The Use Of Chairs In Guru Ji's Darbar

[anjaan]

the chair used by the Bibi ji is no biggie, for obvious reasons, also 'cus i'm pretty sure that in that particular divaan hall Maharaj's Takht is on a much higher level than that chair, even so, if an elder or physically challenged person cannot do without it, who are we to deny them sangat and Guru ji's darshan!! vaheguru

[AK-47]

The main problem with this issue is who is 'allowed' to use chairs and who isnt. This then leads to who will govern or control the use of chairs in any given darbar sahib.

Again i repeat for the use of severely disabled people, MOST people will agree that some facility should be made. However, others will say this should be extended to the elderly who cannot sit properly on the floor due to their age. But then at the same time we are all seemingly happy to deny 'goreh' chair privaleges, even though they will also have difficulty sitting on the floor albeit for a different reason.

At that particular gurdwara sahib, i have often seen elderly people come in mutha tekh as best they can (often they cant bend over enough so they do the best they can) and then go back out and sit on a chair just outside the darbar near the entrance. Obviously there are also those (women, i have never seen men doing this and there are equally as many men who are elderly/disabled who sit in the darbar on the floor) who bring chairs in from outside to sit on in the darbar as well.

Unfortunetly you can also see some of the bibian having a good old natter on their chairs (and equally on the floor) during akhand paths and other programmes!! Even the poor granthi/kathavachaks get tired of asking them to be quiet. So not all the people who sit on chairs are on hugely high levels and neither neccesarily are those who sit on the floor, so we cant really talk about avastha's like that.

The issue i have is that this may slowly grow and grow. More and more people will start asking for chairs or start taking them in, and nobody will have the 'right' to say no you cant becuase, if someone else is doing it, why cant they. If we say its cus they are elderly or have back issues, what will you say when the person says well i also have back probelms, and unless you let me sit on a chair i cant sit inside. Will we then say fine take the chair in, or do we 'deny them darsahn of maharajh'?

I know this is a sensative topic, and yes i also have elderly and disabled members of my own family, however at some stage people will need to look at this, because as that guy randip has already said some places in delhi already have seated areas in the darbar sahib! What can we say when some bright spark committee here decides that for sake of modernity and to make it 'easier' for the sangat they are going to set up benches etc? Depending on how it goes it could be a potential minefield. I dunno maybe im being overdramatic, but from personal experience, it aint fun arguing with committee's and the old men and women at the gurdwara, They dont care about what you have to say lol and they will rip into your mother and sister like it aint even funny!! So jus a word of caution really, establish your boundries and decide on the rules, if you dont then the day some 16 year old complains that he needs a chair, you will be stuck!!

ps be careful about these masands like randip who seem to think that everyone apart from those who agree with him are evil-bumpkin-fanatic-radicals! if you ever see a bloke sitting in a leather reclining chair with a foot rest in the darbar.... it might be him!! Power to modernity hey!!!

[randip singh]

What I propose is a sensible debate on this issue. I have never agreed with the banning of chairs in Gurudwara's. It is just plain ridiculous.

My thinking is if we had chairs (fixed in rows) in the Darbar Hall with the Guru Granth Sahib ji raised t a higher level the advantages would be:

1) People's feet would point downwards and not towards Bir.

2) Would be more comfortable and people will be less likely to figit and disturb the proceedings.

3) Will control numbers seated in a hall from a health and safety point of view and fireregulations.

4) Would help disabled and elderly people.

5) Would ensure everyone is facing the stage where SGGS ji is.

6) Stop people congregating in little groups and talking. More difficult when person you want to talk to is two people away in a row.

7) People less likely to leave Darbaar Hall and listen to paath. To get up would mean disturbing people in row.

Disadvantages

1) People may use them as weapons when fights break out at Gurudwara's :lol:

2) Expensive to put in chairs and of adequate comfort.

Any other comments?

[Sarbloh]

I suggest you catch a plane to Amritsar, pick up a chair, place it in the middle of the parkarma in Harmander Sahib and put your agenda forward to the Singhs there. Then I suggest you communicate their reaction to the rest of us!

