~! Danger Of Bhausaria Mindset In The Panth !~

[jss]

i think some of us need to read the lines "khalsa mero roop hai khaas" and actually do some deeper vichar on it...it's not the superficial roop that guru ji is talking about...so its pointless to use that in arguments trying to convince people of keski... shows only a literal understanding

[Mehtab Singh]

me likes the jooneetee (unity)

[immortal57]

i think some of us need to read the lines "khalsa mero roop hai khaas" and actually do some deeper vichar on it...it's not the superficial roop that guru ji is talking about...so its pointless to use that in arguments trying to convince people of keski... shows only a literal understanding

yes jss, we know nothing, please enlighten us with your higher knowledge

what does this line actually mean?

of course you are always right and we are always wrong huna?

if only we had the massive understanding u have

[Guest peacemaker]

The years have tainted this utopian vision of "Khalistan", my friend. I don't know if many people want it so much now. Especially not with any bloodshed on either side.

[proactive]

Can the mods please delete any off topic posts especially ones about keski as kakaar etc. This thread is about MINDSET and not about discussing specific beliefs.

Charandoor Singh,

1. I have not at all tried to turn this into a debate against Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. I posted Gyani Sher Singh's lecture in response to the comments you made about missionaries doing a 'Sterling Job'? Did I not make that clear? You seem to be in the habit of missing the obvious and looking into too far into something without understanding what I write.

In his lecture Gyani Sher Singh mentions that someone from a missionary background has published a pamphlet that says that before the British times no one had heard of Dasam Granth. I have not seen that pamphlet so I cannot comment on what it says. If it does say that then the author iof that pamphlet does not deserve the title of a scholar because he has made a very basic error which even someone with a basic knowledge of Dasam Granth would not have made. The rest of the lecture had no credibility given the paranoid attempt to blame the British for dressing some Sikhs up in order to subvert the belief in Dasam Granth. I wasn't missing the obvious, just commenting on what you wrote.

2. Again why are you hitting out with the'Baba said this story', I simply mentioned that I was told by a Gyani and that I cannot commnent much on it as I have not seen the evidence myself. Dude why hit out with the same weak arguement? Your are playing your broken record in the wrong store.

My comment likening 'the giani told me' story as another one of 'baba said so' mindset obviously totally went over your head. How are you any different from Gyani Sher Singh, he believes in paranoid stories about British conspiracies about Dasam Granth and you bring out an unsubstantiated story about only 4-5 people being left in the final Rehat Maryada committee meeting that some gyani told you. You hedge your bets by asking for someone to investigate but the very fact that you needed to use this story and then in the next sentence you state that the UNSUBSTANTIATED story is a basis to then attack the Panth Pranvit status of the Rehat Maryada and yet you accuse me of having a weak argument! Just to help you with the above statement perhaps I should make this a bit easier for you. I heard from a giani that Singh A who is the pardhan of a Gurdwara committee is taking bribes. I have no evidence for this and perhaps someone can investigate. But the story the Giani told me i true about Singh A makes it clear that Singh A is not worthy of being a Pardhan of a Gurdwara commitee! Unless you know the truth of the story or are willing to investigate it further yourself then there is no need to mention it. Giving the disclaimer 'if true' is the same as saying 'allegedly' just to air an argument which is unsubstantiated but helps to attack the person or stance that one is against.

If the people who you now claim had a problem with the final maryada then surely they would have made their views known and the Panth Pranvit status that the Rehat Maryada obtained would have been scuttled. But I think you are aware that some of the followers of these very Babas have a very high opinion of the status that these Babas held with the Sikhs in the 30s and 40s which is out of proportion of what status they actually held. That being said apart from the ridiculous conspiracy stories emanating from their followers there is very little evidence that the way the Rehat Maryada was in any way untoward.

I'm glad you share the majority mindset that books such as Suraj Parkash are not 100% true and have the bias of their authors. This is not the mindset which you are defending. The Nihangs that I have met believe that Suraj Parkash is 100% true giving almost in my view the level of Gurbani. I agree with you that these texts whether Bhai Mani Singh Janamsakhi or Makka Madine Di Goshti need to read taking into account various analytical methods available to the researcher.

