Did The Gurus Have Past Lives?

[PAL 07]

Namastang i'm sorry but i have not read any of the above, due to the sheer size of your post (i.m sure many others haven't read it aswell, making your post useless really)

The 23/24 previous avtars were avtaars of Vishnuu not Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Guruji never had anything to do with these avtaars, it is your lack of sikhi that is suggesting Gurus were previoulsy narsingh, krisna etc.........Satguruu were and still are God themselves, Gur Parmesar Eko Jaan (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

However the question of previous lives is still unanswered......I can recall Sant Hardev Singh Lulovale in his katha, saying that Guru Nanak Dev Ji did bhagti for 36 JUGS in his previous life, and Bhai Gurdass Ji who were Brahmgiani also talks about this bhagti of Guru nanak Devji in his Vaars.

I believe Guru and Gurbani were ANAADI ie (before the beginning of time) but i am still confused how does everything fit together because i'm sure it does

[Singh132]

I don't know of any vaar or other place where Bhai Gurdas talks about any past life of Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee.

Namastang,

I fortunately/unfortunately no longer have the patience/time/required effort to enter long debates with anyone so your beliefs are mubaarak to you and mine to me. Just briefly skimming your post though, I noticed a mention about how Gurmat and "Hinduism" share a karm philosophy and you referred to a post I made. To be clear, Gurmat Karam philosophy is totally different. It goes above the then known 3 types of karma from which there was no known escape (because even saatvic karam have a reaction) to the Chautha Pad Satguru jee introduced to the world which breaks free from all karam through naam.

As for Krishna, Narsingh and the Dwarf being avtars of Guru Nanak, I don't have the desire to enter this debate. It seems rather clear to me; 1) There is no nistaaraa (salvation) without Gurmat naam 2) Guru Nanak is the only one who has Gurmat Naam and power to reveal it 3) Only Guru Nanak did in fact reveal Gurmat Naam to the world.

Anyways, I close with the shabad below. It makes clear what the status of Satguru is in relation to the Avtars or Hindu gods.

ਵਡਹੰਸੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਦ ਮੀਠਾ ਲਾਗਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਾਦੁ ਆਇਆ ॥

ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਹਜਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ॥੧॥

ਹਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸਤਗੁਰੂ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥

ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰਗਾਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥

ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਵਰਤੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥

ਕਿਸਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰੂਧਾ ਕਿਤੁ ਲਗਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਗਿਆਨਿ ਰਤੇ ਜੁਗ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਚੂਕੈ ਮੋਹ ਗੁਬਾਰਾ ॥੩॥

ਸਤਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਤਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥

ਸਾਚੈ ਨਾਇ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰਾ ॥੪॥

ਏਕੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਇਕਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ਸਭਨਾ ਦੀਵਾਨੁ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੫॥੫॥

[sikha]

excellent post namstang. As namstang has already written what i wanted to say i am just going to post a few shabads regarding the issue, and afterwards i would like to hear how you would interpret them.

To me Gurmat/Sikhism is not a new religion that fell down from the blue sky out of nowhere in the 15. century, but rather a religion that has its root going back before times of creation.

The Bhatta de sawaiye and vaars of Bhai Gurdass are jewels in understanding sikhism.

The supreme soul/jyot of Satguru Nanak has come earlier:

Sawaiye on Guru Nanak:

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

Mahalla 4:

ਕਵਲ ਨੈਨ ਮਧੁਰ ਬੈਨ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੈਨ ਸੰਗ ਸੋਭ ਕਹਤ ਮਾ ਜਸੋਦ ਜਿਸਹਿ ਦਹੀ ਭਾਤੁ ਖਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

You are lotus-eyed, with sweet speech, exalted and embellished with millions of companions. Mother Yashoda invited You as Krishna to eat the sweet rice.

Gazing upon Your supremely beautiful form, and hearing the musical sounds of Your silver bells tinkling, she was intoxicated with delight.

The form om Narsingha:

ਸੁਥਰ ਚਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਹਿਤ ਭੇਖੁ ਧਰਿਓ ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਨਖ ਬਿਦਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

For the sake of the pure-hearted devotee Prahlaad, You took the form of the man-lion, to tear apart and destroy Harnaakhash with your claws.

