Vedanti Takes Stupidity To Another Level!

[JustME]

Mona Sikhs have made good reputation for themselves. The average joe on teh street who mixes with them learns that Sikhs are not bigots and human too. Also we all know the majority of fighters of SIkh background in the UK who stood up against the NF and the Islamists were monay - whilst the others were hiding away and in denial of what was going on

well an amritdhari can say exactly the same thing: -

let me reverse ur quote there: -

Amritdharis have made good reputation for the khalsa panth. The average mohna on teh street who mixes with them learns that AMRITDHARIS are not bigots and human too. Also we all know there have been thousands of amritdhari fighters gave their lives to defend their faith, examples are many.

u see my brother when are fighting the same battle lets not quarrle amongst ourselves and try and unite as our Guru intended the sikhs to......

[B4ND4]

[dalsingh101]

How would you feel with the statement that the Sikh panth right now is made up of people who are practising Sikhs and those who are of Sikh descent.

All I feel I can say for certain is that it looks like challenging times are ahead of us globally. Our institutes are as corrupt as can be and it is so pathetic that the Sikh people who today have inherited the institutes that were originally meant to steer Sikhs and give places of worship back to Sikhs from mahants are now just as bad the mahants they removed. What the hell! I think an underlying feature of Sikhism that marked it out from other religions was open mindedness. This is what made so many people love Guru Nanak from all backgrounds. When we start to narrow our visions, it is over. This however isn't an excuse for some <banned word filter activated> kurian to run of with a musla/gora. Sikh men will be pretty much forced to marry out of the panth because of the actions of <banned word filter activated> kurian and <banned word filter activated> "sianay" who abort female kurian. The situation is very touchy.

I know that God forbid, if the tutti hits the fan, it is highly likely that a small percentage of people (in the UK at least) of Sikh descent will stand up bravely and combat issues that we face because such people have been doing so consistently in the past. I also know it is likely that more conservative people in the panth will at first insult them for this and then 10/15 years later be singing the same song. I think this is mainly because the lax ones have more ears on the ground and have a better idea of what is going on out there, but because of the strict sangat kept by certain people they often have little idea of this and can have false impressions of the relative position of Sikhs to other communities.

Whatever we argue about, for better or for worse our destinies are tied together in some crazy way. Lets see what happens. I'm just saying don't wait for a miracle. What happens is largely in our own hands.

Also Mehtab: Why do you think Akali Phoola Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa submitted to M. Ranjit's rule and didn't cast him aside as a "manmukh"?

[Mehtab Singh]

Why do you think Akali Phoola Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa submitted to M. Ranjit's rule and didn't cast him aside as a "manmukh"?

Akali Phoola Singh ji did have Raja Ranjit Singh pesh at Akal Takht because he married a Muslim woman. A lot of info is not known, missing or kept concealed about what went on at that point of time (this I know from people who've been researching Sikh history after the Misl period from unbiased sources). So he was not totally "free" to do whatever, and was still subject to Sikhi rules.

[dalsingh101]

Why do you think Akali Phoola Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa submitted to M. Ranjit's rule and didn't cast him aside as a "manmukh"?

Akali Phoola Singh ji did have Raja Ranjit Singh pesh at Akal Takht because he married a Muslim woman. A lot of info is not known, missing or kept concealed about what went on at that point of time (this I know from people who've been researching Sikh history after the Misl period from unbiased sources). So he was not totally "free" to do whatever, and was still subject to Sikhi rules.

I think you are not being honest or don't know the truth. M. Ranjit Singh still slagged about till the end of his days and kept his "Muslim" wife who later caused a storm by converting a servant. So no, he very loosely followed Sikhi rules all his life.

Why did people accept him and not say "get lost - your a proper manmukh"? This includes almost the entire strict amritdharis? I'd be interested in people's opinion on this.

(BTW, I'm not advocating that type of behaviour but driving home a point.)

[Mehtab Singh]

I think you are not being honest or don't know the truth. M. Ranjit Singh still slagged about till the end of his days and kept his "Muslim" wife who later caused a storm by converting a servant. So no, he very loosely followed Sikhi rules all his life.

Why did people accept him and not say "get lost - your a proper manmukh"? This includes almost the entire strict amritdharis? I'd be interested in people's opinion on this.

(BTW, I'm not advocating that type of behaviour but driving home a point.)

Why would I personally feel the need to hide anything? Anything exposed or hidden about Ranjit Singh isn't going to boost or harm Sikhi today. From what I know, he was not above the law given by Sikhi. There are loads of conflicting sources about history from that period, and depending on what you read and trust will shape your impression about Ranjit Singh.

Here is some info for you...

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-history/...a-singh-ji.html

Loss of Faith in the Maharaja

The internal political policy pursued by Maharaja Ranjeet Singh went against Sikh interests. Major points of differences were that the Maharaja had:

1. Delegated too much authority of the government to Dogras who were insincere and disloyal to the Sikhs.

2. Appointed relatives of his cronies to important posts instead of selecting competent persons.

3. Developed misunderstanding with his sons by listening to the misinformation given by the Dogras.

Note: Later, it was found that Akali Ji was right and justified in asking the Maharaja not to place all his confidence in the Dogras alone. The Dogras had a secret understanding with the British, who had already taken control over much of India. The Dogras caused the downfall of the Sikh Raj. They were made the rajas of Kashmir as a reward for helping the British infiltrate the Sikh raj. The Dogras also informed the Kabul regime about the Sikh army and they planned the murder of the hero of the Sikh raj, Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa, who was considered a terror by the Afghans and Pathans.