Most taksalis choose not to eat Chatka, yet influential figures such as Gyani Thakur Singh Ji have commented on why it is legitimate for Nihang Singhs to eat Chatka

This is a strange comment, are you sure this is correct. Most Taksalis choose not to eat Jhatka? So you are implying that some do? This is the first I have heard of this given that the DDT Rehat Maryada makes it clear that ALL meat and not just Halal is banned. Again you are making insubstantiated comments to try and link DDT more closely with Nihangs. I would be interested to know who these members of DDT are that chose to eat Jhatka as the DDT Rehat Maryada makes clear that meat (both Jhatka and Halal) is forbidden and anyone eating these or meat killed in any other way is a TRAITOR to the Guru. I have a sneaking suspicion that what you have written is another one of the 'giani told me' stories because I would be hesitant to believe that someone associated with DDT and their strict stance on ALL meat and ALL intoxicants would choose to eat meat. You might want to refresh your knowledge so please see the DDT site for their Rehat Maryada http://www.damdamitaksal.com/rehat.pdf

1984 just an historic event? Well I would say that if one organisation has it's head martyred defending the Durbar Sahib and the head of the other organisation rather than doing anything positive to help then makes common cause with the very person who attacked it in the first place then I would say that it shows a very obvious difference in mindset. We are not discussing ideology, we are discussing mindset. The mindset that says screw the rest of the panth, we want to help out madamji. To you pointing these things out is just a desperate attempt to highlight DDT and Nihang difference. No, it's an attempt to highlight what differences there are in mindset between DDT and Nihangs. No doubt Nihangs and their supporters would like us all to forget 1984 but the actions of Nihangs and more specifically Santa Singh were reprehensible.

- Your attack on ALL Nihang Singh, taksals and samprada' that believe in Sri Sarbloh Granth Ji. Nihangs Singhs are extreme for believing in 'Lord of the Ring types stories' about Granths, yet you have called DDT the middle way when they believe in the same granth.

- The clumping together of AKJ, Taksal and Singh Sabha when the evidently differ greatly on important issues (I am not saying there are not similarities and that both shouldnt work togeter). Yet, you scream in horror when any similiarities are made between DDT and Budha Dal, Mind you, many people I spoke to in India from various sides believed this was one of the main reasons from groups in India so strongly opposing the akhand path of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - they were scared of the what would happen if the Budha Dal and DDT carried on working together.

- Slave metality not limited to any one group of people. You cant say it exits in one jatha but the other jatha is free of it.

I tried not to take part in your obviously amateurish attempt to ambush me.

Let's look at your lame attempt.

I wrote-;

There are two extreme mindsets at present, the mindset that rejects anything to do with a Hindu influence and the mindset that accepts anything that is placed before it as long as there is an elaborate sakhi or some made up story behind it. One mindset can be called the Nang mindset and to a lesser degree Buddha Dal and the other by Bhasauria followers like Kala Afghana.

and

The same is the case with the other extreme, the Nangs and some factions of Buddha Dal. They will accept any story and anything as long as one of the Gurus is mentioned in the story. They will accept any text that is presented to them and consider it to be Gurbani. They wil believe in lords of the rings type stories about hidden texts and hidden knowledge!

The middle way of Sikhi is the Singh Sabha, AKJ and DDT.

You wrote;

Although you can try and claim your remarks were only against certain Nihangs, you very clearly attacked the belief in Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji which is something that all Nihang Singhs and others hold very dear. So don’t accuse me of not reading you posts properly. Try and cover it up as much as you like, but yet again you knowingly attacked all Nihang Singhs.

and again

Your attack on ALL Nihang Singh, taksals and samprada' that believe in Sri Sarbloh Granth Ji. Nihangs Singhs are extreme for believing in 'Lord of the Ring types stories' about Granths, yet you have called DDT the middle way when they believe in the same granth.

Nice try, first accuse me referring to ALL Budha Dal and not just sections of it and ALL Nangs, then expand the argument to include Sarbloh Granth that I had not mentioned before you did and then using that text's acceptance as a basis of whether or not one mindset belongs to the extreme or the middle way. Perhaps the reference to reference to a text being considered Gurbani has diverted you. Perhaps I should have just written 'like Gurbani'. But in my view many texts are considered as 100% truth by Nangs.