ਜਰਮ ਕਰਮ ਮਛ ਕਛ ਹੁਅ ਬਰਾਹ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਕੈ ਕੂਲਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਖੇਲਿਓ ਜਿਨਿ ਗਿੰਦ ਜੀਉ ॥

He took birth in the Incarnations of the Fish, Tortoise and Wild Boar, and played His part. He played games on the banks of the Jamunaa River.

Naam was experienced by the devotees in the past as well, and then with the Gurus it was given to the world in generel:

Sawaye 3 Mahalla:

The three hundred thirty million angels meditate, attached to the Naam; it is enshrined within the minds of the celibates and ascetics.

Bhisham Pitama, the son of the Ganges, meditated on that Naam; his consciousness delighted in the Ambrosial Nectar of the Lord's Feet.

and

Dwelling upon that Immaculate Naam, the nine Yogic masters, Shiva and Sanak and many others have been emancipated

The eighty-four Siddhas, the beings of supernatural spiritual powers, and the Buddhas are imbued with the Naam; it carried Ambreek across the terrifying world-ocean.

[kam1825]

Right the Bhatt Sawaiyai. This always seems to come up on a forum from time to time. Right i will put my two cents in on this thread regarding the translation or viakhiya of the specific part of the text which is being discussed.

I will just post a section which is being discussed which i posted when Javanmard was going on about this topic on Sikhawareness. This is the Arth in the way i have been taught by numerous Sadhu Sants.

" Lastly i have heard the katha for the bhatt sawaiyai, remember the thread were we argued about Guru Nanak Dev Ji being a manifestation (i said incarnation which you correctly pointed out was wrong) of God and that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had infinate powers (Kalaa). Also in that and the steeks of Damdami taksal and harkhowal it states that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not Vishnu but God. Krishan and Ram were Vishnu's avtars and only had 14 and 16 kalaa. Due to you bringing up the Bhatt Sawaiyai i had to seek further advice on the translation and meaning, The following was what i was told at Rara Sahib, Dharampur, Fatehgargh, Ratwara, Sultanpur Lodhi by various sants who all say this

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

(In the Golden Age of Satjug God in order to decieve the demon king Raja Bali you created the form of Baavan the dwarf who had only 8 kalaa. you were pleased to see him decieve Bali)

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

(In the Silver age known as Treta you created a manifestation in the Name of Ram who belonged to the Raghu clan, dynasty. Due to the work required in order to return the righteousness to the world the 8 kalaa manifestation would have been incapable of doing this work and for this reason a greater manifestation of 14 kalaa was created.)

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

(in the Brass Age known as Dwapur you created a manifestation known as Sri Krishna. The world was perishing in sin and the avtar of Ram with his limited powers to 14 Kalaa was unable to help due to this a greater avtaar was required and for that reason the 16 kalaa manifestaion of Vishnu was sent. In according to your will and with your aid killed Mur the demon. By sending this great avtaar you gave Ugarsain the grandfather of Sri Krishan a kingdom and aided all of your devotees with fearlessness.)

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

(In he dark age known as Kaljug when the world was drowning with the sin of mankind. At this point a manifestation even with the great power of Sri Krishna was helpless to the cause of the earth. Due to the limitations of every manifestation God who is the great deity himself came to the earth in the form of Nanak, Angad and Amar Das who had infinate powers due to Nanak being the Lord)

According to the viakhiya which is written in the hand copies of giani pritam singh from the santhiya of Sant Gurbachan Singh and handwritten Tikas of Sant Jagjeet Singh it shows that Guru Nanak Dev Ji were not previously manifested to the world as Krishna, Bawan and Ram. "

Like Palvinder Singh stated Bawan, Ram and Krishna were the manifestations of Vishnu. Vishnu is considered as Hari due to his Sattva Gun. However due to the great sin during the age of Kaljug Vishnu was unable to come down and deal with the issues that were present at the time of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Vishnu also has only one more Avtar left in this jug which is kalki and will come at the end of this jug. Due to this God the great life force had to intervene personally. Guru Nanak Dev Ji are not a manifestation of Vishnu but of God

[sikha]

As far as i have been told, Krishna is also considered an avatar of God in Gurmat.

He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...=7&id=46421

the above shabad of the indian avatars is a praise to God, and not vishnu if im correct.

i apologise if i have said anything wrong

[N30S1NGH]

I think people are limiting sri guru nanak dev ji(nirankari jot) by their own standards. I wouldnt do this, its like almost you are putting rules ban on vahiguroo himself on how does he transcedent which form he takes etc... We all agree sri guru nanak dev ji was both nirgun and sargun. My posts was referred to sri guru nanak dev ji nirgun saroop which is vahiguroo not sargun (physical birth in 1469).