[I humbly bow]

I suggest you catch a plane to Amritsar, pick up a chair, place it in the middle of the parkarma in Harmander Sahib and put your agenda forward to the Singhs there. Then I suggest you communicate their reaction to the rest of us!

lol :lol:

[AK-47]

I suggest you catch a plane to Amritsar, pick up a chair, place it in the middle of the parkarma in Harmander Sahib and put your agenda forward to the Singhs there. Then I suggest you communicate their reaction to the rest of us!

But would it be ok if he was elderly ... lol

This is the problem you see ... a trickle can lead to a flood. We dont have a real answer/stance on this issue so we are unprepared for when people like him make these type of suggestions.

Personally i have never heard of chairs in the darbar sahib (prior to the last few years) so as to when chairs where banned.. please can someone elaborate?

As ever, it seems it is us western sikhs with our all knowing all great knowledge and understanding of sikhi and humanity that have started these things.

Despite randips assertions, im sure that if maharajh had wanted something as simple as chairs in the darbar sahib they would have been made. if maharajh could make something as magnificent as darbar sahib and the sarovar, maharajh made whole cities and fortresses, he made takhats and bungeh, and yet we seem to think he would have been unable to get a few carpenters to knock together a few benches/chairs. :lol:

[Heera Singh]

What I propose is a sensible debate on this issue. I have never agreed with the banning of chairs in Gurudwara's. It is just plain ridiculous.

My thinking is if we had chairs (fixed in rows) in the Darbar Hall with the Guru Granth Sahib ji raised t a higher level the advantages would be:

1) People's feet would point downwards and not towards Bir.

2) Would be more comfortable and people will be less likely to figit and disturb the proceedings.

3) Will control numbers seated in a hall from a health and safety point of view and fireregulations.

4) Would help disabled and elderly people.

5) Would ensure everyone is facing the stage where SGGS ji is.

6) Stop people congregating in little groups and talking. More difficult when person you want to talk to is two people away in a row.

7) People less likely to leave Darbaar Hall and listen to paath. To get up would mean disturbing people in row.

Disadvantages

1) People may use them as weapons when fights break out at Gurudwara's :lol:

2) Expensive to put in chairs and of adequate comfort.

Any other comments?

1... what if some people decided to put their feet up on the char in front of them if nobody was sittin there? since ur so worried bout 'comfort'...

2.. sitting on a chair for 3 hours as opposed to sitting on the ground... umm.. ground is a LOT more comfortable!

3... in case of 'fire'... it would be a lot more difficult for everybody run out of the building with hundreds of chairs in their way... half the people would probably fall or trip over chairs... and more chances of them gettin injured...

4... i actually agree with that... but the whole hall shouldn't have chairs.. only those who really NEED it..

5... even though their 'body' might be facing Guru Sahib, doesn't mean their face will... most of the time people's body's are facing guru sahib, but their talkin to the person next to them.. so even though their body is facing Guru Sahib, their focus isn't in that direction anyway..

6... not necessarily tru... people would plan it so they sit together... same thing happens at churches... i went to a catholic school at one point and durin their mass people ALWAYZ interrupted with their chatter from all sides...

7... again.. not necessarily tru...

ur avoiding the point.. u think by people sittin on chairs that all of a sudden they'll start to listen to Bani and Simran at Gurughar? why don't we do some parchaar and help people realise the true message of Bani and the true beauty of Bani... u don't think if Guru Sahibs wanted chairs in darbar hall, that they would have started with them?

the problem isn't 'comfort'... its that people don't have interest in bani... lets start with that..

and ur point #2 on disadvantages contradicts your whole 'comfort' point...

[JustME]

I suggest you catch a plane to Amritsar, pick up a chair, place it in the middle of the parkarma in Harmander Sahib and put your agenda forward to the Singhs there. Then I suggest you communicate their reaction to the rest of us!

:lol:

dont forget the granny with the zimmorframe.......she'll strengthen ur case

[B4ND4]

I am with randip uncle on this one :lol: but randip uncle chairs won't provide real comfort. I say we should put king size manje in there, jado jyada thak gaye we can always have a lil nap before doing chaur di seva

[Bundha]

Bhaio, in the days of old, only the rich, the privileged, the high sat on chairs/thrones. All rajay had thrones and the poor unfortunates sat on the floor.

Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji sat with the poor, not on high thrones with the rich, the royalty, but with the poor common person. This is where true sadh sangat can be found.

But alas there are those who will have us move away from Gurmat and plonk us on pews.