[Charandhoor Singh]

Proactive,

The view of English creating controverises in Sikh tradition is one which is held by most sampradava', I think its also something Sant Gurbuchan Singh mentions in his writings. You choose not to believe it, thats fine; but I think it makes more historical sense than the 'Brahmins influenced dasam granth theory'. Obviously there is difference of opinion here, as it is not necessarily what this topic is about lets agree to disagree... what is important as mentioned in the opening post is the paranio resulting from the writings from Si Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji which lead to editing Sri Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I have met students from taksal who eat jhatka, they are obviously in the minority. Whats important is not whether or not they eat it, but whether or not they have a problem with Nihang Singhs eating Chatka. As mentioned the issue of chatka and sukha do not get in the way of Taksalis and Nihang Singhs working together. You failed to reply to your blatant lie of them only working with non chatka eating and non sukha eating nihang singhs.

I personally dont have that much of a problem with the SGPC maryada, I just dont like people following it like its bani. If the panth follows it then why do people (including yourself it appears) have a problem with Nihang Singhs eating Chatka???? I agree that perhaps I shouldn't have brought up that point; A Baba told me story means that as he told me I will believe it no matter what. The context in which I mentioned it and other theoies is that it is a point been raised by someone and is something worth researching.

If not Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji, can you please tell me which Granth it is that you are talking about when you say Nihang Singhs believe in Lord of the Rings type stories? There is no Granth which one group of Nihangs believe that another doesnt, so no matter who it is you think you are attacking you are attacking ALL Nihang Singhs. If you are referring to Sri Sarbloh Granth you did this knowingly, if it is a different text perhaps unknowingly... in which case I would like to know which text you are referring to. Is there any Granth whcih the Budha Dal believes in that DDT doesnt believe in?

Is the mentality of following personalities/ideas without researching limited to certain groups or would you agree that its present everywhere? I think this is the third time I am asking. Or is it that some jathas are closer are more closer to the truth than other so it doesnt matter if members are following blindly because they are not doing anything wrong?

Rather than just trying to find weaknesses in my arguement please try and actually respond to my points, particuarly where you appear to be stating false facts; i.e. Taksal working closer with non-chatka eating non-sukha drinking nihangs. Searching for weaknesses in arguements can continue but it becomes rather pointless and discussion is less fruitful.

Like Proactive I ask mods to delete the posts that are irrelevant. Fateh

[blinded]

WAHEGURU

[N30S1NGH]

I hope everyone had a great time in sri guru nanak dev ji gurpurb. I know I certainly did,

they did arti-arta shabad kirtan at our local gurdwara it was vibrating, it almost felt

like all the devi's/devta's, bhramgyanis karaks, avtars doing foola di varka on sri guru

nanak dev nirankari jot in its sargun roop sitting on a lotus. Anyway back to the topic.

Few points i forgot to mention earlier, proactive posts on sgpc being premium until 1980's

reminded me:

1. I have no issues with sgpc maryada, it was great effort, could be little better eg- if they could have shed some light different techniques of naam jaap etc. Nevertheless, it was great effort, had no complaints overall.

However, SGPC being premium until 1980 is an understatement of an century. SGPC as a organization in influence of bhausaria mindset before 1980 have also tried to tamper with gurbani this is mentioned in my orginal post where i have scanned pages from references, they have tried change mangal arounds along with their implementation of newly introduced pad ched saroops of guru maharaj saroops instead of larivar.