Anyway here is another attempt, according to b40 janamsakhis. Suleman tape also confirms this. Also all puratan samparda's beleives in this:

According to Janam Sakhi Lord Satguru Nanak Dev Ji will come in 10 pargat rup(10 gurus), eleventh form as Shabad and 72 times as nit avtaar or in the form of saints. Names of those saints are given in the Sau Sakhis written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.

If sri guru nanak dev ji who is nirankari jot(vahiguroo) can came as 72 nit avtars then why couldnt he come as previous hari/pooran avtars- ram, krishan etc? as suggested by bhai gurdas ji varan. Surely if you studied at taksal and beleive in six levels of avtar then i m sure you know hari avtar is higher than nit avtar. Also many high avastha wale gurmukhs beleives in kalki avtar (chaubisva avtar) who is yet to come will be sri guru gobind singh ji. so how does that fit in 24th avtar which is yet to come is indeed avtar of vishnu?

Also some may find this shocking, all this talk about levels of avtars /previous janams of gurus is good to know information to increase sharda but in the essence its of no avail for us nor its of any avail for spiritual orders of hinduism who beleive in krishan maharaj,ram because we sikhs and many spiritual orders in hinduism are told to concentrate on shabad surat marg/shabad guru, rise above from three avasthas- strive for turiya by gyan given by guru avtars/poran hari avtars- sri guru nanak dev ji ,sri krishan/ram chandar ji. Shabad guru is highest and shabad guru is anadi. That was tat gyan given to us sikhs by our guru's. so lets not forget about the real goal/aim in the course of discussing this topic.

[tableji]

hold on a second. The Gurus also had millions and millions of lives didnt they? They were all human! They were all born in this earth the way we were.

They wrote about their experiences and discussions with god in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

We can be like them, if we chose to recognise who we are.

Everyone is bound by vahegurus hukam, even the Gurus.

[OhTwadi]

Everyone is bound by vahegurus hukam, even the Gurus.

no. guru shaib is not "bound" by waheguru's hukum

sBu ko qyrY vis Agm Agocrw ]

sabh ko thaerai vas agam agocharaa ||

Everyone is under Your power, O inaccessible, unfathomable Lord.

qU Bgqw kY vis Bgqw qwxu qyrw ]10]

thoo bhagathaa kai vas bhagathaa thaan thaeraa ||10||

You are under the control of Your devotees; You are the strength of Your devotees. ||10||

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3547

[tableji]

hukmI hovin Awkwr hukmu n kihAw jweI

hukamee hovan aakaar hukam n kehiaa jaaee ||

By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.

hukmI hovin jIA hukim imlY vifAweI

hukamee hovan jeea hukam milai vaddiaaee ||

By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.

hukmI auqmu nIcu hukim iliK duK suK pweIAih

hukamee outham neech hukam likh dhukh sukh paaeeahi ||

By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

ieknw hukmI bKsIs ieik hukmI sdw BvweIAih

eikanaa hukamee bakhasees eik hukamee sadhaa bhavaaeeahi ||

Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie

hukamai a(n)dhar sabh ko baahar hukam n koe ||

Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

nwnk hukmY jy buJY q haumY khY n koie

naanak hukamai jae bujhai th houmai kehai n koe ||2||

O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||

Also according to the shabad below. In order to escape reincarnation and pain, you must meet the True Guru. Guruji was born in this world, does that mean he had not met The True Guru, until this incarnation?

siqguir imilAY Pyru n pvY jnm mrx duKu jwie ]

sathigur miliai faer n pavai janam maran dhukh jaae ||

Meeting with the True Guru, you shall not have to go through the cycle of reincarnation again; the pains of birth and death will be taken away.

Everyone is bound by vahegurus hukam, even the Gurus.

no. guru shaib is not "bound" by waheguru's hukum

sBu ko qyrY vis Agm Agocrw ]

sabh ko thaerai vas agam agocharaa ||

Everyone is under Your power, O inaccessible, unfathomable Lord.

qU Bgqw kY vis Bgqw qwxu qyrw ]10]

thoo bhagathaa kai vas bhagathaa thaan thaeraa ||10||

You are under the control of Your devotees; You are the strength of Your devotees. ||10||

http://sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3547

[OhTwadi]

^^ there is a much deeper meaning to that pauri from japji sahib that you have posted.

i suggest you listen to katha on www.gurmatveechar.com to understand it a bit more.

i still stand by my view