The Use Of Chairs In Guru Ji's Darbar

[AK-47]

Bundha, do you know wat randips on about when he says 'mahants removed chairs from amritsar'?

and also was there ever an occasion during the lives of the 10 gurus that maharajh had any of the sangat sit on chairs or higher then other sangat? Im sure elderly and disabled people visited maharajh too, in fact there are many stories we read about disabled people visiting maharajh. But what was the deal then?

[Bundha]

AK-47 ji , you seem to assert that I am for chairs, if you read my post it is quite the contrary.

<<< and also was there ever an occasion during the lives of the 10 gurus that maharajh had any of the sangat sit on chairs or higher then other sangat? >>>

I don't think they did, infact I say that Guru Ji sat with the poor, on the floor.

<<<Im sure elderly and disabled people visited maharajh too, in fact there are many stories we read about disabled people visiting maharajh. But what was the deal then? >>>

In the old days, old and disabled sat on the floor, they were well used to sitting on the floor so although they have were old they could still sit on the floor. . For the disabled they used to dig a hole in the ground and let the sit in this way.

<<'mahants removed chairs from amritsar'>>

AK-47, this Randip person will use all sorts. Remember before the singh sabah movement the Hindus had brought statues of their deities in to Harmindar sahib parkarma, these werethrown out by the Sikh reformists, maybe it is something along these lines.

[AK-47]

bundha, i know you do not agree with chairs, that why i asked you!

I don't think they did, infact I say that Guru Ji sat with the poor, on the floor.

i agree, maharajh did however sit on his takath, (guru har gobind sahib ji) im not sure whether guru nanak dev ji through to guru arjan dev ji also sat on a throne/palki, but im pretty sure the guru sahibs's after 6th pathshah all had palki's that they sat on. I have also heard stories where guru maharajh invited certain gursikhs to sit next to them etc, eg when guru har gobind sahib ji asked one gursikh to recite japji sahib ji da path. but i have never come across maharajh giving different treatment to gursikhs based on age or physical ability.

In the old days, old and disabled sat on the floor, they were well used to sitting on the floor so although they have were old they could still sit on the floor. . For the disabled they used to dig a hole in the ground and let the sit in this way.

this is as i thought, the issue is with our own lack of health and practice which means we have to now bring these things into darbar sahib. if our elders are finding it hard today to sit on the floor, in our future we will have NO chance as most of us only sit on the floor wen we come to the gurdwara and even then for short periods of time. i think this is the point i am stressing. in 30+ years time wen we get older and backs start playing up, many of us may also request seating in darbar sahib ... but where will it stop? randip's idea of having darbars kitted out fully with seats may actually become a reality.

even within the singh sabha movement i have never come across any mention of chairs. however i am open to being fully corrected on this point! idols etc i have heard of, but chairs... no.

hopefully we will never see the day where we have rows of soft sofas and little buttons you can press to order your 'randip's special chicken wings' and a pint of coke while listening to a dj playing special request shabads for the sangat. hey who says sikhs are against progression!

[randip singh]

I suggest you catch a plane to Amritsar, pick up a chair, place it in the middle of the parkarma in Harmander Sahib and put your agenda forward to the Singhs there. Then I suggest you communicate their reaction to the rest of us!

HMM......I see we cannot have reasoned debate.

I suggest you realise we live in England and not in India.

[randip singh]

hopefully we will never see the day where we have rows of soft sofas and little buttons you can press to order your 'randip's special chicken wings' and a pint of coke while listening to a dj playing special request shabads for the sangat. hey who says sikhs are against progression!

Just the kind of comment I expect from you.

When will you grow up or will you be bitter and twisted your entire life?

[MiriPiri]

Bhaio, in the days of old, only the rich, the privileged, the high sat on chairs/thrones. All rajay had thrones and the poor unfortunates sat on the floor.

Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji sat with the poor, not on high thrones with the rich, the royalty, but with the poor common person. This is where true sadh sangat can be found.

But alas there are those who will have us move away from Gurmat and plonk us on pews.

Bundha Ji, thank you for knowledgable post. A simple explaination is all that was required.