The various Jatha's and samparada's of the time got together with a common goal and had several meetings at different venues to do veechar on this issue. Such meetings occured at Sri Amritsar Sahib, Damdama Sahib, Keeratpur Sahib, Rara Sahib and one of the largest at Bhinder Kalaan on the 11th of September, 1959, at which time all the big time saints of the day came together and created a committee, which consisted of the following Mahpursh:

- Sant Baba Hari Singh Ji Kahaarpurieea

- Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale

- Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara Shib

- Sant Ishar Singh Ji Kalairaa(n) (Nanaksar)

- Sant Baba Bhagvaan Singh Ji Rairoo Sahib

2. I forgot to mention earlier but sgpc/singh sabha as organization is also not immune from caste discrimation. In order to be in their commitee you have to be jatt this is confirmed by my uncle who is a jatt and was at one point singh sabha member in the gurdwara back in calcutta. This caste discrimation issue exist all along organizations in the panth, its appears this problem is more deep rooted in the sikhs, perhaps its a cultural issue somehow got in sikh dharam. I can proudly say only organizations which are immune from this caste discrminations is AKJ, Dodra, 3ho, Nanaksar, Rara Sahib/Hoti Mardan/Reru/Harkhowale and mehta bhindran and five tatkhs of the panth.

Thats it for now.

[N30S1NGH]

sorry for being off topic i like to clarify to terisharan, sikh and khalsa have two different meanings depending on the context,

Here is an example of sikh from gurbani, guru ji giving updesh to jaigaso:

Gur Satgur Ka Jo Sikh Akhaai So Bhalke Uth Har Naam Dhiyawai.

Udham Kare Bhalke Parbhati Isnan Kare Amritsar Naawai.

Updes Guru Har Har Jap Jaape Sabh Kilwikh Pap Dokh Leh Jaawai.

Phir Chare Diwas Gurbani Gaawai Behndean Uthdean Har Naam Dhiyawai.

Jo Sas Giras Dhiyae Mera Har Har So Gur Sikh Guru Man Bhaawai.

Jis No Dyal Howai Mera Soami Tis Gursikh Guru Updesh Sunawai.

Jan Nanak Dhur Mange Tis Gur Sikh Ki Jo Aap Jape Awreh Naam Japaawai. (305)

===

Here is an example of khalsa from gurbani (sri sarbloh granth), guru ji describing khalsa:

Atam Ras Neh Jannehi Sio Haie Khalsa Dev,

Prab Meh Mo Meh Tas Meh Ranchak Naeh Bhaid(v) ||

The one who has entered the sphere of atma(self), he alone is worthy of the title of the khalsa, he becomes one with me the guru and ultimately God.There is no difference.

Khalsa and sikh are two different terms if we do vichar on those two quotes, above quote- guru is giving updesh to sikh, if you wish to be called sikh of the guru, get up in amritvela and recite naam on amrit vela, do udham(try). I dont think above quote is refer to khalsa who is been described as atamrassaie in 2nd quote because atamgyani/atamrasaie/bhramgyani already tasted atam ras, amrit ras and is fully imbued in naam, there is noo need for him/her to udham or get up, gurmukh samadhi in atam ras is nirodh is ever lasting, naam is running 24/7- rom rom har dhavaie.

Now question if terms sikhs/khalsa only refers to elite amritdhari who is wearing keski and bana is different topic all together, it all depends, how much you think/vichar out of box, how much you khoj, how much you try to manage decipher sikh sants uchi soochni via almast mahapursh ramja. i wont argue over and over again if sikh/khalsa terms only refers to new age amritdharis who think they are elite from everyone else.

Terisharan and others this post is just to clarify further if you like to discuss this post or debate it kindly create another topic, otherwise we be guilty of hijacking this topic.

[TeriSharan.]

Namstang veera, Khalsa, gurmukh, sant, brahmgyani, gursikh I personally think are the same.

Guru sahiban's teachings apply to everyone, their same for everybody. Whether ur a sant, the khalsa rehit still applies to you. Thats the reason guru gobind singh jee made amrit sanchar, so everyone sticks to one rehit and lives a virtuous life, alongside naam, baania and seva.

Satguroo Nanak is the giver of naam, with out naam the whole world is crazy. Namastang when we meet with guru jee kirpaa, I will love to sit down with you and Jaap naam and read gurbani together. I see you have lots of pyaar!!

Nowadays their are so many so called mahapurshs and sants. You see the true sants and mahapursh never let anyone mutha tekh them and dont differtentiate themselves from the sangat. They see themselves as the dust of the sangats feet. They keep themselves gutp and keep on the down low, so nobody finds out about their inner being.