When Akali Phoola Singh Ji went to discuss domestic policies of the government with Maharaja Ranjeet Singh, the Dogras did not allow the meeting to take place. Akali Ji forced his entry into the palace and was warmly received by the Maharaja. Showing his hospitality, the Maharaja offered Akali Ji a splendid meal. Akali Ji declined his offer stating that unless the Maharaja changed his policies, and realized his own entrapment by the Dogras, this was to be their last meeting. After delivering this message to the Maharaja, Akali Ji left for Anandpur Sahib.

The Prince of Jind state (Jind was then part of the British Raj, now a part of the Haryana state of India.) developed differences with the British raj. He moved to Anandpur Sahib and took protection under Akali Ji. The British desired the Prince to be handed over to them. They approached the Maharaja when Akali Ji refused to surrender him to them. The Dogras misinformed and misguided the Maharaja and accused Akali Ji of creating enmity between the British and the Sikh raj. The army at Phillaur was, therefore, instructed to arrest Akali Phoola Singh. The army, however, declined to obey the Maharaja recognizing that Akali Ji was the holiest man amongst the Sikhs.

The British also tried to capture Akali Ji by ordering the Nawab of Malerkotla and Raja Jaswant to attack Anandpur Sahib and arrest Akali Ji along with the Prince of Jind. Both of them knew of Phoola Singh's goodness and greatness. They also endorsed his stand and refused to cooperate with the British. Finally, Maharaja Ranjeet Singh thought of another plan to get Akali Ji on his side. He sent Baba Sahib Singh Bedi, a close friend of Akali Phoola Singh, to escort him with honor to Amritsar where a spectacular welcome was arranged by the Maharaja. The two were finally reconciled. Unfortunately, the Maharaja did not take advantage of his advice to keep the Dogras away from the helm of administration.

So it is clear that Akali Phoola Singh ji and Ranjit Singh were, for a small amount of time, not on real good terms because of Ranjit Singh's policies.

Some more...

http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-history/...haram-kaur.html

Rulers have to engage in various deceitful activities to strengthen their power base. To avoid embarrassment, such activities are commonly referred to as politics. Politics is simply a convenient acronym for deceitful activities. When Maharaja Ranjit Singh took control of the city of Lahore, he too used such tactics to bring all neighboring rulers, big and small, under his control. He used every conceivable means to successfully accomplish his vision. The Bhangi and Ramgariha Sardars (Rulers) were his strongest opposition. Ranjit Singh wanted to badly crush them and soon. The opposition leader, Sahib Singh Bhangi, was ruling Gujarat at the time.

Sardar Dal Singh was the ruler of Akalgadh. Maharaja Ranjit Singh's father, Sardar Maha Singh, had conquered Akalgadh and established Sardar Dal Singh as its ruler. However, now Sardar Dal Singh was making overtures of self-independence. He even participated in opposition against Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The validity and correctness of his stance can not be justified, but it served as a reason enough for Maharaja Ranjit Singh's decision to establish control over the region.

However, Maharaja Ranjit Singh could not pick up enough courage to attack Sardar Dal Singh. He was afraid that Sardar Dal Singh would seek assistance from the opposition leaders, thus making his task even more difficult. Therefore, he sought the diplomatic route and initiated a web of deceit and deception. Sardar Dal Singh was sent an invitation, stating, "Dear friend, please come to Lahore. I need to discuss some important issues with you." Sardar Dal Singh reached Lahore based on this invitation, but Maharaja Ranjit Singh had something else in mind for him. Sardar Dal Singh was detained in Lahore fort while Maharaja himself left with a heavy force to conquer Akalgadh.

With Sardar Dal Singh neutralized, Maharaja Ranjit Singh was now sure that no one will oppose him and that he will be able to move into the city with open doors. He was very happy with his deceitful tactic and confident of his success. When Maharaja Ranjit Singh left Lahore for Akalgadh, he thought that the citizens of Akalgadh would come out in large numbers to welcome him. Indeed, he was welcomed but not with flowers and garlands but with cannon fire. This welcome spoiled his whole scheme and caused him serious anguish.

When Sardar Dal Singh's young spouse, Sardarni Dharam Kaur, learned of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's deceitful tactics resulting in imprisonment of her husband and his moves to capture the city, she was filled with anger. She immediately decided to protect her independence and honor at any cost. As the attacking forces edged closer to town, she closed the doors of Akalgadh fort and started pounding them with cannon fire. Maharaja sent a demanding message, saying, "empty the fort, else your husband's life will not be spared."

Sardarni Dharam Kaur responded "You are deceitful. Why should I listen to you, my husband listened to you and you imprisoned him! I will avenge my husband's dishonor even if this means both of us die."