In this day and age, even the poor sit on chairs, so I think in the modern age, we could sit on chairs, with Maharaj high above. However, out of the tens of millions of our congreation, maybe only a few thousand NEED charis, so a mass move towards chairs is unnecessary. I think there should be a row of chairs at the back of the hall, spread out so people sit on the floor between people to stop them chattering, then everyone can be happy.

There we go, end of discussion, end of personal insults. I find it disturbing how many angry young Sikhs there are. I am no better than an insect really, but we should always remember (when our emotions start taking over us) how the Gurus would have acted towards people - with respect or disrespect?

[randip singh]

Bundha Ji, thank you for knowledgable post. A simple explaination is all that was required.

In this day and age, even the poor sit on chairs, so I think in the modern age, we could sit on chairs, with Maharaj high above. However, out of the tens of millions of our congreation, maybe only a few thousand NEED charis, so a mass move towards chairs is unnecessary. I think there should be a row of chairs at the back of the hall, spread out so people sit on the floor between people to stop them chattering, then everyone can be happy.

There we go, end of discussion, end of personal insults. I find it disturbing how many angry young Sikhs there are. I am no better than an insect really, but we should always remember (when our emotions start taking over us) how the Gurus would have acted towards people - with respect or disrespect?

MiriPiri you are like a breath of fresh air.

We may not agree but we are able at least to have discouse in a mature and sensible manner.

Once again many thanks.

[B4ND4]

HMM......I see we cannot have reasoned debate.

Reasoned debate :lol: on an absurd topic?? The points you have given lack substance randip uncle.

[Bundha]

<<< agree, maharajh did however sit on his takath, (guru har gobind sahib ji) im not sure whether guru nanak dev ji through to guru arjan dev ji also sat on a throne/palki, but im pretty sure the guru sahibs's after 6th pathshah all had palki's that they sat on.>>>

Bhaji, you cannot compare Guru Sahib Ji with us. Yes Guru Ji sat on takhat, Akal Takhat, Guru Ji also wore a kalgi, and had chaur done over them, we should not ask for the same. I think there are people who first need to raise their avasta (me included) and then come to the table, else we just get these ridiculous motions being put forward. Guru RamDas ji contructed the Harmindar Sahib, with the help of Baba Buddha Ji and Bhai Gurdas Ji, chairs existed in those times, if they wanted chairs then, then they would have done so. As Sikhs we sit on the floor, as neemay as can be infront of the Almighty, only through nimanai actions can we find His path Next we shall be saying that due to back problems we shouldn't be bending down and do mutha take, might as well give a curte nod of the head and off we go ......... is this what we are going to reduce our Guru Mahara Ji to?

For god sake people, are we going to sit in rows of chairs like in a bloomin cinema or a conference while we are in Darbar Sahib, get real !

Again, try putting this motion of rows of chairs in Darbar Sahib infront of a Chardi Kala Khalsa and you will get the correct answer................................

[AK-47]

When will you grow up or will you be bitter and twisted your entire life?

its all that sitting down on the floor, thats why im all twisted! If only i had a nice comfy chair ... hmm ... lol

In this day and age, even the poor sit on chairs, so I think in the modern age, we could sit on chairs, with Maharaj high above. However, out of the tens of millions of our congreation, maybe only a few thousand NEED charis, so a mass move towards chairs is unnecessary.

Brother this is my point. Only a small number may NEED them, but once it becomes acceptable, how many will REQUEST them? With guru jis kirpa, only those who really really really need them will ask, BUT how do you decide who needs one and who doesnt? While today it is a few thousand, in a few years time, with worsening health (no practice at sitting down) and worsening attitudes (sitting on the floor is a tradition from a backward period of poverty - i drive a £45,000 car why should i sit on the floor) this number will grow and grow.

Look at langar halls, the tables and chairs are MEANT to be for people who NEED them, i.e. elderly and disabled. But are they the only ones to use them? NO.

By introducing chairs into darbar sahibs, the same will happen as that which happens in langar halls up and down the country. As such, careful thought needs to be given to the conequences of ACCEPTING chairs in darbar sahibs, because if afterwards if it becomes the norm, we will have noone else to blame but ourselves.

And bundha i agree with you. :lol: However as i said, floods start with a trickle, lets hope this isnt the case here.