more along the lines of the Taliban. In your opinion can I ask what notion of Nationalism does the Khalsa subscribe to? A few examples from history for you to choose from include: Liberal, Conservative, Extreme, Anti-Colonial, Expansionist… also you speak of the ‘revival of multinationhood’, the use of the word revival implies that it had previously existed – exactly what planet was that in?

I see you have great faith in the UN who are often believed to be obsolete in the world of International Affairs. If a State like USA can completely defy it do you not think India can? The weak are subject to UN Laws, the powerful do as they wish in matters relating to self interest – as harsh as it sounds, that’s International Politics for you. I think the recent Punjab election shows that it is highly unlikely you will have any legitimate political victory any time soon – and as there doesn’t actually seem to be any active paramilitary Sikhs fighting in Punjab – military victory also seems a bit plausible.

I do not doubt that Khalsa Raj will happen, nor do I doubt that Maharaj is capable of doing anything. However you are entirely making up Khalsa Raj as how your imagination sees fit, letting your mind run wild and believing things will happen and work out like they do in the movies – which again begs the question if you have actually read any old sources (Gurbani or historical) relating to Khalsa Raaj.

I have at no point claimed to be an expert in anything… your making that up, however I agree I could sort my ego out a bit, I just found your posts too funny and could not resist. However as for calling me a slave, I find it rather ironic considering that with the ‘freedom’ you want to gain from India you then want enslave your self to Western Ideals. After creating a new state you will join with the International System, in line with the Westphalia Principles and subject to the definition of a ‘State’ – which of course was created by powerful states in order to make it easier for them to rule. Even although your warships and fighter jets (which is presume will just fall out of the sky with pilots) will give you a false sense of security. Oh and of course the cherry on top of the farcical cake is the fact that what you want to do and claim what will happen is entirely out with Sikhi and the Khalsa. What you have written, where is anything even remotely similar to what you are saying written in Sikh Scriptures or mentioned in history?

P.S. Please write clearly properly and in an educated manner. Your poor spelling, almost non existent grammar and random use of caps makes it difficult to comprehend exactly what you are trying to say a lot of times.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA , WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH, Dear brother , what u say that cocept of nationalism comes in 1777, very fanstastic concept of sikh nationalism started with the BIRTH OF GURU NANAK DEV JI WHO USED THE TERM HALIMI RAJ OR TRUE WELFARE STATE I AM WRITING IN CAPS FOR UR UNDERSTANDING .U can read my eariler posts ,from where the cocept of BEGUMPURA COMES FROM THE GURU GRANTH SHAIB from BHAGAT RAVIDASS BANI. Our guiding force is GURU GRANTH and GURU PANTH ur european nationalism may be simple tribalism cocept of nationalism started with GURU NANAK DEV JI GURU GOBIND SINGH MADE THE COMPLETE SYSTEM. For example from where Hindu PERSONAL LAW CAME its basics came from the old hindu texts and Indian constitutional preample and directive principles are from old texts also other parts have been taken from other sources what I MEAN TO SAY WE NEED CODIFICATION FROM GURBANI. U read the book CRITICAL MASS BY W.E WILLIAMS and read SIPRI DETAILS u claims to be an expert on politics and economics u r ignorant about defacto recognition and dejure one . USA never rejected the UNO totaly. U IGNORE what mild sanctions did to India after 1998 nuclear tests their leaders started licking shoes of big powers and gave economic facilities on their terms. U compare we KHALISTANIS with TALIBAN what about RSS and others fanatic hindu bodies WHO R HOLDING ARMS TRAINING CAMPS IN PUNJAB AND ELSEWHERE THESE SEEMS TO BE GREAT PEOPLE. These hindu groups propagate about finishing off other religions these seem to u nationalist people they r creating private armies . U SAY THERE IS NO SIKH MILATARY ACTIVITY, SIKH FREEDOM FIGHTERS WILL NOT TAKE PERMISSION FROM YOU AND ME.If raising regular sikh army seems unrealistic to u. u have example in 1989 as per CRITICAL MASS REPORTS A REPORTER DID MANAGE TO GET 2 HYDROGEN BOMBS FROM RUSSIAN FORCES FOR 1 MILLION DOLLARS, multinnations were in existence in early medival times for example BRITAIN HAS NORTH AND SOUTH PARTS NAME ENGLAND CAME FROM THE TERM ANGLES TRIBE. People like u have devopled the habit of living in genocide u read the definition of GENOCIDE VARIOUS STEPS IN GENOCIDE. We KHALSA R A MILATARY BROTHERHOOD WITH ALL PROPERTIES OF WELFARE STATE. During sikhrule no genocide took place even during medival times u r harping about the EUROPEAN NATIONALISM DURING 100 YEARS WAR WITH MUSLIMS IN MEDIVAL TIMES AND DURING COLONISATION AND AT TIME OF WORLD WARS THEY KILLED CRORES OF PEOPLE. Since the FIRST MARTYDOM OF GURU ARJUN DEV JI WE HAVE LOST MILLIONS IN VARIOUS GENOCIDES INCLUDING FAMILIES OF OUR BELOVED GURUS. GURU HARGOBIND JI FOR THE FIRST TIME FELT THERE IS NEED OF MILITARILISATION OF SIKHS AND CREATED A POLITICAL AUTHORITY IN SHAPE OF AKAL TAKHT SHAIB GURU GOBIND SINGH JI CONVERTED KHALSA INTO A COMPLETE NATION AND MILATARY BROTHERHOOD. We need that system of our GURU the most urgently in modern times for survival for this creation of modern armed forces is the need of hour. I humbly accecpt ur challenge of making me look silly perhaps you do not know about the SANTA AND BANTA JOKES FROM WHERE THESE ORIGINATED who were these great

sikhs. PS donot pull my leg i still consisder myself a student a humble sevak but by pulling down others u gets pulling down more control ur ego on the pretext of liberlisation u seems the habit of living under slavery u r in still learning process. Try to learn more.

[hawk13]

DEAR CHANDERCHOOR SINGH JI, Creation of army is not my idea that idea was of GURU JIS MY FORFATHERS FOUGHT AGAINIST MUGHALS AND ENGLISH SUCCESSFULLY at the GURU JI times idea of war and army seemed unrealistic to timid socalled sikhs like you . If armed struggle could return to KASHMIR after 24 years why it could happen in our case?Learn to live with selfrespect and die with same . U can not fight the war with arguements with ifs and buts but to strike at the enemy with full force . Please do not mind.I do not want to demean you.