Maharaja was quite shaken by this response. What could he do? He put the Akalgadh fort under seize. Several months passed by, but the fort couldn't be captured. Sardarni Dharam Kaur was fighting bravely. From time to time, she would come out of the fort with a few brave soldiers for surprise attacks. Causing serious casualties among the royal forces they would disappear back into the fort with lightening speed. Her surprise attacks were causing havoc among the royal forces.

It was nighfall and Maharaja was reviewing the battle status with his Generals (Sardars) : Sardar Hari Singh Naluya, Sardar Nihal Singh Attariwalla and a few others. They had attacked Akalgadh expecting no resistance and instead it had turned into a long seize. Sardarni Dharam Kaur's frequent surprise attacks were forcing him to abandon the seize. They desperately wanted to abandon the seize but now the seize did not want to abandon them. Additionally, they would lose the respect of Lahore if they returned empty handed.

Suddenly, there was there was the sound of fighting outside. Sardarni Dharam Kaur had thrown another surprise attack. She was heading towards the Maharaja's tent and was killing many soldiers along the way. The Maharaja and the Sardars quickly drew their weapons and raced outside. Sardarni Dharam Kaur looked down at them from horseback, with a blood-red sword raised in her hand she looked straight into the Maharajas eyes - "It's time to talk Ranjit Singh!"

"Ranjit Singh, you deceitfully arrested my husband, thinking no one else would challenge you. You made a grave mistake. I have been blessed with same 'khanda-batta-da-amrit' of Guru Gobind Singh Jee that you have. Each Khalsa values independence and honor. So you have no right to steal it from us. Abandon the seize and leave by tomorrow, otherwise you will find yourself in a major war.".........

What I gather is that Ranjit Singh was "probably" Amritdhari to begin with. Remember he was in a Misl, so it is very likely that he was Amritdhati. Maybe S1ngh or Bijla Singh would know better. There are couple of other threads on Ranjit Singh so you could check them out as well. But coming back to this, it is likely that he was Amritdhari and so that is the reason he wasn't looked upon as manmukh by Akali Phoola Singh ji and Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa. Now I am only speculating that, not proposing. Some historic accounts also claim he violated the rehits of Sikhi later on. But by then Sikhs were caught up in wars from all 4 sides with opponents and Ranjit Singh died as they were coming to a close. So this explains why he wasn't taken off the throne as a leader was needed and guess what, he was the only one around. Akali Phoola Singh ji and Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa were also away fighting battles and Ranjit Singh was the only on who could hold things together from the center. This hopefully answers your querry about why he wasn't "condemned" as a manmukh. And like I said, S1ngh and Bijla Singh would know better so they would be in a better position to answer.

[dalsingh101]

I don't need Bijla or anyone to answer. I can do my own research.

But you have answered my question and have come to the same conclusion as me. He was simply the best and only man capable of the job and the need of the moment and so they prudently allowed him to get on with it and actually physically supported him. With all of the Amritdharis around they didn't find one with the intelligence, strategic thinking and nerve he had. In his lifetime this proved to be a smart move because it gave Sikhs a Kingdom and security (which evaporated with his death.)

Yes he took Amrit like everyone in those days but he blatantly bent the rules. For the greater good of the general population the strict religious Sikhs TOLERATED this. The fact that even today we still talk of him and discuss him shows he was a great man also he changed history by slapping the pathans/afghans about and stopping invasions from Islamic lands. He also was shrewd enough to be open minded to change and heavily Europeanised the Khalsa (as in Khalsa army fighting tactics). This made the SIkhs give the British such a tough fight after his death that Sikhs reputation as warriors was confirmed by the toughest sneaky bascaads of the time (English). Also everything you said about his flaws is also true (by the way Akali Phoola Singh wanted to do a surprise raid on a British cantonment in Ludhiana and kill all the British soldiers but was prevented by the Maharajah.)

So the final point to all Amritdharis is:

In future, the best leader for us may not be someone like yourselves! Be prepared for that if that is the case and remember it will not be a new thing - if it does need to happen.

[TeriSharan.]

THE BHAGATS ALL MET GURU SAHIB AND HAD AMRIT OF THEM!!

[Mehtab Singh]

Alot of what you said is alrite. I don't disagree with most of it. But whatever happens in future is already destined. We had a leader like Sant Baba Jarnail Singh Jee Khalsa Bhindranwale who didn't compromise Gurmat a single bit. So I am not sure if in future we would have to suffice with a leader (in terms of Gurmat and Gursikhi) like Ranjit Singh, although a strategist like him would be an asset and a tool to bend mighty powers before the Khalsa, rather than bending the rehits of Sikhi. A Sikh who doesn't bow in the face of the worst opposition, chaos and turmoil, yet holds firmly to Gurujee makes the entire world bow before him/her. We would have to wait and find out. My closing point being, its not necessary to have an able leader who is skilled but compromises rehit, however if thats what Gurujee has planned for us, we can't help it. But we can have faith that He will bless with a rehitvaan Gurmukh as panth sewadaar (not leader, as our sole leader is only and only Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee).

[OhTwadi]

this thread went from jammu to kerla in 24 hours